Lots of arguing over nothing in this thread.
Urban Meyer is going to do things his way. He doesn't care about revealing grades after the draft is over. Doesn't care what others think about him taking a RB in the 1st round or not.
Bottom line is that Urban Meyer has a history of success, which is something that this franchise has not experienced in a long time. The roster was basically devoid of talent and needed upgrades all over. The coaching staff is better. The roster is better. Salary cap is in good shape.
The Jags will likely only win about 4-5 games next year. Some are going to complain and say that if only UM had drafted "blank" instead of a RB at 25, we'd have gone to the SB. Not really likely with a rookie QB. Just sit back and watch how things unfold. It honestly can't be worse than what we've had for the past decade.
(05-23-2021, 10:13 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (05-22-2021, 10:15 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]They had Little at 6.8 and Cisco at 6.9.
Cisco just torn his ACL last october. Bad example.
How is that a bad example? I said this shows they didn't pick solely on value. They should rank him based on what they value (taking things like ACL recovery into the mix), then take the highest rated player, if that's how they want to do it. I'm cool with need drafting or BAP. It's Urban's job on the line. Doesn't matter to me. Just saying the didn't appear to do what they claimed. They took a 6.8 in the 2nd when there was a higher rated guy on the board. That seems like they aren't taking the best value, unless I am understanding the system wrong.
(05-23-2021, 05:54 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (05-23-2021, 10:13 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Cisco just torn his ACL last october. Bad example.
How is that a bad example? I said this shows they didn't pick solely on value. They should rank him based on what they value (taking things like ACL recovery into the mix), then take the highest rated player, if that's how they want to do it. I'm cool with need drafting or BAP. It's Urban's job on the line. Doesn't matter to me. Just saying the didn't appear to do what they claimed. They took a 6.8 in the 2nd when there was a higher rated guy on the board. That seems like they aren't taking the best value, unless I am understanding the system wrong.
It's possible they felt that they could get Cisco in the 3rd but not Little so they went with Little
(05-23-2021, 05:46 PM)navyjagfan Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of arguing over nothing in this thread.
Urban Meyer is going to do things his way. He doesn't care about revealing grades after the draft is over. Doesn't care what others think about him taking a RB in the 1st round or not.
Bottom line is that Urban Meyer has a history of success, which is something that this franchise has not experienced in a long time. The roster was basically devoid of talent and needed upgrades all over. The coaching staff is better. The roster is better. Salary cap is in good shape.
The Jags will likely only win about 4-5 games next year. Some are going to complain and say that if only UM had drafted "blank" instead of a RB at 25, we'd have gone to the SB. Not really likely with a rookie QB. Just sit back and watch how things unfold. It honestly can't be worse than what we've had for the past decade.
This 100% Meyer likely doesn't give a damn if a few of his draft grades get out after the draft. He isnt stupid, he knew cameras were in there and he knows the about the Hunt video they have been doing. Like you said too, he doesn't give a damn what people think about him taking Etienne at 25 either. There were a few guys i would of rather had but we got some great players and arguably the draft with the most potential if players can stay healthy so I'll see how it plays out
(05-23-2021, 05:46 PM)navyjagfan Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of arguing over nothing in this thread.
Urban Meyer is going to do things his way. He doesn't care about revealing grades after the draft is over. Doesn't care what others think about him taking a RB in the 1st round or not.
Bottom line is that Urban Meyer has a history of success, which is something that this franchise has not experienced in a long time. The roster was basically devoid of talent and needed upgrades all over. The coaching staff is better. The roster is better. Salary cap is in good shape.
The Jags will likely only win about 4-5 games next year. Some are going to complain and say that if only UM had drafted "blank" instead of a RB at 25, we'd have gone to the SB. Not really likely with a rookie QB. Just sit back and watch how things unfold. It honestly can't be worse than what we've had for the past decade.
Yeah, in College.
And no, no one would say that.
(05-23-2021, 05:46 PM)navyjagfan Wrote: [ -> ]Lots of arguing over nothing in this thread.
Urban Meyer is going to do things his way. He doesn't care about revealing grades after the draft is over. Doesn't care what others think about him taking a RB in the 1st round or not.
