Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums - Who would you take?

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Judging them solely as players, wholly irrespective of need, who would you take at 25 between Teven Jenkins and Zaven Collins?

I am genuinely torn between the two.

That one is tough. I like Jenkins, but I like other OT's better. Collins is an elite player in my opinion. He excels at every aspect of the linebacking position. Here is my dilemma. I have Collins as the better overall player. I see him as a pure 4-3 WLB. I believe he has all the tools to be dominant in a 4-3 defense. I just don't know how he would fit in a 3-4 scheme. It would probably depend on how much we'd be in a 3-4 look and how much we'd be in a 4-3 defense to see where I could work him in. With that said, just going off who is the better overall player, I have to say Zaven Collins. I think he can be special. He is my favorite LB in the draft.

(03-06-2021, 01:50 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That one is tough. I like Jenkins, but I like other OT's better. Collins is an elite player in my opinion. He excels at every aspect of the linebacking position. Here is my dilemma. I have Collins as the better overall player. I see him as a pure 4-3 WLB. I believe he has all the tools to be dominant in a 4-3 defense. I just don't know how he would fit in a 3-4 scheme. It would probably depend on how much we'd be in a 3-4 look and how much we'd be in a 4-3 defense to see where I could work him in. With that said, just going off who is the better overall player, I have to say Zaven Collins. I think he can be special. He is my favorite LB in the draft.

At 6-4 260, I think Collins fits perfectly in a 3-4, though athletically, he can perform the things 4-3 LBs are typically tasked to do.

At that size, he could play ILB and take on a G in the run game, while dropping effortlessly into pass coverage, either zone or man. At OLB, he can hold the point against the run, has the length and speed to be a threat rushing the passer, and again drop into coverage.

My question is where would we play him?

You could argue he'd start over Schoebert at ILB due to athleticism. Pairing him with Jack. it would be hard for QBs to complete passes underneath with those two in coverage. Problem is, you don't know how Jack would perform inside having to take on guards, where I am confident Schobert can.

You could also argue he'd start over Chaisson at ROLB-again due to his athletic versatility. I don't see Chaisson being able to effectively drop into coverage. To be honest, I don't see him as very good rushing the passer, either. I think the 3-4 might make him a little better at it than he'd be with his hand in the dirt, but he's Barkevious Mingo with a little more burst. I could see Collins starting over him and having far more impact. But adding him to our LB corps would give us amazing athleticism at LB for our first time running that scheme.

As you know, I am big on friermuth and I believe we also need to upgrade both T positions, and there seems to be value at the T position towards the bottom of the first round. But the more I see and think about Collins in our defense, the more I am beginning to feel he should be the pick at 25.

In fact, there are a couple of other OLB edge rusher candidates that I would consider more strongly in Penn State's Oweh and Georgia's Ojulari, were it not for the extreme redundancy at the position they represent.

If you establish that they are in the same tier grade wise, which I do, then you look to need, team fit, and positional value.

We desperately need OT and our 2nd and 3rd highest players are off ball linebackers. Maybe first and second highest paid if the Norwell release rumors happen. Need is heavily in Jenkins favor.

They would both fit our scheme well, tie.

OT positional value is extremely higher than off ball linebacker. Another mark heavily in Jenkins favor.

I think the easy choice is Jenkins.

(03-06-2021, 02:20 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]If you establish that they are in the same tier grade wise, which I do, then you look to need, team fit, and positional value.

We desperately need OT and our 2nd and 3rd highest players are off ball linebackers. Maybe first and second highest paid if the Norwell release rumors happen. Need is heavily in Jenkins favor.

They would both fit our scheme well, tie.

OT positional value is extremely higher than off ball linebacker. Another mark heavily in Jenkins favor.

I think the easy choice is Jenkins.

I was trying to remove need from the equation, but overall, I agree with your analysis.

I will say that LB in a 3-4 is more important than the off ball LB in a 4-3, and Collins could play at the point at OLB in a 3-4.

(03-06-2021, 02:27 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I will say that LB in a 3-4 is more important than the off ball LB in a 4-3, and Collins could play at the point at OLB in a 3-4.

Our ILBs are two of our highest paid players. Our OLBs are our last two first round draft picks. Either way the amount that we've invested into our linebackers should mean we virtually have to go elsewhere with our extremely valuable and important 25th overall pick.

The only way it would be wise to pick Collins is if you think that he is far and away the best player available at 25, and I just don't think it's possible to have him graded a full tier ahead of the other players that will be on the board at the time. Regardless of whether that's Jenkins or someone else.

