(12-08-2020, 10:45 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 09:30 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]I'll go out on a limb and say that the second run with Coughlin was a worse hire than Gene Smith for this franchise.
When TC was hired I expressed my concern about his overreaching control freak tendencies.
Then he wanted to "win lunch" and I slowly started to come around to thinking maybe this was the discipline the young roster needed.
Should have stuck with my gut instinct.
He set this team back 3 years (or more) in roster development.
Vic Ketchman talked about this a few Ask Vic's ago.
He said TC was awful as a personnel manager during his tenure as HC/GM the first go round. Was a great coach though. It made no sense to bring him back as de facto GM and would have been a better hire as HC.
Hindsight and all but kinda makes sense. He could have brought that fiery "on time is 10 minutes late" attitude and still attracted some of the veterans he did without doing his usual kill the cap stuff. Although, it seems his fiery stuff is what drove away certain players, so Ramsey and Yan probably still walk...
But I wonder, what if we had fired everyone and hired a different GM and Coughlin came back as HC only.
How much different could it have been.... Possibly not at all but Vic made a good point that the thing he was the worst at during round 1 here is what we brought him back to be. Bit of a head scratcher.
(12-08-2020, 11:46 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2020, 12:07 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Talk about Battered Spouse Syndrome. This team has been trash for the majority of his time here. Why was Coughlin hired in the first place? It was because Caldwell was struggling with his job. The guy is trash.
Coughlin was brought in because Gus Bradley failed. How much of that failure (and how long it went on) is on Caldwell vs Khan remains unknown. Personally I think Khan brought TC in because he figured out that he needed someone to tell him (Khan) when he's not taking needed action like firing Bobblehead after his 3rd season when any other owner would've. I really like the approach DC used to build this team, he just missed on the first coach (a good choice at the time that didn't pan out) and the franchise QB and then held onto both mistakes for too long.
The two mistakes you listed, getting the wrong first coach and the wrong first QB, are forgivable and were already forgiven.
He did more than hold on to Bortles too long.
They extended Bortles, and that probably became a source of discontent for Jalen and Yan.
Extending Bortles was probably mostly Coughlin's idea, but I have to think Caldwell could have stopped it from happening.
The straw that broke the camel's back was extending Bortles and then going to the 2018 draft as if no QB was needed. We could have stayed put and got Lamar Jackson, and instead we got Taven Bryan.
Unfortunately it takes a few years to confirm that those were mistakes.
(12-08-2020, 12:41 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 10:45 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]When TC was hired I expressed my concern about his overreaching control freak tendencies.
Then he wanted to "win lunch" and I slowly started to come around to thinking maybe this was the discipline the young roster needed.
Should have stuck with my gut instinct.
He set this team back 3 years (or more) in roster development.
Vic Ketchman talked about this a few Ask Vic's ago.
He said TC was awful as a personnel manager during his tenure as HC/GM the first go round. Was a great coach though. It made no sense to bring him back as de facto GM and would have been a better hire as HC.
Hindsight and all but kinda makes sense. He could have brought that fiery "on time is 10 minutes late" attitude and still attracted some of the veterans he did without doing his usual kill the cap stuff. Although, it seems his fiery stuff is what drove away certain players, so Ramsey and Yan probably still walk...
But I wonder, what if we had fired everyone and hired a different GM and Coughlin came back as HC only.
How much different could it have been.... Possibly not at all but Vic made a good point that the thing he was the worst at during round 1 here is what we brought him back to be. Bit of a head scratcher.
Coughlin would have still pissed off all the same young talent he pissed off and they'd still have run for the hills ASAP to get the heck outta Jax.
(12-08-2020, 03:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 12:41 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Vic Ketchman talked about this a few Ask Vic's ago.
He said TC was awful as a personnel manager during his tenure as HC/GM the first go round. Was a great coach though. It made no sense to bring him back as de facto GM and would have been a better hire as HC.
Hindsight and all but kinda makes sense. He could have brought that fiery "on time is 10 minutes late" attitude and still attracted some of the veterans he did without doing his usual kill the cap stuff. Although, it seems his fiery stuff is what drove away certain players, so Ramsey and Yan probably still walk...
But I wonder, what if we had fired everyone and hired a different GM and Coughlin came back as HC only.
How much different could it have been.... Possibly not at all but Vic made a good point that the thing he was the worst at during round 1 here is what we brought him back to be. Bit of a head scratcher.
Coughlin would have still pissed off all the same young talent he pissed off and they'd still have run for the hills ASAP to get the heck outta Jax.
