Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:A post I made on facebook today

Good evening family and friends.  I hope all is well.  Like all of you, I have been bombarded over the last 10 days with a myriad of notifications and posts about race, police brutality, protests, rioting etc.  Normally I don’t post on this medium, but I have seen too many people I care about being mislead by false ideology to remain silent. 
Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  I am not arrogant enough to think that everyone will come to the same conclusions I have, but at the same time I refuse to see people I care about take up positions I think are wrongheaded or even dangerous because no one had the temerity to make a counter argument. 
With all the things going around at current, it would be too long to address every issue in one post.  To that end, I am going to try and tackle one topic or line of thought at a time in a series of posts over the next few weeks. 
 
The first idea I want to touch on is the defacto rationalization for the level of violence and unrest that has accompanied the current demonstrations.  You may have heard someone say “MLK demonstrated peacefully, you didn’t listen.  We kneeled and you didn’t listen, what do you expect.” 
 
First let me say this: the concept of limited government and individual rights mandates that in a civil society, we cannot violate the rights of innocent people just based on our perceived grievance.  To do so is not seeking justice, that is just imposing our own form of tyranny.  
 
Second, this line of thought betrays the true legacy of MLK.  MLK was one of the most charismatic, eloquent, and inspirational thought leaders of our time.  He had a clear message, a demonstrable grievance, and a set of solutions that made room for every man woman and child under the promise of our country’s founding, not the rejection there of.   He faced indiscriminate violence, he faced abuse from the state, and he faced a level of tangible racial discrimination that no one in my generation will ever truly understand.  Most importantly, he won.  Although his life was tragically snuffed out far before his time, We passed the Civil rights act, we passed the Voting rights act, we passed the Community reinvestment act in 1975 to reform banking and address redlining.  We declared a War on poverty and have invested trillions upon trillions of dollars redistributing wealth to people on the lower end of the income distribution.  Moreover, in the wake of his example black men and women have ascended to seats of power both in the corporate world, and the halls of government across America.  So much so that Black America essentially owns the largest political party in the country.  That party controls almost all major urban areas in the country.  As such, it should be no surprise to anyone that the rate of black shootings by police officers in those cities has decreased by 75% since his passing, while the rate for white Americans has flatlined.  So much so that every credible study demonstrates that a white officer is now less likely to pull the trigger with a black subject than an officer of color in the same situation.
 
Third, I fundamentally reject the Idea that America is a racist country, founded on racist principles, or that in any way it was designed to proliferate racial division.  I fundamentally accept the declaration of independence and the promise that it makes to every man woman and child of every race color or creed.  As such I rejected Collin Kaepernick’s protest and the narrative that he wanted to advance about the country at large.  Through the miracle of federalism, just because one person, group, or region disagrees with an idea or political movement that does not mean that other parts of the country will not adopt them.  Also, in a free market society individuals and corporations can promote, support or fund causes independent of a broad consensus.  Even though his protest was not widely embraced the NFL subsequently enacted programs to reach out to and support the black community.  Collin Himself became a very well-paid spokesman for one of the most influential corporations in the world.   On his word alone, they shut down an entire line of products because he didn’t like the imagery of the Betsy Ross Flag.  In addition, the most conservative administration in the last 40 years passed criminal justice reform through the first step act.  Seven Thousand Plus prisoners were released through the program.  Places like New York, California, and others adopted the bail reform laws suggested by the player coalition headed by Anquan Boldin.  During the Covid 19 outbreak, liberal governors released another 67 thousand prisoners were released from state prison.  In Minneapolis, where George Floyd was killed, The liberal city council just appointed a reform police Chief that is a person of color and they elected Keith Ellison, a black man, as State Attorney General. 
 
