(12-10-2020, 10:49 AM)ATLjag Wrote: [ -> ]The NFL, really its collective owners, have become thieving gorillas. They make a ton of money, but never enough to their satisfaction. Unfortunately, they each are able to demand what they want (not need) from the cities, with the threat, implied or not, to leave, as cities can not fathom life without a team.
This is why a precedent needs to be set, cities need to stop being such spineless turds and rely heavily on crony subsidies/welfare for billionaire owners who could full well afford stadiums on their own dime. They just want to overload these new venues with "State of the Art" tech and make the taxpayers pay for it 3x over. To help build it(taxes), then likely buy a PSL, on top of tickets. It's ridiculous that middle and upper middle class end up having to foot the bill so a billionaire can built a $5 billion stadium instead of a $1 billion stadium. IF Sofi can be 100% privately financed, every stadium can be. Not every stadium has to be "sTaTe Of ThE aRt", either.
"The stadium needs either a major upgrade or to be replaced. Any Jags fan who's been to the stadium in August or September understands why."
what?, the stadium is just fine as it is for just watching a game. You all spoiled. It's the 5, 10 mile radius scenery around the stadium that needs to be overhauled.
Given all the crap that has happened in 2020, it has put so many things into perspective for a LOT of people. I was “Generation Jaguar”. I was 15 when Jax was awarded a franchise and lived in Middleburg and couldn’t wait to be “grown” and buy season tickets. I’m 41 years old now and live in NC. Financially I could swing tickets. However, I just don’t CARE anymore. That’s what 2 decades of ineptitude have done. A lot of people don’t care if the Jags move.
(12-10-2020, 12:27 PM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:10 PM)JagFanFirst Wrote: [ -> ]The Jags aren't leaving Jacksonville. Too many people remember how difficult it was to bring an NFL team to this city - it was a miracle, really. Lot J would be good for downtown's development, and the city should partner in it, but at reasonable terms. I believe those terms will be worked out. I can't fault the city council for asking for more time to read over the agreement. They'll ask for changes and there will be back and forth negotiations. It will get done.
This is the first time the Jaguars have ever raised the possibility of moving the team. Wayne Weaver made it clear he would not sell the team unless the new owner agreed to keep the Jaguars in Jacksonville. That commitment by Khan has now been voided. I don't think lot J will result in the team moving, but when it comes time to replace the stadium that my be the straw that brakes the camels back. I just don't see how you can be so sure the Jaguars are not leaving Jacksonville sometime in the future after the threat of moving the team.
Weaver told the press that keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville was part of the deal he made with Khan.
I'm sure it was, but there were never details.
We can assume that there was a clause where Khan would have to refund Weaver or the league something if he moved the team, but that clause probably had an expiration date. And the penalty amount probably tapers down over time.
(12-10-2020, 01:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:27 PM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ]This is the first time the Jaguars have ever raised the possibility of moving the team. Wayne Weaver made it clear he would not sell the team unless the new owner agreed to keep the Jaguars in Jacksonville. That commitment by Khan has now been voided. I don't think lot J will result in the team moving, but when it comes time to replace the stadium that my be the straw that brakes the camels back. I just don't see how you can be so sure the Jaguars are not leaving Jacksonville sometime in the future after the threat of moving the team.
Weaver told the press that keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville was part of the deal he made with Khan.
I'm sure it was, but there were never details.
We can assume that there was a clause where Khan would have to refund Weaver or the league something if he moved the team, but that clause probably had an expiration date. And the penalty amount probably tapers down over time.
That was a 5 year deal. We are well out of that window, and the penalty wasn’t that huge if I remember anyway.
(12-10-2020, 12:10 PM)JagFanFirst Wrote: [ -> ]The Jags aren't leaving Jacksonville. Too many people remember how difficult it was to bring an NFL team to this city - it was a miracle, really. Lot J would be good for downtown's development, and the city should partner in it, but at reasonable terms. I believe those terms will be worked out. I can't fault the city council for asking for more time to read over the agreement. They'll ask for changes and there will be back and forth negotiations. It will get done.
