(05-01-2021, 11:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 11:28 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Nothing to do with Etienne and everything to do with value.
To clarify, do you not think he represented value because you believe RBs should not be taken in the first, or do you not think Etienne was not worth a first round pick? If you are saying it has nothing to do with Etienne, then I surmise it isn't the latter.
Or was Etienne less valuable to the Jaguars because he was not as much of a need as someone at another position?
That's a really smart question.
For me, I gave the Etienne pick a C because there were great players available at other positions that met our needs far more than a RB. Also, because we all knew RBs were going to drop to later in the draft - only 4 RBs were picked in the first three rounds. So we could still get an excellent RB in Round 4 if we really wanted one.
Basically, by indulging a want in round 1 we set every subsequent back by one choice.
Tlaw - A+
Etienne - D
Campbell - C
Little - B+
Cisco - B
(05-01-2021, 11:43 AM)Sibelius Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 11:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]To clarify, do you not think he represented value because you believe RBs should not be taken in the first, or do you not think Etienne was not worth a first round pick? If you are saying it has nothing to do with Etienne, then I surmise it isn't the latter.
Or was Etienne less valuable to the Jaguars because he was not as much of a need as someone at another position?
That's a really smart question.
For me, I gave the Etienne pick a C because there were great players available at other positions that met our needs far more than a RB. Also, because we all knew RBs were going to drop to later in the draft - only 4 RBs were picked in the first three rounds. So we could still get an excellent RB in Round 4 if we really wanted one.
Basically, by indulging a want in round 1 we set every subsequent back by one choice.
Thank you.
So basically in your mind, it's seemingly a combination of questions 1 and 3.
I have no problems with taking a RB in the first.
I have no problems with Etienne as a player worthy of a first round pick as far as his ability. If utilized properly
Any reservation I have about that pick is in relation to needs elsewhere, and uncertainty about the ability of the team to properly utilize him.
Ultimately, this was not the pick that set every pick back by one, because every guy we discussed at 25 were still there for us at 33. I would argue the Campbell pick did that, though again as a player, I had little problem with Campbell.
I posted this on Reddit and got downvoted to hell, so be it lol
Trevor Lawrence: A+
No brainer.
Travis Etienne: F
Harsh, but it’s just terrible value. A 1-15 team using premier draft capital to draft a complimentary player to what I consider the least important position in football.
Tyson Campbell: B-
Like the player don’t like the fit. Urban has already said they love his ability to play inside, but with his very poor cone and shuttle times, I don’t think he fare very well there. And with two outside CBs already locked in, I don’t see it. Asante Samuel Jr is a much better fit if we’re looking for a guy to play inside.
Walker Little: B
Hasn’t played in two years because of injuries, again a luxury type pick for a team in desperate need of talent. Don’t see him contributing much next year unless there are multiple injuries on OL. Upside is there, but a guy like Teven Jenkins was sitting there at 25.
Andre Cisco: A
Have been wanting a ball hawking safety forever. Here is the guy. Best pick outside the obvious TLaw selection imo.
It’s been an interesting draft so far with some upside, but also a lot of risk. When you have 5 picks in the top 65 coming off a 1-15 season, you have the chance to draft 5 possible starters, and I think we got 2 1/2. That Etienne irks me so bad still. Especially with Kenneth Gainwell sitting here at 106 to give us that speed, receiving threat to pair with Robinson. Jenkins at 25, Pat F at 45 and Gainwell at 106 I think served us better. But only time will tell.
(05-01-2021, 11:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 11:28 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Nothing to do with Etienne and everything to do with value.
To clarify, do you not think he represented value because you believe RBs should not be taken in the first, or do you not think Etienne was not worth a first round pick? If you are saying it has nothing to do with Etienne, then I surmise it isn't the latter.
Or was Etienne less valuable to the Jaguars because he was not as much of a need as someone at another position?
It’s a multitude of things.
1. I think Etienne is a very good player but James Robinson and Hyde would have done just fine this year.
2. If they didn’t have JRob, I would feel better about the pick.
3. I don’t value any RB in the first round unless they are a generational type RB talent. That’s not Etienne.
4. There were so many good options at 25 (Newsome, Barmore, Jenkins, Moehrig, Batemon, Elijah Moore, Oweh).
5. This team has so many holes that value and need could have been met with a myriad of players not named Etienne.
Now if Etienne ends up being the full time starter and is a 3 down back, great. But right now, that’s not what he’s going to be. For every pick except Trevor, I would have gone in a different direction but I’ll support all the players and coaches until proven otherwise.