So in conclusion, using aggression against innocent people is evil PERIOD.  Nothing gives you the right to take away the rights of another individual based on your feeling of grievance.  Martin Luther King’s stand was one of the most thoughtful and inspirational in history.  He did affect lasting change in this country and established a tangible, measurable, and meaningful bend in the way that black Americans are represented in places of authority and treated by said authority.  Collin Kaepernick’s protests were not universally accepted, but in a free society you don’t need everyone to agree with you to have your policies manifest themselves through charity or in local/state governments.  A lot of the programs that Kaepernick advocated have been adopted in jurisdictions across the country and we should be mature enough as a society to look at the results soberly and judiciously to adjudicate their results. 

You posted this on Facebook? What were the responses like?

(06-06-2020, 08:54 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]You posted this on Facebook? What were the responses like?

It's only been a little while.  I have no idea how its going to turn out.

Short version, I agree riots can’t be justified ever.

Unfortunately these agitators in the crowds of protestors are not just rioters, they see themselves as covert operatives sparking a new French Revolution.That’s the real danger allowing an insurrection to be dressed up as civil disobedience or civil outburst this is more than that, it’s a hostile insurrection that has to be put down.

Riots phase Out in a few days and remain limited to regional areas, this violence is spread coast to coast and on going over a week now.

Well Facebook sucks sooooo.....

Quote:That’s the real danger allowing an insurrection to be dressed up as civil disobedience

That's a great way of describing that.

(06-06-2020, 08:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:A post I made on facebook today

Good evening family and friends.  I hope all is well.  Like all of you, I have been bombarded over the last 10 days with a myriad of notifications and posts about race, police brutality, protests, rioting etc.  Normally I don’t post on this medium, but I have seen too many people I care about being mislead by false ideology to remain silent. 
Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  I am not arrogant enough to think that everyone will come to the same conclusions I have, but at the same time I refuse to see people I care about take up positions I think are wrongheaded or even dangerous because no one had the temerity to make a counter argument. 
With all the things going around at current, it would be too long to address every issue in one post.  To that end, I am going to try and tackle one topic or line of thought at a time in a series of posts over the next few weeks. 
 
The first idea I want to touch on is the defacto rationalization for the level of violence and unrest that has accompanied the current demonstrations.  You may have heard someone say “MLK demonstrated peacefully, you didn’t listen.  We kneeled and you didn’t listen, what do you expect.” 
 
First let me say this: the concept of limited government and individual rights mandates that in a civil society, we cannot violate the rights of innocent people just based on our perceived grievance.  To do so is not seeking justice, that is just imposing our own form of tyranny.  
 
Second, this line of thought betrays the true legacy of MLK.  MLK was one of the most charismatic, eloquent, and inspirational thought leaders of our time.  He had a clear message, a demonstrable grievance, and a set of solutions that made room for every man woman and child under the promise of our country’s founding, not the rejection there of.   He faced indiscriminate violence, he faced abuse from the state, and he faced a level of tangible racial discrimination that no one in my generation will ever truly understand.  Most importantly, he won.  Although his life was tragically snuffed out far before his time, We passed the Civil rights act, we passed the Voting rights act, we passed the Community reinvestment act in 1975 to reform banking and address redlining.  We declared a War on poverty and have invested trillions upon trillions of dollars redistributing wealth to people on the lower end of the income distribution.  Moreover, in the wake of his example black men and women have ascended to seats of power both in the corporate world, and the halls of government across America.  So much so that Black America essentially owns the largest political party in the country.  That party controls almost all major urban areas in the country.  As such, it should be no surprise to anyone that the rate of black shootings by police officers in those cities has decreased by 75% since his passing, while the rate for white Americans has flatlined.  So much so that every credible study demonstrates that a white officer is now less likely to pull the trigger with a black subject than an officer of color in the same situation.
 