Nobody in the ownership group or management remains that was there for the inception of the franchise. Khan was trying to buy the Rams when they were in St Louis. The Jags were option B when Weaver put the team up for sale. At that point, Khan was more interested in joining the fraternity of owners, and not so much concerned about where the team was located.
Lot J would be an interesting upgrade for the downtown area, and I don't have a problem with the city having a reasonable investment in the project to assure that it gets done, and that it's done right. They may very well get it done, but when the negotiations are in the early stages and they're already playing the relocation card, the team isn't laying the groundwork for a satisfactory outcome.
(12-10-2020, 12:30 PM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]I personally would like a project like the Lot J development, or anything that improves downtown.
But don’t hold the people of Jax hostage and make subtle threats about the Jags moving, for just wanting another month to review the details lol. Jags fans in Jax have done nothing but support this 2-win team for the last decade of its mediocrity.
Exactly.
If you want the city to invest in the long-term around the stadium, negotiate in good faith and don't threaten to pull the team out of the city that has supported the steaming pile of garbage we've been subjected to under Khan's ownership.
(12-10-2020, 01:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:27 PM)dennisp3 Wrote: [ -> ]This is the first time the Jaguars have ever raised the possibility of moving the team. Wayne Weaver made it clear he would not sell the team unless the new owner agreed to keep the Jaguars in Jacksonville. That commitment by Khan has now been voided. I don't think lot J will result in the team moving, but when it comes time to replace the stadium that my be the straw that brakes the camels back. I just don't see how you can be so sure the Jaguars are not leaving Jacksonville sometime in the future after the threat of moving the team.
Weaver told the press that keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville was part of the deal he made with Khan.
I'm sure it was, but there were never details.
We can assume that there was a clause where Khan would have to refund Weaver or the league something if he moved the team, but that clause probably had an expiration date. And the penalty amount probably tapers down over time.
That clause was pocket change for Khan, and it's long since expired. Khan agreed not to relocate the team for the first 5 years he owned it. Now he's trying to extort the taxpayers of Jax into committing more than a quarter of a billion dollars into a project outside the stadium, knowing full well he'll be coming back to the well in a few years demanding the city pony up for a new stadium or at a minimum, a half billion dollar renovation.
(12-10-2020, 03:34 PM)D6 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:40 PM)IndyJagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still convinced that Khan sees a split between London and Jax on a 4/4 basis as his long-term goal. Builds the prestige of the franchise, makes more cash, raises his own cache with the league and he will argue that this will raise Jacksonville's status globally because of the bridge to London.
I think this is a more likely outcome than the Jaguars moving to another market in the United States.
Shad Khan has a international business mindset. Even with Khan' s connection to St. Louis, including attempting to purchase the then St. Louis Rams around a decade ago, the success of the London games for Khan as Jags owner is something he probably views as a priority to him to build on.
Remember that not only does Khan have connection to St. Louis, but Lamping does as well. The roots connecting the franchise to St. Louis are pretty significant. Not saying the team would relocate there, but that seems like the most logical option for them to get a stadium deal they could live with, especially knowing that Lamping has been involved in a project similar to Lot J around the baseball park in St. Louis. I've been there. It's a beautiful venue.
I think Covid has pretty much put the final nails in the coffin for moving a franchise to London, at least for the next decade or so. By then, Goodell should be gone, and this fantasy of putting a team there will evaporate. I think the bigger threat of losing this team is St. Louis. You won't get any resistance from the league to move a franchise there.
(12-16-2020, 04:30 PM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]Remember that not only does Khan have connection to St. Louis, but Lamping does as well. The roots connecting the franchise to St. Louis are pretty significant. Not saying the team would relocate there, but that seems like the most logical option for them to get a stadium deal they could live with, especially knowing that Lamping has been involved in a project similar to Lot J around the baseball park in St. Louis. I've been there. It's a beautiful venue.