EDIT: Honestly, I actually do think we need another outside pass rusher. I have strongly considered Ojulari at 25. If you think Collins can be a premier pass rusher then he would be fine there, but most people think he is more off ball/versatile than pure pass rusher.

I do like the idea of a who would you take thread. I think comparing two guys at positions of heavy need who we have also been linked to would be fun. Something like Jenkins vs Newsome vs Moehrig or something.

(03-06-2021, 02:50 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I do like the idea of a who would you take thread. I think comparing two guys at positions of heavy need who we have also been linked to would be fun. Something like Jenkins vs Newsome vs Moehrig or something.

Sounds like an idea to me.

Let's see...

Pick 66

Alim McNeil vs Brevin Jordan.

(03-06-2021, 02:34 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 02:27 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I will say that LB in a 3-4 is more important than the off ball LB in a 4-3, and Collins could play at the point at OLB in a 3-4.

Our ILBs are two of our highest paid players. Our OLBs are our last two first round draft picks. Either way the amount that we've invested into our linebackers should mean we virtually have to go elsewhere with our extremely valuable and important 25th overall pick.

The only way it would be wise to pick Collins is if you think that he is far and away the best player available at 25, and I just don't think it's possible to have him graded a full tier ahead of the other players that will be on the board at the time. Regardless of whether that's Jenkins or someone else.

EDIT: Honestly, I actually do think we need another outside pass rusher. I have strongly considered Ojulari at 25. If you think Collins can be a premier pass rusher then he would be fine there, but most people think he is more off ball/versatile than pure pass rusher.

My thing is switching to a 3-4, we're going to need more LBs as a general rule, and given the holes on our defense, you could make the argument this should be a defensive oriented draft.

Now if you were to draft Collins and put him inside, then you could try to trade one of the starters if the contracts are of concern. But considering how much cap room we have, how little depth we have, and how unknown Jack is at ILB, I think it would be worth it to keep all three, at least for this year.

The best 3-4 defenses historically have spectacular LB corps.

If we are going to switch to a 3-4, I want us to have a spectacular LB corps.

On your first question, I'd take Zaven Collins without a doubt. I'm not real big on Jenkins at all; his best fit will be at guard. Collins would be excellent for a 3-4 defense and the coaches would need to determine the best 4 starters. If Chaisson becomes the 5th guy, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have another pass rusher like him coming off the bench. I haven't given up on him, yet, but he has a long way to go.

McNeil vs. Jordan would be a much tougher call. If the Jaguars don't sign a free agent nose tackle or trade for someone like Malcolm Brown, I'd definitely go with McNeil. He and Hamilton would be a strong combo at this position. If they do this, there'd be no need to keep Al Woods. I expect the Jaguars to go after a tight end in free agency; either Hunter Henry or Jonnu Smith would be big upgrades. I would still like Jordan, however, if McNeil were off the board. He could be a great receiving tight end, but his history of injuries is a concern.

I'm assuming the Jaguars acquire a veteran left tackle- hopefully Trent Williams. This will enable them to draft a more developmental guy at that position in rounds 2-4. My favorite is Dylan Radunz. He needs to put on a few pounds of muscle to eventually replace Williams at left tackle. In the meantime, he could fill in at guard or right tackle. I'd take him with our 2nd round 2 pick.

(03-06-2021, 03:24 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]On your first question, I'd take Zaven Collins without a doubt. I'm not real big on Jenkins at all; his best fit will be at guard. Collins would be excellent for a 3-4 defense and the coaches would need to determine the best 4 starters. If Chaisson becomes the 5th guy, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have another pass rusher like him coming off the bench. I haven't given up on him, yet, but he has a long way to go.

(Emphasis added)

Agreed. I have little hope for Chaisson, but it's not totally extinguished. He DOES have a long way to go.

Quote:McNeil vs. Jordan would be a much tougher call. If the Jaguars don't sign a free agent nose tackle or trade for someone like Malcolm Brown, I'd definitely go with McNeil. He and Hamilton would be a strong combo at this position. If they do this, there'd be no need to keep Al Woods. I expect the Jaguars to go after a tight end in free agency; either Hunter Henry or Jonnu Smith would be big upgrades. I would still like Jordan, however, if McNeil were off the board. He could be a great receiving tight end, but his history of injuries is a concern.

Though Al Woods fits the scheme, I am not counting on him at all. Hopefully he'll contribute, because we need the depth. But given he sat out last year and his age, I don't think he is someone we should depend upon.