Perhaps, but maybe the CAP is in better order and we're not purging ourselves of the veteran talent that was okay with Coughlin's approach.
As we know it really was only Telvin Smith, Ramsey, and Yan that were p.o.'d at Coughlin and his ways.
But also getting rid of Campbell and Bouye and Malik Jackson and extending Bortles and giving Foles a big contract hurt as much or more than those 3 guys not being on the team. (Not to mention the likelihood of Coughlin the GM having a hand in the Fournette and Taven Bryan draft selections)
(12-06-2020, 04:00 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]The best 1-10 team ever. Obviously you either win or lose. No bonus for playing well.
This is honestly how I feel. I am still so lost as to why we traded away Campbell this year if we knew full well Yann wasnt staying and we were not using that cap this year anyway. I think with a tad better defense, this team could easily have 3-4 more wins and be in the thick of things for the 7th seed. This team really isn't far off from being a decent 8-10 win team.
That said, I am also not upset we are going to pick #2 and get our QB of the future. Lets hope the Jets sneak in a win or 2!
(12-08-2020, 06:11 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-06-2020, 04:00 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]The best 1-10 team ever. Obviously you either win or lose. No bonus for playing well.
This is honestly how I feel. I am still so lost as to why we traded away Campbell this year if we knew full well Yann wasnt staying and we were not using that cap this year anyway. I think with a tad better defense, this team could easily have 3-4 more wins and be in the thick of things for the 7th seed. This team really isn't far off from being a decent 8-10 win team.
That said, I am also not upset we are going to pick #2 and get our QB of the future. Lets hope the Jets sneak in a win or 2!
I would suggest trading Campbell was a mercy thing for a good guy. All the Jets HAVE to know if they screw up and are the cause of a win they'd be cut immediately or lynched by the fans up there
(12-06-2020, 05:44 PM)HandsomeRob86 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-06-2020, 03:38 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]This team lacks talent or too young in most key positions. Caldwell really put him in a bad spot. Yes he has made some questionable calls but this team remains competitive.
Despite all of the above, this team is in most games. We are not getting blown out and this team has not given up. He did coach this team from one bad call away from the SB when he had the talent.
Have you queued up the ol 'Glennon might be the guy for us' thread. Lol, losing so long we just accept it. I actuallly agree that Marrone isn't terrible. But this season deserves a clean sweep. And I think we will get it.
Agree. This notion that Marrone has suddenly done a respectable job of coaching is laughable. 1-10. That's the bottom line.
What he's done over the past few weeks to try to make the games more competitive isn't saving him from the chopping block when the season is over. The team needs a complete reboot. There's some (emphasis on some as in a handful of players) who are part of the core moving forward, but this team is basically as bad as it has been at any time in franchise history. Even the expansion team was better coached and played hard. Yes, they're showing signs of life late in the season, but that's not on Marrone and his suddenly mad coaching prowess. It's guys recognizing they need to get tape out there to help them in the future
Marrone isn't terrible. He's just not a good head coach. He's basically the bologna sandwich of NFL head coaches. We can blame it on lousy personnel. We can point the fingers at Caldwell, an then blame Caldwell's failure on Coughlin. Ultimately, it's crappy ownership that is killing this team. Khan has made it clear during his stewardship that mediocrity is okay with him. He's still making money (before the pandemic struck), but even that is starting to become an issue. With the team basically floating a possible relocation if they don't get what they want out of the city for Lot J, we're back in the mode of wondering what the future holds long-term. Makes you start to wonder if, once again we're being major league'd.
We'll discover a lot about what his vision is for this team and this city once the season is over. If he goes out and hires another dud GM, and they bring in some hack head coach, the writing will be on the wall.
(12-08-2020, 11:46 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (12-07-2020, 12:07 AM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]Talk about Battered Spouse Syndrome. This team has been trash for the majority of his time here. Why was Coughlin hired in the first place? It was because Caldwell was struggling with his job. The guy is trash.
Coughlin was brought in because Gus Bradley failed. How much of that failure (and how long it went on) is on Caldwell vs Khan remains unknown. Personally I think Khan brought TC in because he figured out that he needed someone to tell him (Khan) when he's not taking needed action like firing Bobblehead after his 3rd season when any other owner would've. I really like the approach DC used to build this team, he just missed on the first coach (a good choice at the time that didn't pan out) and the franchise QB and then held onto both mistakes for too long.
You are flat out wrong. Bradley failed so they hired Coughlin to be Coughlin's boss? Odd Logic.
Who endorsed Bradley for all of those years? Caldwell.
Coughlin was hired because Caldwell was inept with his job as GM.