Third, I fundamentally reject the Idea that America is a racist country, founded on racist principles, or that in any way it was designed to proliferate racial division.  I fundamentally accept the declaration of independence and the promise that it makes to every man woman and child of every race color or creed.  As such I rejected Collin Kaepernick’s protest and the narrative that he wanted to advance about the country at large.  Through the miracle of federalism, just because one person, group, or region disagrees with an idea or political movement that does not mean that other parts of the country will not adopt them.  Also, in a free market society individuals and corporations can promote, support or fund causes independent of a broad consensus.  Even though his protest was not widely embraced the NFL subsequently enacted programs to reach out to and support the black community.  Collin Himself became a very well-paid spokesman for one of the most influential corporations in the world.   On his word alone, they shut down an entire line of products because he didn’t like the imagery of the Betsy Ross Flag.  In addition, the most conservative administration in the last 40 years passed criminal justice reform through the first step act.  Seven Thousand Plus prisoners were released through the program.  Places like New York, California, and others adopted the bail reform laws suggested by the player coalition headed by Anquan Boldin.  During the Covid 19 outbreak, liberal governors released another 67 thousand prisoners were released from state prison.  In Minneapolis, where George Floyd was killed, The liberal city council just appointed a reform police Chief that is a person of color and they elected Keith Ellison, a black man, as State Attorney General. 
 
So in conclusion, using aggression against innocent people is evil PERIOD.  Nothing gives you the right to take away the rights of another individual based on your feeling of grievance.  Martin Luther King’s stand was one of the most thoughtful and inspirational in history.  He did affect lasting change in this country and established a tangible, measurable, and meaningful bend in the way that black Americans are represented in places of authority and treated by said authority.  Collin Kaepernick’s protests were not universally accepted, but in a free society you don’t need everyone to agree with you to have your policies manifest themselves through charity or in local/state governments.  A lot of the programs that Kaepernick advocated have been adopted in jurisdictions across the country and we should be mature enough as a society to look at the results soberly and judiciously to adjudicate their results. 

MOM?!?!

(06-06-2020, 08:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:A post I made on facebook today

Good evening family and friends.  I hope all is well.  Like all of you, I have been bombarded over the last 10 days with a myriad of notifications and posts about race, police brutality, protests, rioting etc.  Normally I don’t post on this medium, but I have seen too many people I care about being mislead by false ideology to remain silent. 
Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  I am not arrogant enough to think that everyone will come to the same conclusions I have, but at the same time I refuse to see people I care about take up positions I think are wrongheaded or even dangerous because no one had the temerity to make a counter argument. 
With all the things going around at current, it would be too long to address every issue in one post.  To that end, I am going to try and tackle one topic or line of thought at a time in a series of posts over the next few weeks. 
 
The first idea I want to touch on is the defacto rationalization for the level of violence and unrest that has accompanied the current demonstrations.  You may have heard someone say “MLK demonstrated peacefully, you didn’t listen.  We kneeled and you didn’t listen, what do you expect.” 
 
First let me say this: the concept of limited government and individual rights mandates that in a civil society, we cannot violate the rights of innocent people just based on our perceived grievance.  To do so is not seeking justice, that is just imposing our own form of tyranny.  
 
Second, this line of thought betrays the true legacy of MLK.  MLK was one of the most charismatic, eloquent, and inspirational thought leaders of our time.  He had a clear message, a demonstrable grievance, and a set of solutions that made room for every man woman and child under the promise of our country’s founding, not the rejection there of.   He faced indiscriminate violence, he faced abuse from the state, and he faced a level of tangible racial discrimination that no one in my generation will ever truly understand.  Most importantly, he won.  Although his life was tragically snuffed out far before his time, We passed the Civil rights act, we passed the Voting rights act, we passed the Community reinvestment act in 1975 to reform banking and address redlining.  We declared a War on poverty and have invested trillions upon trillions of dollars redistributing wealth to people on the lower end of the income distribution.  Moreover, in the wake of his example black men and women have ascended to seats of power both in the corporate world, and the halls of government across America.  So much so that Black America essentially owns the largest political party in the country.  That party controls almost all major urban areas in the country.  As such, it should be no surprise to anyone that the rate of black shootings by police officers in those cities has decreased by 75% since his passing, while the rate for white Americans has flatlined.  So much so that every credible study demonstrates that a white officer is now less likely to pull the trigger with a black subject than an officer of color in the same situation.
 