As for McNeil vs. Jordan, Jordan is the last TE that could be counted on to have any hope for a major impact in his first year. I like Friermuth, but this scenario presumes he was taken before the Jaguars could draft him. The remaining TE prospects (Yeboah, McKitty) are decent down the road prospects. However if McNeil is off the board, I think LSU's Tyler Shelvin would fit in at NT. Similarly, I think there are more viable NT prospects in free agency/trade (Tomlinson, Brown, Harrison) than TE. If Lawrence were not a rookie signal caller, I'd say NT would be the more important position and would favor Mcneil, but since Lawrence is a rookie, and potentially our first true franchise QB, I want to give him all of the tools to succeed, so I would probably favor Jordan here.

Quote:I'm assuming the Jaguars acquire a veteran left tackle- hopefully Trent Williams. This will enable them to draft a more developmental guy at that position in rounds 2-4. My favorite is Dylan Radunz. He needs to put on a few pounds of muscle to eventually replace Williams at left tackle. In the meantime, he could fill in at guard or right tackle. I'd take him with our 2nd round 2 pick.

My guy would be Walker Little. I think he could be had a little later.

Next up: Trevon Moehrig or Wyatt Davis,

(03-06-2021, 04:00 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 03:24 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]On your first question, I'd take Zaven Collins without a doubt. I'm not real big on Jenkins at all; his best fit will be at guard. Collins would be excellent for a 3-4 defense and the coaches would need to determine the best 4 starters. If Chaisson becomes the 5th guy, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have another pass rusher like him coming off the bench. I haven't given up on him, yet, but he has a long way to go.

(Emphasis added)

Agreed. I have little hope for Chaisson, but it's not totally extinguished. He DOES have a long way to go.

Quote:McNeil vs. Jordan would be a much tougher call. If the Jaguars don't sign a free agent nose tackle or trade for someone like Malcolm Brown, I'd definitely go with McNeil. He and Hamilton would be a strong combo at this position. If they do this, there'd be no need to keep Al Woods. I expect the Jaguars to go after a tight end in free agency; either Hunter Henry or Jonnu Smith would be big upgrades. I would still like Jordan, however, if McNeil were off the board. He could be a great receiving tight end, but his history of injuries is a concern.

Though Al Woods fits the scheme, I am not counting on him at all. Hopefully he'll contribute, because we need the depth. But given he sat out last year and his age, I don't think he is someone we should depend upon.

As for McNeil vs. Jordan, Jordan is the last TE that could be counted on to have any hope for a major impact in his first year. I like Friermuth, but this scenario presumes he was taken before the Jaguars could draft him. The remaining TE prospects (Yeboah, McKitty) are decent down the road prospects. However if McNeil is off the board, I think LSU's Tyler Shelvin would fit in at NT. Similarly, I think there are more viable NT prospects in free agency/trade (Tomlinson, Brown, Harrison) than TE. If Lawrence were not a rookie signal caller, I'd say NT would be the more important position and would favor Mcneil, but since Lawrence is a rookie, and potentially our first true franchise QB, I want to give him all of the tools to succeed, so I would probably favor Jordan here.

Quote:I'm assuming the Jaguars acquire a veteran left tackle- hopefully Trent Williams. This will enable them to draft a more developmental guy at that position in rounds 2-4. My favorite is Dylan Radunz. He needs to put on a few pounds of muscle to eventually replace Williams at left tackle. In the meantime, he could fill in at guard or right tackle. I'd take him with our 2nd round 2 pick.
My guy would be Walker Little. I think he could be had a little later.

Next up: Trevon Moehrig or Wyatt Davis,

This is another easy one for me. Moehrig can be an elite safety in the NFL. His leadership and ball skills make him the the top safety by far and likely a first round pick. I would be fine with the Jaguars taking him at 25, although I'd likely take Jaycee Horn and Darrisaw ahead of him if either drops.

Wyatt Davis would be a solid pick, especially if they trade or cut Norwell. I just can't see taking a guard in the first round unless they are as skilled as someone like Quinten Nelson.

I also like Walker Little. He is your classic boom or bust pick due to injuries. If this concern drops him to the 3rd round, I'd strongly consider him there. He could play behind Trent Williams (hopefully) and eventually replace him after 2-3 years. His pass protection skills would be an asset, even if called on in his rookie year, due to the need to keep Lawrence upright.

(03-06-2021, 04:38 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 04:00 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](Emphasis added)

Agreed. I have little hope for Chaisson, but it's not totally extinguished. He DOES have a long way to go.

Though Al Woods fits the scheme, I am not counting on him at all. Hopefully he'll contribute, because we need the depth. But given he sat out last year and his age, I don't think he is someone we should depend upon.

