I have no delusions about this offense. It's bad. Gruden is too pass happy while the team has very little receiving threats. Chark is a our real receiver and we do not even have a #2. There is no threat at tight end while Robinson is are only solid tailback. The line is mediocre on top of it all. People love to put all the blame on Minshew but the truth is he is working with peanuts here. Lets for the sake of argument swap these QB's and see how they turn out.
Minshew: I could easily see him go on to win Super Bowls with this Chiefs team. Andy Reid would play through Minshew's strengths while he has weapons all over the field. Minshew has Accuracy and he has Moxy. This would also be the first time he would play under a good offensive line where he does not have to constantly run for his life.
Mahomes: He would be good but not great. Teams would double team Chark and Mahomes would look a lot like Minshew. Receivers not getting open while forcing the QB to run for his life to buy time. The Team would be better but with this current Coaching staff and talent it's probably a .500 team at best.
Minshew has missed a lot of open WRs. Having said that, he isn't the biggest problem. O-line is mediocre at best.
Reid would do wonders for/with Minshew but I am not sure they win a SB with him, even if they do I would bet it's only one.
With Mahomes we would have 3-4 wins at most and we likely miss the playoffs. He obviously wouldn't look like a superstar. His numbers would be better than Minshew but nothing like the ones he has right now.
Mahomes would be elite everywhere.
Minshew would be meh everywhere.
(11-02-2020, 03:01 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I have no delusions about this offense. It's bad. Gruden is too pass happy while the team has very little receiving threats. Chark is a our real receiver and we do not even have a #2. There is no threat at tight end while Robinson is are only solid tailback. The line is mediocre on top of it all. People love to put all the blame on Minshew but the truth is he is working with peanuts here. Lets for the sake of argument swap these QB's and see how they turn out.
Minshew: I could easily see him go on to win Super Bowls with this Chiefs team. Andy Reid would play through Minshew's strengths while he has weapons all over the field. Minshew has Accuracy and he has Moxy. This would also be the first time he would play under a good offensive line where he does not have to constantly run for his life.
Mahomes: He would be good but not great. Teams would double team Chark and Mahomes would look a lot like Minshew. Receivers not getting open while forcing the QB to run for his life to buy time. The Team would be better but with this current Coaching staff and talent it's probably a .500 team at best.
I think what your perspective is failing to realize here is the quarterback is the straw the stirs the drink. In other words, an elite QB makes everyone around them better. I have no doubt Mahomes would do that with this group, although definitely not to the extent that he has with the talent in KC. Mahomes' ability to either release the ball on time, or scramble to avoid sacks, makes his O-Line look statistically better than they are. That same ability to buy time with his feet gives his receivers more of an opportunity to get open and look better. The threat of the passing game in general forces defenses to call plays that can make them more vulnerable to the running attack, and make KC look better in their ground game. Minshew is not elite and and does not have those abilities to make those around him look better; NO CHANCE the Chiefs win the Super Bowl with him at QB. Chark has regressed and is openly frustrated when Minshew misses him on routine plays when he's open; same with our other receivers. Eifert was a real threat in Cincy (when he was healthy) and had 13 TD's in one season there, but has done little here. Our O-line was looking very good early with the running game, but looks worse now because teams are loading up against the run and daring us to throw it. Our O-Line also looks worse against the pass because Minshew holds the ball too long.
Peyton Manning was another guy that made people around him better. Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker were All Pros / Pro Bowlers with Peyton but could not replicate any success they had without him. We know all too well that Julius Thomas (a multi-year Pro Bowl TE in Denver) was not the same player with us as he was with Peyton. The O-Line rankings in Denver deteriorated rapidly after Peyton left because he always made quick decisions where the football would go and rarely took a sack, but the same guys were "Pro Bowlers" when Peyton was there. My point is, Minshew is not a franchise guy because he is not capable of making the guys around him better. We need to stop making excuses for him... he's not getting it done. Now the kid in Cincinnati... that kid is going to be good, and has that ability; and you can see it getting better every week. We need to find someone like that in the next draft.
(11-02-2020, 04:10 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 03:01 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I have no delusions about this offense. It's bad. Gruden is too pass happy while the team has very little receiving threats. Chark is a our real receiver and we do not even have a #2. There is no threat at tight end while Robinson is are only solid tailback. The line is mediocre on top of it all. People love to put all the blame on Minshew but the truth is he is working with peanuts here. Lets for the sake of argument swap these QB's and see how they turn out.