Third, I fundamentally reject the Idea that America is a racist country, founded on racist principles, or that in any way it was designed to proliferate racial division.  I fundamentally accept the declaration of independence and the promise that it makes to every man woman and child of every race color or creed.  As such I rejected Collin Kaepernick’s protest and the narrative that he wanted to advance about the country at large.  Through the miracle of federalism, just because one person, group, or region disagrees with an idea or political movement that does not mean that other parts of the country will not adopt them.  Also, in a free market society individuals and corporations can promote, support or fund causes independent of a broad consensus.  Even though his protest was not widely embraced the NFL subsequently enacted programs to reach out to and support the black community.  Collin Himself became a very well-paid spokesman for one of the most influential corporations in the world.   On his word alone, they shut down an entire line of products because he didn’t like the imagery of the Betsy Ross Flag.  In addition, the most conservative administration in the last 40 years passed criminal justice reform through the first step act.  Seven Thousand Plus prisoners were released through the program.  Places like New York, California, and others adopted the bail reform laws suggested by the player coalition headed by Anquan Boldin.  During the Covid 19 outbreak, liberal governors released another 67 thousand prisoners were released from state prison.  In Minneapolis, where George Floyd was killed, The liberal city council just appointed a reform police Chief that is a person of color and they elected Keith Ellison, a black man, as State Attorney General. 
 
So in conclusion, using aggression against innocent people is evil PERIOD.  Nothing gives you the right to take away the rights of another individual based on your feeling of grievance.  Martin Luther King’s stand was one of the most thoughtful and inspirational in history.  He did affect lasting change in this country and established a tangible, measurable, and meaningful bend in the way that black Americans are represented in places of authority and treated by said authority.  Collin Kaepernick’s protests were not universally accepted, but in a free society you don’t need everyone to agree with you to have your policies manifest themselves through charity or in local/state governments.  A lot of the programs that Kaepernick advocated have been adopted in jurisdictions across the country and we should be mature enough as a society to look at the results soberly and judiciously to adjudicate their results. 

Very well thought out and very well said.

(06-06-2020, 08:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:A post I made on facebook today

Good evening family and friends.  I hope all is well.  Like all of you, I have been bombarded over the last 10 days with a myriad of notifications and posts about race, police brutality, protests, rioting etc.  Normally I don’t post on this medium, but I have seen too many people I care about being mislead by false ideology to remain silent. 
Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  I am not arrogant enough to think that everyone will come to the same conclusions I have, but at the same time I refuse to see people I care about take up positions I think are wrongheaded or even dangerous because no one had the temerity to make a counter argument. 
With all the things going around at current, it would be too long to address every issue in one post.  To that end, I am going to try and tackle one topic or line of thought at a time in a series of posts over the next few weeks. 
 
The first idea I want to touch on is the defacto rationalization for the level of violence and unrest that has accompanied the current demonstrations.  You may have heard someone say “MLK demonstrated peacefully, you didn’t listen.  We kneeled and you didn’t listen, what do you expect.” 
 
First let me say this: the concept of limited government and individual rights mandates that in a civil society, we cannot violate the rights of innocent people just based on our perceived grievance.  To do so is not seeking justice, that is just imposing our own form of tyranny.  
 
Second, this line of thought betrays the true legacy of MLK.  MLK was one of the most charismatic, eloquent, and inspirational thought leaders of our time.  He had a clear message, a demonstrable grievance, and a set of solutions that made room for every man woman and child under the promise of our country’s founding, not the rejection there of.   He faced indiscriminate violence, he faced abuse from the state, and he faced a level of tangible racial discrimination that no one in my generation will ever truly understand.  Most importantly, he won.  Although his life was tragically snuffed out far before his time, We passed the Civil rights act, we passed the Voting rights act, we passed the Community reinvestment act in 1975 to reform banking and address redlining.  We declared a War on poverty and have invested trillions upon trillions of dollars redistributing wealth to people on the lower end of the income distribution.  Moreover, in the wake of his example black men and women have ascended to seats of power both in the corporate world, and the halls of government across America.  So much so that Black America essentially owns the largest political party in the country.  That party controls almost all major urban areas in the country.  As such, it should be no surprise to anyone that the rate of black shootings by police officers in those cities has decreased by 75% since his passing, while the rate for white Americans has flatlined.  So much so that every credible study demonstrates that a white officer is now less likely to pull the trigger with a black subject than an officer of color in the same situation.
 
