Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(03-02-2021, 10:48 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 10:30 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]People keep saying this and then they continually mock us a TE at 33 (and sometimes even 25) that doesn't fit Meyer's system historically and likely won't produce significantly until year 3 if at all. The only reason he is constantly mocked to us is because TE is one of our biggest needs and even moreso now because we hired his college coach. Doesn't sound like letting the draft come to us to me.

A lot of us liked Freiermuth before Bowen got hired and I haven't seen anyone say they want him at 25.  My ideal spot is 45 but if we took him at 33 I'd be good with it depending on who is there.  Not sure why twitter got you believing this false narrative that the good TEs don't produce till year 3.  Even if we sign a TE in FA I'd be ok with taking Freiermuth with one of our 2nds.

I remember a few years back in the O.J. Howard draft class, which was supposedly very deep at TE, we explored that very discussion about TEs tending to not produce early on as a general rule.

I wasn't on twitter then...(and I'm hardly there now).

I think in the right scheme with the right QB, and good health, Friermuth can be a productive player for us early on.

The initial question is whether the Meyer/Bevell offense is the right scheme for a TE to be productive.

Since Bevell became Seattle's offensive coordinator in 2011 and served in that capacity until the end of the 2017 season, the leading TE had the following reception totals:

2-11  Zach Miller  25 receptions
2012  Zach Miller  38 receptions--Russell Wilson's rookie year
2013  Zach Miller  33 receptions-Won Super Bowl
2014  Luke Wilsson  22 receptions-Lost SB to NE
2015  Jimmy Graham  48 receptions
2016  Jimmy Graham  65 receptions
2017  Jimmy Graham  57 receptions

After a year off in 2018, Bevell was Detroit's OC in 2019 and 2020.  The leading TE produced the following numbers...

2019  TJ Hockenson  32 receptions
2020  TJ Hockenson  67 receptions

Source:  profootballreference.com

Assuming there will be substantial philosophical overlap between Bevell's approaches in Seattle and Detroit and the approach he and Meyer will implement here, I think a sufficiently talented TE (like Friermuth)can be productive in that scheme.

---

(03-02-2021, 10:51 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 10:48 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of us liked Freiermuth before Bowen got hired and I haven't seen anyone say they want him at 25.  My ideal spot is 45 but if we took him at 33 I'd be good with it depending on who is there.  Not sure why twitter got you believing this false narrative that the good TEs don't produce till year 3.  Even if we sign a TE in FA I'd be ok with taking Freiermuth with one of our 2nds.

So if the ideal spot is 45, how can he be BAP at 33? Wouldn’t the ideal spot for him be 33 since he would be the BAP?

Well...if he is somehow tied at the top of the Jaguars board at 33 but loses out due to positional importance he could be BAP at both spots.  I know...a bit of a stretch...but not totally out of the realm of possibility.

(03-02-2021, 11:04 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 10:48 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure why twitter got you believing this false narrative that the good TEs don't produce till year 3.  Even if we sign a TE in FA I'd be ok with taking Freiermuth with one of our 2nds.

You would build a very underwhelming football team.

Because he spent one pick on a TE after signing a FA TE?

What if TE is being featured prominently in the offense?

Meyer has a friendship with Belichick, who was known for running a lot of two TE sets.  Suppose Belichick's influence on him makes him put emphasis on TE?

Or is it specifically Friermuth?

(03-02-2021, 11:53 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 11:04 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]You would build a very underwhelming football team.

Because he spent one pick on a TE after signing a FA TE?

What if TE is being featured prominently in the offense?

Meyer has a friendship with Belichick, who was known for running a lot of two TE sets.  Suppose Belichick's influence on him makes him put emphasis on TE?

Or is it specifically Friermuth?

Both. Meyer used Aaron Hernandez as a super move TE, but other than him he never used TE much...especially at OSU.

So we draft a TE who is the opposite of what Meyer has used historically. After we spend money on a top FA TE in this scenario. And in all likelihood we're going to wait years for that TE to start to be good. I don't like it from any angle.

Just pay a FA TE and use a very valuable 2nd rounder on damn near anything else.