I think Covid has pretty much put the final nails in the coffin for moving a franchise to London, at least for the next decade or so. By then, Goodell should be gone, and this fantasy of putting a team there will evaporate. I think the bigger threat of losing this team is St. Louis. You won't get any resistance from the league to move a franchise there.
St Louis has already lost a team twice. Do you think the third time could really be the charm?
(12-17-2020, 10:53 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ] (12-16-2020, 04:30 PM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]Remember that not only does Khan have connection to St. Louis, but Lamping does as well. The roots connecting the franchise to St. Louis are pretty significant. Not saying the team would relocate there, but that seems like the most logical option for them to get a stadium deal they could live with, especially knowing that Lamping has been involved in a project similar to Lot J around the baseball park in St. Louis. I've been there. It's a beautiful venue.
I think Covid has pretty much put the final nails in the coffin for moving a franchise to London, at least for the next decade or so. By then, Goodell should be gone, and this fantasy of putting a team there will evaporate. I think the bigger threat of losing this team is St. Louis. You won't get any resistance from the league to move a franchise there.
St Louis has already lost a team twice. Do you think the third time could really be the charm?
They said that about LA and they got TWO teams to move there. That said, the third largest media market in the country not having an NFL team was a big deciding factor. St Louis is a smaller market. Regardless, the Jags and the city hopefully will come to a deal. Otherwise the team is in jeopardy
Khan builds a crappy product year and and year out and gets upsets for the fans not showing up. People do not want to spend good money to watch their team get destroyed. Since Khan has taken the team, it's been flat out atrocious record. Take any popular team and make them lose as much as the Jaguars. I Guarantee their fan base would drop off heavily.
I wish Khan would do this with his auto business. Release a crappy bumper that falls off after a year and get mad at the customers for not buying them.
(12-10-2020, 01:45 PM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]Given all the crap that has happened in 2020, it has put so many things into perspective for a LOT of people. I was “Generation Jaguar”. I was 15 when Jax was awarded a franchise and lived in Middleburg and couldn’t wait to be “grown” and buy season tickets. I’m 41 years old now and live in NC. Financially I could swing tickets. However, I just don’t CARE anymore. That’s what 2 decades of ineptitude have done. A lot of people don’t care if the Jags move
Feel the same. I am 41 now and was 14 when I learned the Jags got a team back in 1993. This franchise is just a stain on the bottom of people's shoes. I moved out of Jacksonville over 10 years ago and have no vested interest on where the team moves. Khan is a hypocrite for failing to put a winning product on the field but blaming the fans for not showing up. Insane!
(12-10-2020, 01:34 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 10:49 AM)ATLjag Wrote: [ -> ]The NFL, really its collective owners, have become thieving gorillas. They make a ton of money, but never enough to their satisfaction. Unfortunately, they each are able to demand what they want (not need) from the cities, with the threat, implied or not, to leave, as cities can not fathom life without a team.
This is why a precedent needs to be set, cities need to stop being such spineless turds and rely heavily on crony subsidies/welfare for billionaire owners who could full well afford stadiums on their own dime. They just want to overload these new venues with "State of the Art" tech and make the taxpayers pay for it 3x over. To help build it(taxes), then likely buy a PSL, on top of tickets. It's ridiculous that middle and upper middle class end up having to foot the bill so a billionaire can built a $5 billion stadium instead of a $1 billion stadium. IF Sofi can be 100% privately financed, every stadium can be. Not every stadium has to be "sTaTe Of ThE aRt", either.
The City should have a clause.
The Jaguars win an average of X games per year. It's a dumpster fire team year in and year out.