Third, I fundamentally reject the Idea that America is a racist country, founded on racist principles, or that in any way it was designed to proliferate racial division.  I fundamentally accept the declaration of independence and the promise that it makes to every man woman and child of every race color or creed.  As such I rejected Collin Kaepernick’s protest and the narrative that he wanted to advance about the country at large.  Through the miracle of federalism, just because one person, group, or region disagrees with an idea or political movement that does not mean that other parts of the country will not adopt them.  Also, in a free market society individuals and corporations can promote, support or fund causes independent of a broad consensus.  Even though his protest was not widely embraced the NFL subsequently enacted programs to reach out to and support the black community.  Collin Himself became a very well-paid spokesman for one of the most influential corporations in the world.   On his word alone, they shut down an entire line of products because he didn’t like the imagery of the Betsy Ross Flag.  In addition, the most conservative administration in the last 40 years passed criminal justice reform through the first step act.  Seven Thousand Plus prisoners were released through the program.  Places like New York, California, and others adopted the bail reform laws suggested by the player coalition headed by Anquan Boldin.  During the Covid 19 outbreak, liberal governors released another 67 thousand prisoners were released from state prison.  In Minneapolis, where George Floyd was killed, The liberal city council just appointed a reform police Chief that is a person of color and they elected Keith Ellison, a black man, as State Attorney General. 
 
So in conclusion, using aggression against innocent people is evil PERIOD.  Nothing gives you the right to take away the rights of another individual based on your feeling of grievance.  Martin Luther King’s stand was one of the most thoughtful and inspirational in history.  He did affect lasting change in this country and established a tangible, measurable, and meaningful bend in the way that black Americans are represented in places of authority and treated by said authority.  Collin Kaepernick’s protests were not universally accepted, but in a free society you don’t need everyone to agree with you to have your policies manifest themselves through charity or in local/state governments.  A lot of the programs that Kaepernick advocated have been adopted in jurisdictions across the country and we should be mature enough as a society to look at the results soberly and judiciously to adjudicate their results. 

1) I agree that there's no justification for stealing stuff or for vandalism, but there's also no justification to even suggest that a few violent writers negate the first amendment rights of the many peaceful protesters. I hope they catch all the rioters, they should definitely try to.  But our right to peacefully protest is fundamental. A group of people cannot lose that right just because one of them broke some windows.

2) I agree that a lot of progress has been made, and I think killer Mike explained this point more eloquently than either of us. Unfortunately the progress has been uneven, and we have a national media that will highlight what's going on in one of our more troubled areas, and make people in areas that are better off feel under threat. My sincere opinion is that places like Atlanta, DC, Jacksonville and Orlando have made more progress in racial equality and harmony than places like Chicago, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc. The northern whites have a self-conception that racism is only a southern thing. As a child I was taught a lot about Montgomery bus boycotts and Birmingham jails but nothing about all the action MLK saw in Chicago.

3) America absolutely was founded as a racist place. The Declaration of Independence was an empty promise towards racial minorities. It wasn't until the passage of the 14th amendment in 1868 that the federal government made a commitment to promote and enforce racial equality. But this too became an empty promise in most states until about 1954. Now as it stands today, our constitution and our US code are very anti-racist. But society is obviously more than what you read in law books, and all of the previous codified racism is still affecting our social interactions and our economy. Some people say that we put too much emphasis on slavery conditions that ended over 150 years ago. I tend to agree actually. To the extent that black people are disadvantaged today, most of it is explained by segregated schools and federal mortgage redlining, not by slavery. Most white people in this country are either descended from people who came after 1865, or, if before 1865, they arrived in a northern state. And most of those who came after 1865 came with just a suitcase and hardly any money. Many were only a little better off than a slave who just got his freedom. And yes they are vastly ahead now. Let no one say this was due to ingenuity. These white people were rarely victimized by race riots. They were much more likely to get fair treatment from businessmen. They were much more likely to be included in social groups where business deals can get hashed out. And this was true in all 50 states.