(03-03-2021, 12:19 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 11:53 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Because he spent one pick on a TE after signing a FA TE?

What if TE is being featured prominently in the offense?

Meyer has a friendship with Belichick, who was known for running a lot of two TE sets.  Suppose Belichick's influence on him makes him put emphasis on TE?

Or is it specifically Friermuth?

Both. Meyer used Aaron Hernandez as a super move TE, but other than him he never used TE much...especially at OSU.

So we draft a TE who is the opposite of what Meyer has used historically. After we spend money on a top FA TE in this scenario. And in all likelihood we're going to wait years for that TE to start to be good. I don't like it from any angle.

Just pay a FA TE and use a very valuable 2nd rounder on damn near anything else.

Cornelius Ingram was used a good bit as well.  Meyer has always liked using his TEs

(03-03-2021, 12:19 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-02-2021, 11:53 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Because he spent one pick on a TE after signing a FA TE?

What if TE is being featured prominently in the offense?

Meyer has a friendship with Belichick, who was known for running a lot of two TE sets.  Suppose Belichick's influence on him makes him put emphasis on TE?

Or is it specifically Friermuth?

Both. Meyer used Aaron Hernandez as a super move TE, but other than him he never used TE much...especially at OSU.

So we draft a TE who is the opposite of what Meyer has used historically. After we spend money on a top FA TE in this scenario. And in all likelihood we're going to wait years for that TE to start to be good. I don't like it from any angle.

Just pay a FA TE and use a very valuable 2nd rounder on damn near anything else.

In all likelyhood, there are going to be a lot of really good players available at even more key positions instead of TE.

If the Jags already signed Henry, there is absolutely no reason to draft Freiermuth at 33. The only reason he’s consistently mocked to the Jags is because they don’t have a good TE.

If y'all want to get rid of breakfast, I recommend reading Sikkema's two rounder on the same site. Holy moly is it bad. 

Darft

Only one worse than that I've seen lately was one that had Detroit taking Pitts at 8, and I simply couldn't continue reading after that.

(03-03-2021, 09:46 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]If y'all want to get rid of breakfast, I recommend reading Sikkema's two rounder on the same site. Holy moly is it bad. 

Darft

Only one worse than that I've seen lately was one that had Detroit taking Pitts at 8, and I simply couldn't continue reading after that.

I really like Sikkema but this mock is brutal.

I would have gone Lawrence, Vera Tucker, Barmoore, Moore.

(03-03-2021, 09:46 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]If y'all want to get rid of breakfast, I recommend reading Sikkema's two rounder on the same site. Holy moly is it bad. 

Darft

Only one worse than that I've seen lately was one that had Detroit taking Pitts at 8, and I simply couldn't continue reading after that.

What a mess! No LT means Lawrence would probably get hurt before mid season. In this scenario, once I saw 3 OT's in row coming off the board at #19, #20 and #21, I would immediately get on the phone and try to trade up ahead of Pittsburgh to get Eichenberg. If that didn't work, I basically call every team in the NFL with a solid, established LT and make offers to deal the #25 and whatever else I have to throw in to get a good, starting LT. One way or the other, I will get a new, good LT for Lawrence or die trying. I definitely refuse to go into the 2021 season with both Robinson and Taylor on the corners. Ideally, we could replace both with better players, but that is very unlikely to happen. Replacing Robinson is a must though. 

With that said, I think Moehrig at #25 is a very big reach. If the draft fell like this, I'd use this pick to either trade up for Eichenberg or use it to trade for a for a veteran LT. 

Drafting a WR at #33 is not even an option in my mind. I see MUCH better players available at real positions of need. I'm a big fan of CB Eric Stokes. He has size and reportedly has ran a sub 4.4/40 at Georgia. I'd easily take him at #33, since I have him rated as a first round value. 

At #45, this is an easy selection for me. I take D-Lineman Daviyon Nixon and thank my lucky stars. Again, I have him as a first round value. He could be a pass rushing 3 technique in 4-3 sets and in 3-4 looks, he'd be an ideal 5 technique.