(12-10-2020, 12:10 PM)JagFanFirst Wrote: [ -> ]The Jags aren't leaving Jacksonville. Too many people remember how difficult it was to bring an NFL team to this city - it was a miracle, really. Lot J would be good for downtown's development, and the city should partner in it, but at reasonable terms. I believe those terms will be worked out. I can't fault the city council for asking for more time to read over the agreement. They'll ask for changes and there will be back and forth negotiations. It will get done.
You must also believe in the magical city of Oz...
(12-10-2020, 01:39 PM)Jagsfan32277 Wrote: [ -> ]"The stadium needs either a major upgrade or to be replaced. Any Jags fan who's been to the stadium in August or September understands why."
what?, the stadium is just fine as it is for just watching a game. You all spoiled. It's the 5, 10 mile radius scenery around the stadium that needs to be overhauled.
Move that sucker to the town center
(12-10-2020, 03:34 PM)D6 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:40 PM)IndyJagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still convinced that Khan sees a split between London and Jax on a 4/4 basis as his long-term goal. Builds the prestige of the franchise, makes more cash, raises his own cache with the league and he will argue that this will raise Jacksonville's status globally because of the bridge to London.
I think this is a more likely outcome than the Jaguars moving to another market in the United States.
Shad Khan has a international business mindset. Even with Khan' s connection to St. Louis, including attempting to purchase the then St. Louis Rams around a decade ago, the success of the London games for Khan as Jags owner is something he probably views as a priority to him to build on.
If he truly wants to go International, then he needs to set his sights on the Beijing Jaguars. imagine the amount of bumper accessories he could sell over there
(12-16-2020, 04:30 PM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ] (12-10-2020, 12:10 PM)JagFanFirst Wrote: [ -> ]The Jags aren't leaving Jacksonville. Too many people remember how difficult it was to bring an NFL team to this city - it was a miracle, really. Lot J would be good for downtown's development, and the city should partner in it, but at reasonable terms. I believe those terms will be worked out. I can't fault the city council for asking for more time to read over the agreement. They'll ask for changes and there will be back and forth negotiations. It will get done.
Nobody in the ownership group or management remains that was there for the inception of the franchise. Khan was trying to buy the Rams when they were in St Louis. The Jags were option B when Weaver put the team up for sale. At that point, Khan was more interested in joining the fraternity of owners, and not so much concerned about where the team was located.
Lot J would be an interesting upgrade for the downtown area, and I don't have a problem with the city having a reasonable investment in the project to assure that it gets done, and that it's done right. They may very well get it done, but when the negotiations are in the early stages and they're already playing the relocation card, the team isn't laying the groundwork for a satisfactory outcome.
(12-10-2020, 12:30 PM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]I personally would like a project like the Lot J development, or anything that improves downtown.
But don’t hold the people of Jax hostage and make subtle threats about the Jags moving, for just wanting another month to review the details lol. Jags fans in Jax have done nothing but support this 2-win team for the last decade of its mediocrity.
Exactly.
If you want the city to invest in the long-term around the stadium, negotiate in good faith and don't threaten to pull the team out of the city that has supported the steaming pile of garbage we've been subjected to under Khan's ownership.
(12-10-2020, 01:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Weaver told the press that keeping the Jaguars in Jacksonville was part of the deal he made with Khan.
I'm sure it was, but there were never details.
We can assume that there was a clause where Khan would have to refund Weaver or the league something if he moved the team, but that clause probably had an expiration date. And the penalty amount probably tapers down over time.
That clause was pocket change for Khan, and it's long since expired. Khan agreed not to relocate the team for the first 5 years he owned it. Now he's trying to extort the taxpayers of Jax into committing more than a quarter of a billion dollars into a project outside the stadium, knowing full well he'll be coming back to the well in a few years demanding the city pony up for a new stadium or at a minimum, a half billion dollar renovation.
(12-10-2020, 03:34 PM)D6 Wrote: [ -> ]I think this is a more likely outcome than the Jaguars moving to another market in the United States.
