Warhop has been the an offensive line coach since 1984 (37 years) on 13 different teams, on 7 different NFL teams for the past 25 years. He may not be considered the elite OL coach in the league, but he has a wealth of teaching and coaching experience, contrary to what some have inferred or stated. Sometimes the coach is limited by the ingredients he is given and the time to date that he has been given to develop the players. He has only been here since 2019, and also has been significantly limited by the Covid impact. I will give him a chance...
(06-29-2021, 08:33 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-29-2021, 07:11 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Is this where we are at now? Really? We are considering going from bad to average, development? When a rookie comes in and takes a starting role, I expect him to be average right away. That's kind of the standard. Look how long it has taken Cann to get to this point. Development means taking an average lineman and turning them into something good or even better. Warhop has not done that in many years, if ever.
Development means teaching, instructing and motivating the player enough to move the needle. Which direction that needle has been moving is up for debate.
If you as as coach, can only get your players up to a level they should've been in the first place (average), you are not very good at your job.
(06-30-2021, 09:12 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-29-2021, 08:33 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]Development means teaching, instructing and motivating the player enough to move the needle. Which direction that needle has been moving is up for debate.
If you as as coach, can only get your players up to a level they should've been in the first place (average), you are not very good at your job.
So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
(06-30-2021, 09:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:12 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]If you as as coach, can only get your players up to a level they should've been in the first place (average), you are not very good at your job.
So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
Again, these rookies coming and given starting positions are expected to be average, right away. A good coach should elevate them to a level where at least some of them should be above average. We don't have that. Our best O-Linemen are average at best.
(06-30-2021, 09:31 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
Again, these rookies coming and given starting positions are expected to be average, right away. A good coach should elevate them to a level where at least some of them should be above average. We don't have that. Our best O-Linemen are average at best.
Cann wasn't "average" as a 3rd rounder, he was "shouldn't be on a roster, Turstile Tylski-eque, god awful." Now he's at least average, maybe even a bit above that. Whether that was Cann maturing, Warhop coaching or some combination of the two that guy is better now than he was before Warhop. It's the chicken salad/chicken [BLEEP] argument and we don't know which it is.
(06-30-2021, 09:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:12 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]If you as as coach, can only get your players up to a level they should've been in the first place (average), you are not very good at your job.
So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
"Sure he has molded two top 40 picks into the worst tackle tandem in the league, but that 5th year right guard got a little better!"
(06-30-2021, 10:05 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
"Sure he has molded two top 40 picks into the worst tackle tandem in the league, but that 5th year right guard got a little better!"
Again that assumes the players can play. And I dont think Warhop should've been kept on, but geez, the guys have to play up to their abilities too.
(06-30-2021, 09:31 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:15 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]So a CEO who takes a company losing 200 million a year and brings them up to only losing 2 million a year isn't a success? I don't like Warhop, but the idea that making bad players average isn't a good coaching job is just silly.
Again, these rookies coming and given starting positions are expected to be average, right away. A good coach should elevate them to a level where at least some of them should be above average. We don't have that. Our best O-Linemen are average at best.
Yeah, but we fired everyone that was bringing in the "talent" because they sucked at it.
(06-30-2021, 11:44 AM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 09:31 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Again, these rookies coming and given starting positions are expected to be average, right away. A good coach should elevate them to a level where at least some of them should be above average. We don't have that. Our best O-Linemen are average at best.
Yeah, but we fired everyone the was bringing in the "talent" because they sucked at it.
We should've also fired
everyone in charge of developing that talent as well.
Just like Bill Belichek developed Cam Newton last year?
Stop it
Everyone here basically agrees rebuilding a team like the Jaguars is not a one year event. Just as players are under contract so are various coaches and front office people restricting Urban's ability to recruit them. Current jag coaches or front office people shouldn't get too comfortable for that reason. Sit back and watch the show, it will be a good one or maybe a bad one. Either way will be entertaining to watch...
(06-30-2021, 01:43 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 11:44 AM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, but we fired everyone the was bringing in the "talent" because they sucked at it.
We should've also fired everyone in charge of developing that talent as well.
And that's where you all lose credibility. If the players can't play the coaching doesn't matter, and if the coaches can't coach then the talent doesn't matter. You want it both ways yet you have absolutely no idea which position is the correct one. We fired the talent pickers and the talent developers, but you really don't know who to blame, so you just want everyone fired and cut to make your little feelings not hurt so much.
(06-30-2021, 10:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 01:43 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]We should've also fired everyone in charge of developing that talent as well.