(03-03-2021, 02:25 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-03-2021, 09:46 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]If y'all want to get rid of breakfast, I recommend reading Sikkema's two rounder on the same site. Holy moly is it bad. 

Darft

Only one worse than that I've seen lately was one that had Detroit taking Pitts at 8, and I simply couldn't continue reading after that.

What a mess! No LT means Lawrence would probably get hurt before mid season. In this scenario, once I saw 3 OT's in row coming off the board at #19, #20 and #21, I would immediately get on the phone and try to trade up ahead of Pittsburgh to get Eichenberg. If that didn't work, I basically call every team in the NFL with a solid, established LT and make offers to deal the #25 and whatever else I have to throw in to get a good, starting LT. One way or the other, I will get a new, good LT for Lawrence or die trying. I definitely refuse to go into the 2021 season with both Robinson and Taylor on the corners. Ideally, we could replace both with better players, but that is very unlikely to happen. Replacing Robinson is a must though. 

With that said, I think Moehrig at #25 is a very big reach. If the draft fell like this, I'd use this pick to either trade up for Eichenberg or use it to trade for a for a veteran LT. 

Drafting a WR at #33 is not even an option in my mind. I see MUCH better players available at real positions of need. I'm a big fan of CB Eric Stokes. He has size and reportedly has ran a sub 4.4/40 at Georgia. I'd easily take him at #33, since I have him rated as a first round value. 

At #45, this is an easy selection for me. I take D-Lineman Daviyon Nixon and thank my lucky stars. Again, I have him as a first round value. He could be a pass rushing 3 technique in 4-3 sets and in 3-4 looks, he'd be an ideal 5 technique.

I ran a sim yesterday and this is almost exactly what I did...

1 - TLaw
25 - Horn (whoa!)
33 - Eichenberg (Really hope he's here come April, but starting to doubt it)
45 - Nixon (get the big guys early, passed on Moehrig here, but seriously considered)
66 - Brevin Jordan (I kind of like his fit more than Freiermuth, and Moehrig was still on the board, surprisingly.)

I took Jordan at 66, hoping that Ford would make it to our next pick (105 I think). The Saints took him with the last pick of the third and I was a little bitter. The other crazy thing about this sim? Wilson was still on the board at 33. He went 34th to NYJ, but still, it was goofballs seeing that play out.

(03-04-2021, 09:44 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-03-2021, 02:25 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]What a mess! No LT means Lawrence would probably get hurt before mid season. In this scenario, once I saw 3 OT's in row coming off the board at #19, #20 and #21, I would immediately get on the phone and try to trade up ahead of Pittsburgh to get Eichenberg. If that didn't work, I basically call every team in the NFL with a solid, established LT and make offers to deal the #25 and whatever else I have to throw in to get a good, starting LT. One way or the other, I will get a new, good LT for Lawrence or die trying. I definitely refuse to go into the 2021 season with both Robinson and Taylor on the corners. Ideally, we could replace both with better players, but that is very unlikely to happen. Replacing Robinson is a must though. 

With that said, I think Moehrig at #25 is a very big reach. If the draft fell like this, I'd use this pick to either trade up for Eichenberg or use it to trade for a for a veteran LT. 

Drafting a WR at #33 is not even an option in my mind. I see MUCH better players available at real positions of need. I'm a big fan of CB Eric Stokes. He has size and reportedly has ran a sub 4.4/40 at Georgia. I'd easily take him at #33, since I have him rated as a first round value. 

At #45, this is an easy selection for me. I take D-Lineman Daviyon Nixon and thank my lucky stars. Again, I have him as a first round value. He could be a pass rushing 3 technique in 4-3 sets and in 3-4 looks, he'd be an ideal 5 technique.

I ran a sim yesterday and this is almost exactly what I did...

1 - TLaw
25 - Horn (whoa!)
33 - Eichenberg (Really hope he's here come April, but starting to doubt it)
45 - Nixon (get the big guys early, passed on Moehrig here, but seriously considered)
66 - Brevin Jordan (I kind of like his fit more than Freiermuth, and Moehrig was still on the board, surprisingly.)