Also, Marrone should get more respect. Marrone proved he can coach a winner in Buffalo(their first in forever at that point) and he proved it here. As I said before, he was one bad call away from reaching the Super Bowl. I do not know if he will be the future coach but looking at the current options on the open list he is a candidate.
Yes we are 1-11 but you can't put this on Marrone. He is coaching the youngest team in the NFL. Caldwell booted most of the talent off this team. YOu could put the great coach who ever lived to coach this team and it's barely a 4 win team. You can't coach talent or lack thereof.
Marrone doesn't deserve any credit..
Well actually, he does deserve some credit...
He deserves credit in playing a big role in costing us a Super Bowl appearance in 2017 with his scared [BLEEP] coaching. He curled up into a little puss ball and highly likely cost us a SB Championship. This team got there despite him, but he still screwed it up at the end of the day.
Deserves credit for being one of the very few, if not the only HC to take multiple kneel downs at the end of the 1st half of a Championship game. While your Offense has been rolling that entire 1st half. Still has 2 time outs remaining, with the lead, at your 35 yard line, with over 1 minute left in the half. Doesn't even attempt a play, just kneels... Straight up a pathetic display of scared head coaching. Then that 2nd half continued to be one of the most scared HC jobs you'll ever see. It was actually embarrassing.
Literally one of the biggest coaching blunders you'll ever see.. That's what he deserves credit for and that's all he deserves credit for. Coaching scared and costing us big time.
(12-08-2020, 07:50 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 11:46 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Coughlin was brought in because Gus Bradley failed. How much of that failure (and how long it went on) is on Caldwell vs Khan remains unknown. Personally I think Khan brought TC in because he figured out that he needed someone to tell him (Khan) when he's not taking needed action like firing Bobblehead after his 3rd season when any other owner would've. I really like the approach DC used to build this team, he just missed on the first coach (a good choice at the time that didn't pan out) and the franchise QB and then held onto both mistakes for too long.
You are flat out wrong. Bradley failed so they hired Coughlin to be Coughlin's boss? Odd Logic.
Who endorsed Bradley for all of those years? Caldwell.
Coughlin was hired because Caldwell was inept with his job as GM.
Also, Marrone should get more respect. Marrone proved he can coach a winner in Buffalo(their first in forever at that point) and he proved it here. As I said before, he was one bad call away from reaching the Super Bowl. I do not know if he will be the future coach but looking at the current options on the open list he is a candidate.
Yes we are 1-11 but you can't put this on Marrone. He is coaching the youngest team in the NFL. Caldwell booted most of the talent off this team. YOu could put the great coach who ever lived to coach this team and it's barely a 4 win team. You can't coach talent or lack thereof.
You are bold in your ignorance, I'll give you that.
(12-09-2020, 04:39 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Marrone doesn't deserve any credit..
Well actually, he does deserve some credit...
He deserves credit in playing a big role in costing us a Super Bowl appearance in 2017 with his scared [BLEEP] coaching. He curled up into a little puss ball and highly likely cost us a SB Championship. This team got there despite him, but he still screwed it up at the end of the day.
Deserves credit for being one of the very few, if not the only HC to take multiple kneel downs at the end of the 1st half of a Championship game. While your Offense has been rolling that entire 1st half. Still has 2 time outs remaining, with the lead, at your 35 yard line, with over 1 minute left in the half. Doesn't even attempt a play, just kneels... Straight up a pathetic display of scared head coaching. Then that 2nd half continued to be one of the most scared HC jobs you'll ever see. It was actually embarrassing.
Literally one of the biggest coaching blunders you'll ever see.. That's what he deserves credit for and that's all he deserves credit for. Coaching scared and costing us big time.
This is really all that needs to be said.
(12-08-2020, 04:21 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 03:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Coughlin would have still pissed off all the same young talent he pissed off and they'd still have run for the hills ASAP to get the heck outta Jax.
Perhaps, but maybe the CAP is in better order and we're not purging ourselves of the veteran talent that was okay with Coughlin's approach.
As we know it really was only Telvin Smith, Ramsey, and Yan that were p.o.'d at Coughlin and his ways.
But also getting rid of Campbell and Bouye and Malik Jackson and extending Bortles and giving Foles a big contract hurt as much or more than those 3 guys not being on the team. (Not to mention the likelihood of Coughlin the GM having a hand in the Fournette and Taven Bryan draft selections)
You forget Fowler and all the fines, which is a big one. I can't recall if this was the one that got TC in trouble with the league, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.
What about the RB room under Wheatley, where basically the entire position group decided to peace out in the middle of a game?