1. No one is saying what you're suggesting. Even if you bring in the national guard, people can protest. Just don't loot anything, kill people. or burn stuff. It's not rocket science, and stop conflating the two. We aren't struggling with this concept. You are.

2. Agree.

3. This is a tired argument dragged out by the left to undermine American values. Yes. America's original sin was slavery. It was hotly contested at the time, and many people lamented the fact that they couldn't change it, while others saw it as a way of life. The price we paid came at a great cost. The traditions created a subculture of hate that fell out of favor in the 70's. What still exists are codified laws that infantilize blacks and treat them like they are less capable than whites, by a group of liberal elites that string them along for votes. So, yes. I agree that America still has racists. They just look like progressives.

(06-07-2020, 09:55 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]1. No one is saying what you're suggesting. Even if you bring in the national guard, people can protest. Just don't loot anything, kill people. or burn stuff. It's not rocket science, and stop conflating the two. We aren't struggling with this concept. You are.

Thank you.  

2. Agree.

I still don't know how Killer Mike can walk out on national television with a shirt that reads "Kill your masters" in the middle of a race riot and not get asked a question about it.  Makes no sense.  

3. This is a tired argument dragged out by the left to undermine American values. Yes. America's original sin was slavery. It was hotly contested at the time, and many people lamented the fact that they couldn't change it, while others saw it as a way of life. The price we paid came at a great cost. The traditions created a subculture of hate that fell out of favor in the 70's. What still exists are codified laws that infantilize blacks and treat them like they are less capable than whites, by a group of liberal elites that string them along for votes. So, yes. I agree that America still has racists. They just look like progressives.

Exactly right.  I would add, slavery was a sin of America at its founding, but the term "original sin" leads people to believe that somehow this was something that America started, spearheaded, or was even a leading factor in.  I think of all slaves that were exported from Africa, Ameirca took roughly 5%.  Also, it was the ideas of our founding that lead to the abolition of slavery and made the west, not the eastern cultures, the leading force to eradicate slavery around the world.  In some Muslim Countries when they tried to abolish slavery there were mass riots and the practice had to be reinstituted.  In the Eastern Slavetrade they practiced mass castration with a 90% mortality rate.  Think about that.  So in Muslim Countries if they wanted 100k slaves they would kill 900k through exsanguination following Castration.  

Also, There were two main philosophies in northern America: The Jamestown School and the Plymouth school.  In Plymouth and parts of New England they never had slaves.  This area pioneered the concept of individual rights.  This lead to the norths resistance to slavery, and the concept of limited government.  Jamestown was a different story.  Jamestown was based on the idea of collectivism and top down control.  This ideology is what lead to the idea that one group of people could marginalize the rights of others.  Ironically this ideology was the forefather of Jim Crow AND the identity politics left.  

Moreover, the left never acknowledges the fact that for the last 100 years, they have been, for the most part, in charge of most of the bureaucratic levers of power in this country.  They talk about income inequality, we have 72k pages of progressive income tax law, that was supposed to fix that.  They talk about redlining, we have Fannie MAe Fannie MAc Ginnie Mae Ginnie Mac, the FHA, State licensure for mortgage brokers, lenders, etc. and so on.  Not to mention the fact that you have the Federal reserve arbitrarily setting interest rates.  When will we actually see any questions about the results of the institutions that we fund as taxpayers.  