All these rankings are cool and all, but I will let their play sort it out. The Etienne hate is very interesting being that many felt he was the best RB in the draft and we got him in the twenties.
(05-01-2021, 11:53 AM)TheSchmidt Wrote: [ -> ]Walker Little: B
Hasn’t played in two years because of injuries, again a luxury type pick for a team in desperate need of talent. Don’t see him contributing much next year unless there are multiple injuries on OL. Upside is there, but a guy like Teven Jenkins was sitting there at 25.
I've read other people, including NFL network and ESPN reference Walker Little missing the last 2 years with injuries - best I can tell, he missed the 2019 season after injuring his knee in the first game and then opted out of the 2020 season. Doesn't seem like he's injury prone, and he's now 2 years removed from his knee injury - and has spent the last year working out and preparing for the draft and the upcoming season. Going into the 2019 season he was a first team pre-season all american and was projected to potentially go in the top 10 if he declared after that season. Other than Tlaw, Little is my favorite pick of the draft - I can see him starting by mid season if not sooner. Great selection with a mid 2nd round pick!
(05-01-2021, 12:00 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 11:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]To clarify, do you not think he represented value because you believe RBs should not be taken in the first, or do you not think Etienne was not worth a first round pick? If you are saying it has nothing to do with Etienne, then I surmise it isn't the latter.
Or was Etienne less valuable to the Jaguars because he was not as much of a need as someone at another position?
It’s a multitude of things.
1. I think Etienne is a very good player but James Robinson and Hyde would have done just fine this year.
2. If they didn’t have JRob, I would feel better about the pick.
3. I don’t value any RB in the first round unless they are a generational type RB talent. That’s not Etienne.
4. There were so many good options at 25 (Newsome, Barmore, Jenkins, Moehrig, Batemon, Elijah Moore, Oweh).
5. This team has so many holes that value and need could have been met with a myriad of players not named Etienne.
Now if Etienne ends up being the full time starter and is a 3 down back, great. But right now, that’s not what he’s going to be. For every pick except Trevor, I would have gone in a different direction but I’ll support all the players and coaches until proven otherwise.
Understandable.
The more I think about the pick, I have more problems regarding how the team will utilize him.
Everyone predicted great things for Reggie Bush when he came out in 2006. He had insane speed, acceleration, good hands, change of direction, and open field ability. What he didn't have was a lot of bulk and good between the tackles running ability. In essence he was a receiving back. As a result, even a great coach like Payton didn't seem to know how to utilize him or get the most out of him. Given all the hoopla surrounding him, he should have had more impact.
While I like Ettienne as a player, it's no stretch to say he is not quite the prospect Reggie Bush was coming out. How will he be utilized? Meyer said he will be a 3rd down back. Taking that at face value, even factoring in his breakaway ability and hands, I'm not sure that role warrants a 1st round pick. He'll be an asset, but can the offense maximize his contribution?
With Etienne I think we have a top 3 RB group in the league. We have 2 rookie offensive rookie of the year candidates. There were 2 elite RBs in this draft imo and we got 1
(05-01-2021, 12:23 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]With Etienne I think we have a top 3 RB group in the league. We have 2 rookie offensive rookie of the year candidates. There were 2 elite RBs in this draft imo and we got 1
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(05-01-2021, 11:14 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 10:49 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]D+ No cedit for easy pick TLaw, picks that took brains and guts were awful.
Lawrence = Easy A+
RB = F
CB = D-
OT = D+
S = B+
What was the problem with the Campbell pick?
Not particularly a need, not very good on the agility drills, better players available, over-drafted as a CB or a CB switching to Safety at 33.
(05-01-2021, 11:22 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 10:49 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]D+ No cedit for easy pick TLaw, picks that took brains and guts were awful.
Lawrence = Easy A+
RB = F
CB = D-
OT = D+
S = B+
That's a pretty severe grade for someone as talented as Etienne. Yeah perhaps mildly overdrafted and not a need but he's still a likely difference maker on offense.
ETN is a platoon player who will not get 1st team reps at a position that generally is not a 1st round value no matter who the player is really. He's a scatback at 210 lbs who won't be all that useful on 1st and 2nd down.
(05-01-2021, 12:12 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 12:00 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]It’s a multitude of things.