Minshew: I could easily see him go on to win Super Bowls with this Chiefs team. Andy Reid would play through Minshew's strengths while he has weapons all over the field. Minshew has Accuracy and he has Moxy. This would also be the first time he would play under a good offensive line where he does not have to constantly run for his life.
Mahomes: He would be good but not great. Teams would double team Chark and Mahomes would look a lot like Minshew. Receivers not getting open while forcing the QB to run for his life to buy time. The Team would be better but with this current Coaching staff and talent it's probably a .500 team at best.
I think what your perspective is failing to realize here is the quarterback is the straw the stirs the drink. In other words, an elite QB makes everyone around them better. I have no doubt Mahomes would do that with this group, although definitely not to the extent that he has with the talent in KC. Mahomes' ability to either release the ball on time, or scramble to avoid sacks, makes his O-Line look statistically better than they are. That same ability to buy time with his feet gives his receivers more of an opportunity to get open and look better. The threat of the passing game in general forces defenses to call plays that can make them more vulnerable to the running attack, and make KC look better in their ground game. Minshew is not elite and and does not have those abilities to make those around him look better; NO CHANCE the Chiefs win the Super Bowl with him at QB. Chark has regressed and is openly frustrated when Minshew misses him on routine plays when he's open; same with our other receivers. Eifert was a real threat in Cincy (when he was healthy) and had 13 TD's in one season there, but has done little here. Our O-line was looking very good early with the running game, but looks worse now because teams are loading up against the run and daring us to throw it. Our O-Line also looks worse against the pass because Minshew holds the ball too long.
Peyton Manning was another guy that made people around him better. Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker were All Pros / Pro Bowlers with Peyton but could not replicate any success they had without him. We know all too well that Julius Thomas (a multi-year Pro Bowl TE in Denver) was not the same player with us as he was with Peyton. The O-Line rankings in Denver deteriorated rapidly after Peyton left because he always made quick decisions where the football would go and rarely took a sack, but the same guys were "Pro Bowlers" when Peyton was there. My point is, Minshew is not a franchise guy because he is not capable of making the guys around him better. We need to stop making excuses for him... he's not getting it done. Now the kid in Cincinnati... that kid is going to be good, and has that ability; and you can see it getting better every week. We need to find someone like that in the next draft.
Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
(11-02-2020, 03:51 PM)TheSchmidt Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes would be elite everywhere.
Minshew would be meh everywhere.
Indeed. Mahomes would certainly have this team faring much much better than 1-6. I'll stop well short of saying our roster is anything close to that of the Chiefs (or our coach staff for that matter) but I wouldn't say Minshew is working with "peanuts"
It ain't all on Minshew, dude doesn't play defense, but he has missed open guys, we have a solid run game that could be better if teams had to respect the QB more, and he takes sacks when he holds the ball too long and refuses to make certain throws. Whether it is the injury, or his inability to scan the field better, or whatever it is... Mahomes doesn't have any of those issues.
(11-02-2020, 04:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:10 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]I think what your perspective is failing to realize here is the quarterback is the straw the stirs the drink. In other words, an elite QB makes everyone around them better. I have no doubt Mahomes would do that with this group, although definitely not to the extent that he has with the talent in KC. Mahomes' ability to either release the ball on time, or scramble to avoid sacks, makes his O-Line look statistically better than they are. That same ability to buy time with his feet gives his receivers more of an opportunity to get open and look better. The threat of the passing game in general forces defenses to call plays that can make them more vulnerable to the running attack, and make KC look better in their ground game. Minshew is not elite and and does not have those abilities to make those around him look better; NO CHANCE the Chiefs win the Super Bowl with him at QB. Chark has regressed and is openly frustrated when Minshew misses him on routine plays when he's open; same with our other receivers. Eifert was a real threat in Cincy (when he was healthy) and had 13 TD's in one season there, but has done little here. Our O-line was looking very good early with the running game, but looks worse now because teams are loading up against the run and daring us to throw it. Our O-Line also looks worse against the pass because Minshew holds the ball too long.
Peyton Manning was another guy that made people around him better. Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker were All Pros / Pro Bowlers with Peyton but could not replicate any success they had without him. We know all too well that Julius Thomas (a multi-year Pro Bowl TE in Denver) was not the same player with us as he was with Peyton. The O-Line rankings in Denver deteriorated rapidly after Peyton left because he always made quick decisions where the football would go and rarely took a sack, but the same guys were "Pro Bowlers" when Peyton was there. My point is, Minshew is not a franchise guy because he is not capable of making the guys around him better. We need to stop making excuses for him... he's not getting it done. Now the kid in Cincinnati... that kid is going to be good, and has that ability; and you can see it getting better every week. We need to find someone like that in the next draft.
Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
The KC team has talent, but none of those guys were producing even close the level they are now before Mahomes got there. You put Tyreek Hill into the Chicago offense (which is the exact same scheme as KC, btw) and you will see a speed guy become mediocre pretty quick with their QB situation. Same with Sammy Watkins. Kelce was a solid Tight End before, but his production has increased over 30% since Mahomes became the starter. So I would say, he has already proven that.
(11-02-2020, 04:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:10 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]I think what your perspective is failing to realize here is the quarterback is the straw the stirs the drink. In other words, an elite QB makes everyone around them better. I have no doubt Mahomes would do that with this group, although definitely not to the extent that he has with the talent in KC. Mahomes' ability to either release the ball on time, or scramble to avoid sacks, makes his O-Line look statistically better than they are. That same ability to buy time with his feet gives his receivers more of an opportunity to get open and look better. The threat of the passing game in general forces defenses to call plays that can make them more vulnerable to the running attack, and make KC look better in their ground game. Minshew is not elite and and does not have those abilities to make those around him look better; NO CHANCE the Chiefs win the Super Bowl with him at QB. Chark has regressed and is openly frustrated when Minshew misses him on routine plays when he's open; same with our other receivers. Eifert was a real threat in Cincy (when he was healthy) and had 13 TD's in one season there, but has done little here. Our O-line was looking very good early with the running game, but looks worse now because teams are loading up against the run and daring us to throw it. Our O-Line also looks worse against the pass because Minshew holds the ball too long.
Peyton Manning was another guy that made people around him better. Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker were All Pros / Pro Bowlers with Peyton but could not replicate any success they had without him. We know all too well that Julius Thomas (a multi-year Pro Bowl TE in Denver) was not the same player with us as he was with Peyton. The O-Line rankings in Denver deteriorated rapidly after Peyton left because he always made quick decisions where the football would go and rarely took a sack, but the same guys were "Pro Bowlers" when Peyton was there. My point is, Minshew is not a franchise guy because he is not capable of making the guys around him better. We need to stop making excuses for him... he's not getting it done. Now the kid in Cincinnati... that kid is going to be good, and has that ability; and you can see it getting better every week. We need to find someone like that in the next draft.
Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
I suppose we'll see when guys like Mercole Hardman and Demarcus Robinson go to other teams if those guys are legit or if they benefit not only from Mahomes but Hill as well.
But that speaks to the greatness of the front office and the patience too. You build the team and THEN you get the QB, that way they come in a situation where they aren't asked to save the franchise with trash around them.
(11-02-2020, 03:01 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes: He would be good but not great. Teams would double team Chark and Mahomes would look a lot like Minshew. Receivers not getting open while forcing the QB to run for his life to buy time. The Team would be better but with this current Coaching staff and talent it's probably a .500 team at best.
If Mahommes would look a lot like Minshew, I don't understand how you state the team would be better, potentially winning 8 games at best. Right now we're looking at 1-15 so if Mahommes would look a lot like Minshew, how do we win up to 7 more games?
(11-02-2020, 04:34 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 03:01 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes: He would be good but not great. Teams would double team Chark and Mahomes would look a lot like Minshew. Receivers not getting open while forcing the QB to run for his life to buy time. The Team would be better but with this current Coaching staff and talent it's probably a .500 team at best.
If Mahommes would look a lot like Minshew, I don't understand how you state the team would be better, potentially winning 8 games at best. Right now we're looking at 1-15 so if Mahommes would look a lot like Minshew, how do we win up to 7 more games?
Winning 8 games with this team would require a great QB. We do not have one; hence, we will finish 1-15.
(11-02-2020, 04:30 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
I suppose we'll see when guys like Mercole Hardman and Demarcus Robinson go to other teams if those guys are legit or if they benefit not only from Mahomes but Hill as well.
But that speaks to the greatness of the front office and the patience too. You build the team and THEN you get the QB, that way they come in a situation where they aren't asked to save the franchise with trash around them.
Exactly.
(11-02-2020, 04:29 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
The KC team has talent, but none of those guys were producing even close the level they are now before Mahomes got there. You put Tyreek Hill into the Chicago offense (which is the exact same scheme as KC, btw) and you will see a speed guy become mediocre pretty quick with their QB situation. Same with Sammy Watkins. Kelce was a solid Tight End before, but his production has increased over 30% since Mahomes became the starter. So I would say, he has already proven that.