Also, there isn't really a correlation between discrimination and wealth disparity.  Just look at the current demographic breakdowns, Jews, Chinese and Japanese achieve at levels greater than whites.  Blacks Mexicans and Puerto Ricans achieve at levels less well off.  Did the evil sadistic racist puppet masters just forget about Hebrews?  If you ask the White Nationalists they will flatly tell you they hate them most of all.  What about the black community itself.  Why is there wealth Gap between white women and black women if its just about the color of your skin?  did we not redline against black women and only black men?  What about the various subsets of black Americans?  Why is it that black couples where both have college degrees have developed parody with their white counterparts?  Is this an oversight of systemic racism?  What about Caribbean's and West Indians?  Why have they historically been in relative Income parody with whites and not the native born American black population?  Let's look at other countries.  What about the Chinese minority in Malasia?  You don't have to ask whether or not they are discriminated against.  As you mentioned, there have been codes on the books discriminating against them with restrictions, quotas and the rest of it.  Why then have they historically outperformed the malaise majority?  You could say the same thing about Jews and Japanese outperforming domestic hispanics.  There were certain texts and memos in Russia written in German because at the time so many of the officers were German.   The idea that there should be some even representation of people in any economic activity is an ahistorical assertion of post modern multiculturalism.  The current disparities between blacks and whites is always talked about in terms of 400 years of racial discrimination and invidious standards, but no one stops to ask that if that's the case, why is there an even greater difference between Japanese Americans and Puerto Ricans for example?

America CANNOT BE a systemically racist country.  The economy is too diverse.  If one person doesn't like you because you are tall, black, red white or so on you can go right along to someone else who won't share that persons prejudice, taste, vision or whatever name you wish to give it.  If you have a good or service that has value then there will be someone who wants to buy it.  If you are credit worthy, then there will be a bank that will lend you money.  If you have an idea that is worthy of investment there will be someone willing to invest.  And if someone passes over you for an employee that is less qualified the market IMPOSES A COST.  IF someone lends money to an applicant that is less qualified, THE MARKET IMPOSES A COST.  If someone invests in a business that is less profitable than yours then THE MARKET IMPOSES A COST.  In fact it is the institutions that are most insulated from economic pressures that are most free to express their bias and prejudice.  That's why at the highest levels of academia we have tangible admitted discrimination against Asian Students, just like they discriminated against Jewish students in the past.  That's why state agencies can express political grievance through policy and so on.  

That's not to say that there aren't obstacles to building wealth in this country, but those obstacles were created by the very state apparatus that you and your ilk prescribe to UPLIFT the lower classes.  Regulations, licensure, poor schooling etc.  These are all entities created and wholly owned by the left.  But for whatever reason as long as you slap the word "fairness" on a box, it doesn't matter whatever fesis is inside or how many people wind up dying in the mind of leftist "do-gooders"

So how were the responses?

(06-07-2020, 11:20 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]So how were the responses?

I'm a hermit.   Dont have many friends.  

Ur welcome to leave one.

(06-07-2020, 09:55 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]1. No one is saying what you're suggesting. Even if you bring in the national guard, people can protest. Just don't loot anything, kill people. or burn stuff. It's not rocket science, and stop conflating the two. We aren't struggling with this concept. You are.

2. Agree.

3. This is a tired argument dragged out by the left to undermine American values. Yes. America's original sin was slavery. It was hotly contested at the time, and many people lamented the fact that they couldn't change it, while others saw it as a way of life. The price we paid came at a great cost. The traditions created a subculture of hate that fell out of favor in the 70's. What still exists are codified laws that infantilize blacks and treat them like they are less capable than whites, by a group of liberal elites that string them along for votes. So, yes. I agree that America still has racists. They just look like progressives.

1. You were struggling with this concept mere days ago. The right wing media made a clear play to discredit the protests based on rioting.  And you and JJ were totally on board with that conflation.