Brandon Albert quit within a week of signing, not saying it was due to TC, but it happened under his watch.
There were more than just 3 guys/incidents that undid the attempt to build a roster.
(12-08-2020, 07:50 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (12-08-2020, 11:46 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Coughlin was brought in because Gus Bradley failed. How much of that failure (and how long it went on) is on Caldwell vs Khan remains unknown. Personally I think Khan brought TC in because he figured out that he needed someone to tell him (Khan) when he's not taking needed action like firing Bobblehead after his 3rd season when any other owner would've. I really like the approach DC used to build this team, he just missed on the first coach (a good choice at the time that didn't pan out) and the franchise QB and then held onto both mistakes for too long.
You are flat out wrong. Bradley failed so they hired Coughlin to be Coughlin's boss? Odd Logic.
Who endorsed Bradley for all of those years? Caldwell.
Coughlin was hired because Caldwell was inept with his job as GM.
Also, Marrone should get more respect. Marrone proved he can coach a winner in Buffalo(their first in forever at that point) and he proved it here. As I said before, he was one bad call away from reaching the Super Bowl. I do not know if he will be the future coach but looking at the current options on the open list he is a candidate.
Yes we are 1-11 but you can't put this on Marrone. He is coaching the youngest team in the NFL. Caldwell booted most of the talent off this team. YOu could put the great coach who ever lived to coach this team and it's barely a 4 win team. You can't coach talent or lack thereof.
Coughlin was hired because Shad wasn't around to manage the management. I might venture to say he also did so to try and drum up fan support, bringing back an old hero that was known for his rigidity, which was definitely a contrast to both Shad and Dave's management style. If the team was winning and the hero of bygone days was at the helm, surely that would put butts in the seats, right?
Welp.
Regarding the rest, Marrone gets credit for sticking to it. He's not griped about management's abrasiveness scaring away his best players, he's not griped about failed attempts to fix positions killing our caps for multiple years. He's continued on, but don't forget he's making each year what most of us will take home in a career. A big part of a coach with a young team is development. Who has excelled to better play under his tenure?
He's a placeholder.
Did you guys know this will be Marrone's second 1 win season as Jaguars HC?
There's a lot of speculation in this thread. We really don't know what happened behind the scenes. Did Caldwell want to extend Bortles or did Coughlin? Was Foles Caldwell's guy or Coughlin's? Did Khan pick Bradley or did DC? Who wanted Marrone? We can only guess. I know Khan meant well, but bringing in Coughlin muddied the waters when it comes to accountability. Imo, every decision made while Tom Coughlin was here ultimately fall's on Tom's head, which includes the resigning of Bortles, hiring of Marrone, and the signing of Foles. The one thing I can say about Caldwell, when he alone was accountable, is that he has been able to find good talent. Good enough to go to the AFC Championship. Good enough to field a competitive, but inexperienced team that seems to be getting better week to week. Caldwell might be abysmal in the full role of GM. The guy can find some talent, though. There are a lot of GMs that fail in this regard, and we are going to be sorry if we end up with one of them.
(12-09-2020, 12:38 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]There's a lot of speculation in this thread. We really don't know what happened behind the scenes. Did Caldwell want to extend Bortles or did Coughlin? Was Foles Caldwell's guy or Coughlin's? Did Khan pick Bradley or did DC? Who wanted Marrone? We can only guess. I know Khan meant well, but bringing in Coughlin muddied the waters when it comes to accountability. Imo, every decision made while Tom Coughlin was here ultimately fall's on Tom's head, which includes the resigning of Bortles, hiring of Marrone, and the signing of Foles. The one thing I can say about Caldwell, when he alone was accountable, is that he has been able to find good talent. Good enough to go to the AFC Championship. Good enough to field a competitive, but inexperienced team that seems to be getting better week to week. Caldwell might be abysmal in the full role of GM. The guy can find some talent, though. There are a lot of GMs that fail in this regard, and we are going to be sorry if we end up with one of them.
I agree with you, but only up until April of this year. I can't explain Chaisson.
Dave's first draft in 2013 was also terrible. A lot of people say that was a bad year overall, but there were pro-bowlers around the first few jags picks and Dave didn't pick them.
(12-08-2020, 12:41 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]But I wonder, what if we had fired everyone and hired a different GM and Coughlin came back as HC only.
Asking TC to be HC only would be like asking that certain someone in our country to take on the role of Vice President. Ain't gonna happen. All power or no power.
(12-06-2020, 08:12 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ]I give him credit for chasing all the good talent away and leading this team to so many losing seasons. its all this moron of a hc
You should give more credit to Coughlin for chasing the talent away.