As for McNeil vs. Jordan, Jordan is the last TE that could be counted on to have any hope for a major impact in his first year. I like Friermuth, but this scenario presumes he was taken before the Jaguars could draft him. The remaining TE prospects (Yeboah, McKitty) are decent down the road prospects. However if McNeil is off the board, I think LSU's Tyler Shelvin would fit in at NT. Similarly, I think there are more viable NT prospects in free agency/trade (Tomlinson, Brown, Harrison) than TE. If Lawrence were not a rookie signal caller, I'd say NT would be the more important position and would favor Mcneil, but since Lawrence is a rookie, and potentially our first true franchise QB, I want to give him all of the tools to succeed, so I would probably favor Jordan here.

My guy would be Walker Little. I think he could be had a little later.

Next up: Trevon Moehrig or Wyatt Davis,

This is another easy one for me. Moehrig can be an elite safety in the NFL. His leadership and ball skills make him the the top safety by far and likely a first round pick. I would be fine with the Jaguars taking him at 25, although I'd likely take Jaycee Horn and Darrisaw ahead of him if either drops.

Wyatt Davis would be a solid pick, especially if they trade or cut Norwell. I just can't see taking a guard in the first round unless they are as skilled as someone like Quinten Nelson.

I also like Walker Little. He is your classic boom or bust pick due to injuries. If this concern drops him to the 3rd round, I'd strongly consider him there. He could play behind Trent Williams (hopefully) and eventually replace him after 2-3 years. His pass protection skills would be an asset, even if called on in his rookie year, due to the need to keep Lawrence upright.

For clarification, for the Moehrig v Davis analysis, I was thinking more pick 33, not 25, but they are close enough I suppose for it not to make much of a difference.

I figured this would be a good one because value wise, both are about the same (late 1 early 2). Neither play premium positions. Both represent positions of major need (G becomes a major need if Norwell is cut/traded).
From a pure talent perspective, I agree with your analysis.

But again, based upon the need to facilitate the development of Trevor Lawrence, G in this instance takes on elevated importance.

(03-06-2021, 02:55 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 02:50 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I do like the idea of a who would you take thread. I think comparing two guys at positions of heavy need who we have also been linked to would be fun. Something like Jenkins vs Newsome vs Moehrig or something.

Sounds like an idea to me.

Let's see...

Pick 66

Alim McNeil vs Brevin Jordan.

Easily Jordan for me. He shows underrated athleticism and I'd rather have a 3 Technique/5 Technique type DT, as DaVon Hamilton is my starting NT. I am dead set on that one.

(03-06-2021, 04:00 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
Next up: Trevon Moehrig or Wyatt Davis,

Easily Moehrig, if for no other reason than I'm not a fan of Davis. I have many other OG's rated ahead of him.

(03-06-2021, 08:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 04:00 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
Next up: Trevon Moehrig or Wyatt Davis,

Easily Moehrig, if for no other reason than I'm not a fan of Davis. I have many other OG's rated ahead of him.

So what would be a tougher comparison, given draft projections and position? AVT?

Jordan over McNeil, lawl.

(03-06-2021, 08:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 08:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Easily Moehrig, if for no other reason than I'm not a fan of Davis. I have many other OG's rated ahead of him.
So what would be a tougher comparison, given draft projections and position? AVT?

IDK. Maybe Trevon Moehrig vs. Eric Stokes? Safety vs. CB. The comparison of Moehrig vs. Davis was fine. I'm just personally not a Davis fan.

If not considering need:
Collins vs. Jenkins ...Collins as he is a superior impact player, that can play any LB spot or on the edge.
McNeil vs. Jordan ...Jordan as he has a higher upside to me, whereas McNeil is getting pub but believe he'll be average. Like both though.
Moehrig vs. Davis ...Moehrig is an aggressive ball-hawking free safety that positionally outranks a guard position for me. Also I feel I could find a starting caliber OG with less drop off after this pick.

(03-07-2021, 02:59 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-06-2021, 08:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So what would be a tougher comparison, given draft projections and position? AVT?

IDK. Maybe Trevon Moehrig vs. Eric Stokes? Safety vs. CB. The comparison of Moehrig vs. Davis was fine. I'm just personally not a Davis fan.

My preference would be for Moehrig.

From a positional importance perspective, CB is typically more valuable than S, and that would favor Stokes. However:

1. I think Moehrig is a better overall player than Stokes. That is reflected in most of the big boards and mock drafts. I haven't seen Stokes ranked higher anywhere.

2. From a pure need perspective, S is a much bigger need than CB. While our CB position will not remind anyone of Ramsey Bouye, Methis and Dewayne Washington, or even Aaron Beasley and Fernando Bryant, I think for one more year, we could make do with Henderson and Jones. We won't be able to address every need position adequately. I think this is one of the positions that will have to wait until next year.

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