In terms of production, yes, Hill, Watkins, and Kelce are all producing way more now. But those guys were already known as elite athletes, elite talents, in the NFL before Patrick showed up.
(11-02-2020, 04:30 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes has some physical skills that Manning and Brady could only dream of, but it remains to be seen if he can make mediocre players look great the way those two did. Mahomes came in to a stacked team.
I suppose we'll see when guys like Mercole Hardman and Demarcus Robinson go to other teams if those guys are legit or if they benefit not only from Mahomes but Hill as well.
But that speaks to the greatness of the front office and the patience too. You build the team and THEN you get the QB, that way they come in a situation where they aren't asked to save the franchise with trash around them.
Yep, build the team then get the QB
Patrick Mahomes on this team = Matthew Stafford
Gardner Minshew on the Kansas City Chiefs = a shorter Alex Smith
(11-02-2020, 06:28 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 04:30 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]I suppose we'll see when guys like Mercole Hardman and Demarcus Robinson go to other teams if those guys are legit or if they benefit not only from Mahomes but Hill as well.
But that speaks to the greatness of the front office and the patience too. You build the team and THEN you get the QB, that way they come in a situation where they aren't asked to save the franchise with trash around them.
Yep, build the team then get the QB
I don't think the order matters. Indianapolis is an example that went and got Manning as QB, then built the team around him. But we currently have neither the team, nor the QB. That is quite clear.
(11-02-2020, 06:45 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 06:28 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, build the team then get the QB
I don't think the order matters. Indianapolis is an example that went and got Manning as QB, then built the team around him. But we currently have neither the team, nor the QB. That is quite clear.
Very few QBs you can do that with and have success. Manning was one of the best QB prospects to come out like a Lawrence. I like BPA, but I wouldnt start a QB week 1 just because se drafted him with the 2nd pick. I dont like starting rookie QBs week 1 unless your team is already built and he's ready. A huge risk imo what Cincinnati has done with Burrow
(11-02-2020, 07:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 06:45 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the order matters. Indianapolis is an example that went and got Manning as QB, then built the team around him. But we currently have neither the team, nor the QB. That is quite clear.
I like BPA, but I wouldnt start a QB week 1 just because se drafted him with the 2nd pick. I dont like starting rookie QBs week 1 unless your team is already built and he's ready. A huge risk imo what Cincinnati has done with Burrow
I wouldn't disagree with that. But if BPA is close between a QB and an O-Lineman... I'm taking the QB. If Trevor Lawrence turns out to be the next Mahomes and Sewell turns out to be the next Joe Thomas... who would you rather have? There are examples each way you can point to whether you should sit or start your rookie QB in Week 1. I don't feel strongly about either way you do it... I just know you need to get a great QB at some point to really be successful.
(11-02-2020, 07:06 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 07:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]I like BPA, but I wouldnt start a QB week 1 just because se drafted him with the 2nd pick. I dont like starting rookie QBs week 1 unless your team is already built and he's ready. A huge risk imo what Cincinnati has done with Burrow
I wouldn't disagree with that. But if BPA is close between a QB and an O-Lineman... I'm taking the QB. If Trevor Lawrence turns out to be the next Mahomes and Sewell turns out to be the next Joe Thomas... who would you rather have? There are examples each way you can point to whether you should sit or start your rookie QB in Week 1. I don't feel strongly about either way you do it... I just know you need to get a great QB at some point to really be successful.
I added a few things to the coment. If it was really close I agree, but its gonna be hard to be close to a prospect like Sewell is. He is a LT prospect like Lawrence is a prospect to QB, one of the best in a long time. We will see how Fielss does in the playoffs
(11-02-2020, 07:11 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (11-02-2020, 07:06 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't disagree with that. But if BPA is close between a QB and an O-Lineman... I'm taking the QB. If Trevor Lawrence turns out to be the next Mahomes and Sewell turns out to be the next Joe Thomas... who would you rather have? There are examples each way you can point to whether you should sit or start your rookie QB in Week 1. I don't feel strongly about either way you do it... I just know you need to get a great QB at some point to really be successful.
I added a few things to the coment. If it was really close I agree, but its gonna be hard to be close to a prospect like Sewell is. He is a LT prospect like Lawrence is a prospect to QB, one of the best in a long time. We will see how Fielss does in the playoffs
Agreed. But say we are picking 3rd and they are both gone... then what? If you have similar grades on Fields and next BPA at any other position, I'm going QB.