1. I think Etienne is a very good player but James Robinson and Hyde would have done just fine this year.
2. If they didn’t have JRob, I would feel better about the pick.
3. I don’t value any RB in the first round unless they are a generational type RB talent. That’s not Etienne.
4. There were so many good options at 25 (Newsome, Barmore, Jenkins, Moehrig, Batemon, Elijah Moore, Oweh).
5. This team has so many holes that value and need could have been met with a myriad of players not named Etienne.
Now if Etienne ends up being the full time starter and is a 3 down back, great. But right now, that’s not what he’s going to be. For every pick except Trevor, I would have gone in a different direction but I’ll support all the players and coaches until proven otherwise.
Understandable.
The more I think about the pick, I have more problems regarding how the team will utilize him.
Everyone predicted great things for Reggie Bush when he came out in 2006. He had insane speed, acceleration, good hands, change of direction, and open field ability. What he didn't have was a lot of bulk and good between the tackles running ability. In essence he was a receiving back. As a result, even a great coach like Payton didn't seem to know how to utilize him or get the most out of him. Given all the hoopla surrounding him, he should have had more impact.
While I like Ettienne as a player, it's no stretch to say he was not quite the prospect Reggie Bush was coming out. How will he be utilized? Meyer said he will be a 3rd down back. Taking that at face value, even factoring in his breakaway ability and hands, I'm not sure that role warrants a 1st round pick. He'll be an asset, bu can the offense maximize his contribution.
Good analysis. ETN is not as good as Reggie Bush and we paid a premium for him.
Trevor Lawrence- A+
Travis Etienne- B ( due to where drafted)
Tyson Campbell-B
Walker Little- A+ (The next Boseli? Injury and opt out questions, but freak who would normally have been top 5)
Andre Cisco-B
Summary:
B+
Some question marks, but it’s not every day you draft a guy like T-Law.
Here are my grades:
Lawrence- A+ No brainer
Etienne- A+ I have wanted this guy since the first time I saw him play. Never thought we could possibly get him on our team.
Tyson Campbell- B This is an okay pick it does fill a need, and most pundits think he's a good player.
Walker Little- C+ Boom or bust pick. Talented enough to be a first round pick, but hasn't played in 2 years.
Andre Cisco- B+ Could have been a first round pick if not for the injury. But injuries these days are not as big a deal as they used to be.
Jau Tufele- B- Fills a need, good value at that spot.
Luke Farrell- D This one stumps me. Not much production in the passing game in college, but supposedly a good blocker.
Overall grade so far- B.
(05-01-2021, 12:23 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]With Etienne I think we have a top 3 RB group in the league. We have 2 rookie offensive rookie of the year candidates. There were 2 elite RBs in this draft imo and we got 1
I agree with you. I love the Etienne pick. I think he's a special player. I have wanted him since the first time I saw him play. I never thought we could possibly draft him. And the idea that "we already have a running back, we don't need another one..." that doesn't work any more. You have to have more than one.
You have to keep things in perspective. Draft picks don't have to be day one starters. The draft is meant for future value. When you keep that in perspective, rust and and injuries that can be fully recovered from do not become that big of a deal.
We have made some picks that don't need to be immediate starters. The true value for most rookies isn't realized for a couple of years anyway.
(05-01-2021, 12:12 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 12:00 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]It’s a multitude of things.
1. I think Etienne is a very good player but James Robinson and Hyde would have done just fine this year.
2. If they didn’t have JRob, I would feel better about the pick.
3. I don’t value any RB in the first round unless they are a generational type RB talent. That’s not Etienne.
4. There were so many good options at 25 (Newsome, Barmore, Jenkins, Moehrig, Batemon, Elijah Moore, Oweh).
5. This team has so many holes that value and need could have been met with a myriad of players not named Etienne.
Now if Etienne ends up being the full time starter and is a 3 down back, great. But right now, that’s not what he’s going to be. For every pick except Trevor, I would have gone in a different direction but I’ll support all the players and coaches until proven otherwise.
Understandable.
The more I think about the pick, I have more problems regarding how the team will utilize him.
Everyone predicted great things for Reggie Bush when he came out in 2006. He had insane speed, acceleration, good hands, change of direction, and open field ability. What he didn't have was a lot of bulk and good between the tackles running ability. In essence he was a receiving back. As a result, even a great coach like Payton didn't seem to know how to utilize him or get the most out of him. Given all the hoopla surrounding him, he should have had more impact.