2. Glad we agree

3. These are the kinds of messages, most recently and prominently put out by Koch-funded grifter Candace Owens, that white people amplify to justify their commitment to doing nothing and sacrificing nothing.  I think it would be a noble cause to get more racial minority people on board with the Republican party.  Tying racial identity so strongly to political identity is dangerous.  So I'm all in favor of developing targeted messages to persuade at least some black people to change their allegiance, and then another message for each other minority group out there.  But telling blacks that they are being "infantilized" and kept "on the plantation" is not that message.  You have to establish that you understand why they vote that way now, that you accept it and even honor it, you just would like to point out a problem or two and you think they could be doing even better by voting with you.  Just like any other form of persuasion.  If 52% of blacks say that being black has hurt their prospects (and yes that's a real poll result from 2019), you're not going to change their mind with a wall of statistics or exhortations to grow up.  You have to empathize with their feelings first.

Lol. I can't take you seriously.

(06-07-2020, 12:58 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Lol. I can't take you seriously.

If you were having a nice, one on one discussion with a black man, and things turned to politics, and he revealed to you that he and his whole family vote with Democrats, would you tell him that he's infantile and living on a plantation?

Sorry you're too stupid to figure out what I was saying in the previous post. Democrats do try to infantilize blacks and use them to retain power. I can and have told my black friends this. Many of them agree with me. The ones that don't are coming around. I would also bring this up to any person I was having a conversation with, regardless of color. Do you even realize the subliminal message you are sending with that question? Do you honestly think I wouldn't shoot straight with someone because they are black? White liberals are so unaware of their own bigotry. The fact that you have to ask me that in a hypothetical reveals your actual lack of interaction with the black community.

(06-07-2020, 01:42 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry you're too stupid to figure out what I was saying in the previous post. Democrats do try to infantilize blacks and use them to retain power. I can and have told my black friends this. Many of them agree with me. The ones that don't are coming around. I would also bring this up to any person I was having a conversation with, regardless of color. Do you even realize the subliminal message you are sending with that question? Do you honestly think I wouldn't shoot straight with someone because they are black? White liberals are so unaware of their own bigotry. The fact that you have to ask me that in a hypothetical reveals your actual lack of interaction with the black community.

No, you're misunderstanding me, as usual.  
And you didn't answer my question. 
It's one thing to generically say Democrats (a large, amorphous group of people) infantilize blacks (another large group that can be defined various ways).  
It's quite another to say to the person you're conversing with, "You are infantile. You are brainwashed.  You are on the plantation."
You admit to saying the former, but that's not the question I asked.  I asked you whether you say the latter.  And I don't think you would.  Not because you wouldn't "shoot straight" based on race, but because you have a modicum of politeness and would avoid making a discussion like this personal, regardless of the race of who you're talking to.
Right?

Your question is stupid an reflects the traits I dislike most about you. A person can infantilize another without that person actually being an infant.

(06-07-2020, 02:24 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]Your question is stupid an reflects the traits I dislike most about you. A person can infantilize another without that person actually being an infant.

I'm sorry you think my question is stupid, but thank you for answering it. You are at least that polite. you wouldn't intentionally or directly call a conversation partner an infant. 
But you cannot be sure, no one can, that the person hearing words like this won't be insulted. When you tell someone, "The person you like is infantilizing you," they are very likely to hear, "you are an infant." Even though you didn't mean to say that. And if those words do land that way, they are likely to try to politely disengage from the conversation. They're less likely to tell you, "hey, don't call me an infant." So they will offer you very little in the way of meaningful feedback.
The emotional and empathetic part of your brain knows that I am right, intuitively. But you disengage that part of your brain before you come here, because you are trying to use logic only.

Now all of this is a digression from the point I'm trying to make, but it's a digression you forced me to take with your incessant need to land insults before you've fully understood what the other person is trying to get at.

The point I'm trying to make is that No one becomes a Fox News talking head or social media YouTube personality without understanding the art of persuasion.  The school of grifters going on Fox News and PragerU and Turning Point, they have spent years of their lives learning the art of debate and persuasion. They may be black, but they are not playing to a black audience.  They know that their words are more likely to offend black people than to convert them. But they are not trying to convert black people to conservative viewpoints. They are trying to inoculate white people like you from being persuaded by the much larger masses of black people saying that there truly are grievances in need of redress.