Shad Khan has a international business mindset. Even with Khan' s connection to St. Louis, including attempting to purchase the then St. Louis Rams around a decade ago, the success of the London games for Khan as Jags owner is something he probably views as a priority to him to build on.
Remember that not only does Khan have connection to St. Louis, but Lamping does as well. The roots connecting the franchise to St. Louis are pretty significant. Not saying the team would relocate there, but that seems like the most logical option for them to get a stadium deal they could live with, especially knowing that Lamping has been involved in a project similar to Lot J around the baseball park in St. Louis. I've been there. It's a beautiful venue.
I think Covid has pretty much put the final nails in the coffin for moving a franchise to London, at least for the next decade or so. By then, Goodell should be gone, and this fantasy of putting a team there will evaporate. I think the bigger threat of losing this team is St. Louis. You won't get any resistance from the league to move a franchise there.
I worked in St Louis for the majority of 2015, shortly before the team was moved. I met many sports fans during that period, and I can tell you that most of them could have cared less about the Rams moving. They were all about the Cardinals and the Blues. They only supported the Rams if they were any good, and even then not at full capacity in that cheesy Edward Jones Dome. Downtown St Louis is very similar to downtown Jax, somewhat busy during the day, dead after 6. If Khan moves there he'll just be getting the same product in a different city.
(12-10-2020, 01:45 PM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]Given all the crap that has happened in 2020, it has put so many things into perspective for a LOT of people. I was “Generation Jaguar”. I was 15 when Jax was awarded a franchise and lived in Middleburg and couldn’t wait to be “grown” and buy season tickets. I’m 41 years old now and live in NC. Financially I could swing tickets. However, I just don’t CARE anymore. That’s what 2 decades of ineptitude have done. A lot of people don’t care if the Jags move.
I have to echo a lot of that sentiment.
I am a few years younger. I was 10 in Mandarin when I heard the news that we got a team. Monday mornings in middle school were all about recapping the game and talking about how we couldn't wait until we were old enough to buy our own tickets. Wasn't until about 2012 that I've had enough financial stability to do more than 1 game a year. I'm only 2.5 hours away from the stadium, and my daughter likes watching sports in person. But UCF games are just as good to her as Jags games, and they're a heck of a lot closer and less money. If the Jags were consistently winning we would make the trip multiple times a year.
(12-17-2020, 05:12 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ] (12-17-2020, 10:53 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]St Louis has already lost a team twice. Do you think the third time could really be the charm?
They said that about LA and they got TWO teams to move there. That said, the third largest media market in the country not having an NFL team was a big deciding factor. St Louis is a smaller market. Regardless, the Jags and the city hopefully will come to a deal. Otherwise the team is in jeopardy
To be clear, LA didn't
get two teams to move there. Multiple owners wanted to move there so much they were willing to basically pay for a stadium themselves. And the NFL has been begging for a team to take back that market.
Also lot of St. Louis politicians and people felt the NFL straight out lied them for years, and actively helped (not just enabled) the Rams to leave. The NFL could have easily told Kroenke no, and just had the Chargers/Raiders move to LA. I don't really think most people in St. Louis want a stadium or would vote to give more public funds for one than Jacksonville would give.
Khan overplayed his card in making the team stink. The fallout from drafting Lawrence will create a hype nobody can ignore.
If he trades the pick, his intentions will then be crystal clear.
On a side note, kill 2 birds with one stone and go ahead a build a new appropriate sized stadium in a good part of town that developers will embrace. The downtown experiment in Jacksonville will never work.
With Trevor Lawerence coming, no need for 1 or 2 London Games. All 8 in Jacksonville cus the place gonna be packed and rocking. We don't need those them anymore , be wearing jersey's of other teams.
(12-23-2020, 01:42 PM)Jagsfan32277 Wrote: [ -> ]With Trevor Lawerence coming, no need for 1 or 2 London Games. All 8 in Jacksonville cus the place gonna be packed and rocking. We don't need those them anymore , be wearing jersey's of other teams.
London will be locked down still anyway.