And that's where you all lose credibility. If the players can't play the coaching doesn't matter, and if the coaches can't coach then the talent doesn't matter. You want it both ways yet you have absolutely no idea which position is the correct one. We fired the talent pickers and the talent developers, but you really don't know who to blame, so you just want everyone fired and cut to make your little feelings not hurt so much.
You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire
everyone. That way
all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
(07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 10:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]And that's where you all lose credibility. If the players can't play the coaching doesn't matter, and if the coaches can't coach then the talent doesn't matter. You want it both ways yet you have absolutely no idea which position is the correct one. We fired the talent pickers and the talent developers, but you really don't know who to blame, so you just want everyone fired and cut to make your little feelings not hurt so much.
You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
And it appears that the new people disgaree with you on who exactly is a bad apple.
(07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 10:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]And that's where you all lose credibility. If the players can't play the coaching doesn't matter, and if the coaches can't coach then the talent doesn't matter. You want it both ways yet you have absolutely no idea which position is the correct one. We fired the talent pickers and the talent developers, but you really don't know who to blame, so you just want everyone fired and cut to make your little feelings not hurt so much.
You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
That's exactly what Khan did. He fired everybody.
If you have information that Khan asked the new staff to retain Warhop then that would be news to the rest of us. Otherwise I'll still believe this was Meyer(i.e. the new staff) who decided to retain him.
(07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (06-30-2021, 10:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]And that's where you all lose credibility. If the players can't play the coaching doesn't matter, and if the coaches can't coach then the talent doesn't matter. You want it both ways yet you have absolutely no idea which position is the correct one. We fired the talent pickers and the talent developers, but you really don't know who to blame, so you just want everyone fired and cut to make your little feelings not hurt so much.
You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
So basically we should fire everybody and cut everybody.
(07-01-2021, 08:23 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
So basically we should fire everybody and cut everybody.
Cut off all the limbs and the head too... Then our football team could be first base at a Shrimp game.
(07-01-2021, 07:44 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
That's exactly what Khan did. He fired everybody.
If you have information that Khan asked the new staff to retain Warhop then that would be news to the rest of us. Otherwise I'll still believe this was Meyer(i.e. the new staff) who decided to retain him.
Of course Meyer was the one that kept him, but that doesn't mean he should've been retained. It doesn't matter who's decision it was, it was a bad decision.
(07-01-2021, 08:23 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 02:49 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]You lose credibility. The smart move is to fire everyone. That way all the "bad apples" are 100% gone. You then bring in an entirely new front office and coaching staff and start over. Sometimes the only way to heal is to amputate the entire limb.
So basically we should fire everybody and cut everybody.
You can't just cut guys. There are salary cap implications for cutting players, but the entire front office and
all of the coaches should've been fired.
(07-01-2021, 11:23 AM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 08:23 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]So basically we should fire everybody and cut everybody.
Cut off all the limbs and the head too... Then our football team could be first base at a Shrimp game.
That's basically what we were last year. This team was completely useless in 2020. Our record proved it. When you are that bad, drastic measures need to be taken.
(07-01-2021, 11:44 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 07:44 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]That's exactly what Khan did. He fired everybody.
If you have information that Khan asked the new staff to retain Warhop then that would be news to the rest of us. Otherwise I'll still believe this was Meyer(i.e. the new staff) who decided to retain him.
Of course Meyer was the one that kept him, but that doesn't mean he should've been retained. It doesn't matter who's decision it was, it was a bad decision.
(07-01-2021, 08:23 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]So basically we should fire everybody and cut everybody.
You can't just cut guys. There are salary cap implications for cutting players, but the entire front office and all of the coaches should've been fired.
(07-01-2021, 11:23 AM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]Cut off all the limbs and the head too... Then our football team could be first base at a Shrimp game.
That's basically what we were last year. This team was completely useless in 2020. Our record proved it. When you are that bad, drastic measures need to be taken.
So what word would you use to describe the measures taken?
(07-01-2021, 03:59 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (07-01-2021, 11:44 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Of course Meyer was the one that kept him, but that doesn't mean he should've been retained. It doesn't matter who's decision it was, it was a bad decision.
You can't just cut guys. There are salary cap implications for cutting players, but the entire front office and all of the coaches should've been fired.
That's basically what we were last year. This team was completely useless in 2020. Our record proved it. When you are that bad, drastic measures need to be taken.
So what word would you use to describe the measures taken?
Inadequate or insufficient.