While I like Ettienne as a player, it's no stretch to say he is not quite the prospect Reggie Bush was coming out. How will he be utilized? Meyer said he will be a 3rd down back. Taking that at face value, even factoring in his breakaway ability and hands, I'm not sure that role warrants a 1st round pick. He'll be an asset, but can the offense maximize his contribution?
Reggie Bush was the 2nd overall pick in the draft. Etienne was drafted with the 25th pick. That's a huge difference.
I am convinced that Etienne is a special player and he will do some great things for us. Remember, it's a 17 game season now, and bell cow running backs rarely last an entire season without missing games due to injury. You need more than one.
(05-01-2021, 11:44 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Tlaw - A+
Etienne - D
Campbell - C
Little - B+
Cisco - B
For once we are almost on the same page.
I would change Etienne to a C+. I am neutral about the pick but happy to give him a chance. I mean the Steelers drafted a back at 24 and their FO is premier
(05-01-2021, 04:48 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 12:12 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Understandable.
The more I think about the pick, I have more problems regarding how the team will utilize him.
Everyone predicted great things for Reggie Bush when he came out in 2006. He had insane speed, acceleration, good hands, change of direction, and open field ability. What he didn't have was a lot of bulk and good between the tackles running ability. In essence he was a receiving back. As a result, even a great coach like Payton didn't seem to know how to utilize him or get the most out of him. Given all the hoopla surrounding him, he should have had more impact.
While I like Ettienne as a player, it's no stretch to say he is not quite the prospect Reggie Bush was coming out. How will he be utilized? Meyer said he will be a 3rd down back. Taking that at face value, even factoring in his breakaway ability and hands, I'm not sure that role warrants a 1st round pick. He'll be an asset, but can the offense maximize his contribution?
Reggie Bush was the 2nd overall pick in the draft. Etienne was drafted with the 25th pick. That's a huge difference.
I am convinced that Etienne is a special player and he will do some great things for us. Remember, it's a 17 game season now, and bell cow running backs rarely last an entire season without missing games due to injury. You need more than one.
I didn't even consider that. Imagine if we made a playoff push in a couple seasons and robinson amnd Etienne were fresh
(05-01-2021, 04:45 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]You have to keep things in perspective. Draft picks don't have to be day one starters. The draft is meant for future value. When you keep that in perspective, rust and and injuries that can be fully recovered from do not become that big of a deal.
We have made some picks that don't need to be immediate starters. The true value for most rookies isn't realized for a couple of years anyway.
As a general proposition, I agree with you. But applied specifically to this team...
1. UM himself has stressed the importance of getting 4-5 starters from this group, and he has discussed the urgency of winning now;
2. We're talking about a 1-15 team. A draft of 9 picks like ours eventually was, most of whom were at the top of every round, with extra picks in the first, second, and fourth rounds, should be expected to produce that many immediate starters.
(05-01-2021, 05:02 PM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 11:44 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Tlaw - A+
Etienne - D
Campbell - C
Little - B+
Cisco - B
For once we are almost on the same page.
I would change Etienne to a C+. I am neutral about the pick but happy to give him a chance. I mean the Steelers drafted a back at 24 and their FO is premier
I thought Najee was one of the worst picks of the round too, but their team situation trying to cling on to a championship window is a lot different than ours starting year 1 of a rebuild. That makes it slightly better for them, but I'd grade both picks a D.
(05-01-2021, 05:08 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (05-01-2021, 04:45 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]You have to keep things in perspective. Draft picks don't have to be day one starters. The draft is meant for future value. When you keep that in perspective, rust and and injuries that can be fully recovered from do not become that big of a deal.
We have made some picks that don't need to be immediate starters. The true value for most rookies isn't realized for a couple of years anyway.
As a general proposition, I agree with you. But applied specifically to this team...
1. UM himself has stressed the importance of getting 4-5 starters from this group, and he has discussed the urgency of winning now;
2. We're talking about a 1-15 team. A draft of 9 picks like ours eventually was, most of whom were at the top of every round, with extra picks in the first, second, and fourth rounds, should be expected to produce that many immediate starters.
He may have stressed get getting 4-5 starters but he never said they would be starters this year.
We were a 1-15 team but we we also placed bandaids on a lot of positions through FA and a franchise tag. Once these bandaids come off, we may have 4-5 starters from this draft.