I took Jordan at 66, hoping that Ford would make it to our next pick (105 I think). The Saints took him with the last pick of the third and I was a little bitter. The other crazy thing about this sim? Wilson was still on the board at 33. He went 34th to NYJ, but still, it was goofballs seeing that play out.

Holy crap! That would be a fantastic draft!

I like Jordan better than Freiermuth, but I couldn't pass on Moehrig. Not that it would matter since there's no way he's there at 65 lol.

(03-04-2021, 02:58 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I like Jordan better than Freiermuth, but I couldn't pass on Moehrig. Not that it would matter since there's no way he's there at 65 lol.

I view Hunter Long the way many of you view Friermuth. 

Jordan is a good prospect though.

(03-04-2021, 03:29 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-04-2021, 02:58 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I like Jordan better than Freiermuth, but I couldn't pass on Moehrig. Not that it would matter since there's no way he's there at 65 lol.

I view Hunter Long the way many of you view Friermuth. 

Jordan is a good prospect though.

Agreed. Hunter Long is my #2 TE. I think Brevin Jordan is underrated too.

(03-04-2021, 03:29 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-04-2021, 02:58 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I like Jordan better than Freiermuth, but I couldn't pass on Moehrig. Not that it would matter since there's no way he's there at 65 lol.

I view Hunter Long the way many of you view Friermuth. 

Jordan is a good prospect though.

Might have to ask for clarification, for a while he was the flavor of the week, but as of late it seems that he's become frowned upon. Not sure if your statement is an endorsement or a criticism of Long.

(03-04-2021, 05:54 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-04-2021, 03:29 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I view Hunter Long the way many of you view Friermuth. 

Jordan is a good prospect though.

Agreed. Hunter Long is my #2 TE. I think Brevin Jordan is underrated too.

I dislike Hunter Ling.

Many of you see Friermuth is slow.  I don't.

Hunter Long, however, is almost painful to watch. 

He gets no separation whatsoever.

---

(03-05-2021, 10:10 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-04-2021, 03:29 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I view Hunter Long the way many of you view Friermuth. 

Jordan is a good prospect though.

Might have to ask for clarification, for a while he was the flavor of the week, but as of late it seems that he's become frowned upon. Not sure if your statement is an endorsement or a criticism of Long.

See above.

Apologies for not being clear.

I only want a FA TE and then I'd be fine with drafting Jordan to develop but not thrilled with it. I don't like any of the traditional two way TE in this class.

(03-05-2021, 11:58 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-04-2021, 05:54 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. Hunter Long is my #2 TE. I think Brevin Jordan is underrated too.

I dislike Hunter Ling.

Many of you see Friermuth is slow.  I don't.

Hunter Long, however, is almost painful to watch. 

He gets no separation whatsoever.

---

(03-05-2021, 10:10 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Might have to ask for clarification, for a while he was the flavor of the week, but as of late it seems that he's become frowned upon. Not sure if your statement is an endorsement or a criticism of Long.

See above.

Apologies for not being clear.

If you're looking for a TE who gets real separation, those guys are few and far between. You basically need to find an athletic freak or an over-sized WR who has converted to TE. Long is a solid route runner and basically catches everything thrown his way. He may not be a "freak athlete" like Travis Kelce or Rob Gronkowski or a WR/TE combo like a young Jimmy Graham or Darren Waller, but Long reminds me a lot of a TE many people on this board want us to sign in free agency and that is Hunter Henry. I truly believe Long has the second best hands at the position, behind Pitts. 

Kyle Pitts is the only real "separation" TE in this draft and he's likely going in the top 10. He is what I call an "athletic freak."  With that said, we have no shot at him. If we want that kind of TE in this draft, I would select an over-sized WR like Simi Fehoko of Stanford. In him, I really see a raw version of Kyle Pitts. Fehoko is listed at 6'4" 227 lbs. and I could see him being the same type TE that Darren Waller has turned into, only Fehoko has much better hands. He'd be a project though and would probably take a season or two to really start to resemble what I believe he can be.