Bottom line is that Urban Meyer has a history of success, which is something that this franchise has not experienced in a long time. The roster was basically devoid of talent and needed upgrades all over. The coaching staff is better. The roster is better. Salary cap is in good shape.
The Jags will likely only win about 4-5 games next year. Some are going to complain and say that if only UM had drafted "blank" instead of a RB at 25, we'd have gone to the SB. Not really likely with a rookie QB. Just sit back and watch how things unfold. It honestly can't be worse than what we've had for the past decade.
Why couldn’t the Jags just stick to their old ways of hiring mediocre Coordinators/Assistants? The off-season hype levels for those kind of hires are what I miss most in these boards
I truly don't understand this? Not that it got leaked, but they fact that this coaching and scouting staff had Jaylen Waddle with the same score as Trevor Lawrence? Are you kidding me? Waddle was not even close to being the top WR in this draft class, much less the #2 overall player. Even people who don't follow football knew that Ja'Marr Chase was the best WR in this draft by quite a bit. There would then probably be a 50/50 split between people who would prefer DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle, so how did we have Waddle ranked so high? Thank God we had the #1 overall pick or else we might've screwed this entire draft up. To all the people committed to selecting the BAP, imagine if we had the #2 overall pick and we took Waddle? How would that have gone down? We would've had an elite WR unit and no QB to throw to them.
(05-24-2021, 07:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I truly don't understand this? Not that it got leaked, but they fact that this coaching and scouting staff had Jaylen Waddle with the same score as Trevor Lawrence? Are you kidding me? Waddle was not even close to being the top WR in this draft class, much less the #2 overall player. Even people who don't follow football knew that Ja'Marr Chase was the best WR in this draft by quite a bit. There would then probably be a 50/50 split between people who would prefer DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle, so how did we have Waddle ranked so high? Thank God we had the #1 overall pick or else we might've screwed this entire draft up. To all the people committed to selecting the BAP, imagine if we had the #2 overall pick and we took Waddle? How would that have gone down? We would've had an elite WR unit and no QB to throw to them.
No way we don't take a QB at 2.
(05-22-2021, 01:12 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Pictures in article are from "the hunt" series the jaguars put out. Interesting to see. Jaylen Waddle and Lawrence both graded as a "8.0" by the jaguars, they also had jalean philips @ 7.5. Very interesting. Also had Zach Wilson as a 7.0, aswell as ETN at 7.0
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jaguars-for...32797.html
This popped up on my phone yesterday evening. Thanks for posting - I was going to bring it up today.
(05-24-2021, 07:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Are you kidding me? Waddle was not even close to being the top WR in this draft class, much less the #2 overall player. Even people who don't follow football knew that Ja'Marr Chase was the best WR in this draft by quite a bit.
Many people believe Waddle wasn't the top WR in this draft class -> you're an idiot for not agreeing with them.
Many people believe Walker Little was worth a second day draft pick -> you're an idiot if you agree with them.
...
(05-24-2021, 08:47 AM)iapetus Wrote: [ -> ] (05-24-2021, 07:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Are you kidding me? Waddle was not even close to being the top WR in this draft class, much less the #2 overall player. Even people who don't follow football knew that Ja'Marr Chase was the best WR in this draft by quite a bit.
Many people believe Waddle wasn't the top WR in this draft class -> you're an idiot for not agreeing with them.
Many people believe Walker Little was worth a second day draft pick -> you're an idiot if you agree with them.
...
Many people believe Fields is better than Wilson-> you're an idiot if you agree with them.
(05-22-2021, 06:14 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-22-2021, 03:39 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Grades can be done different ways. Sometimes in addition to value, they also factor positional importance and need. I'm looking at the grades that we were shown. I think it is pretty obvious that these grades do not factor need or positional value. If they did, the Jaguars would not have selected a 6.8 (Little) ahead of a 6.9 (Cisco). I also think the grades are relative to the position. Basically, I think the Jaguars believe Little compared to other offensive tackles is roughly equivalent of Cisco compared to other safeties. However, they value offensive tackle much more than safety. That's why Little was taken in second round and Cisco in the third. Does anyone really believe that the Jaguars were having an internal debate about whether to take Lawrence or Waddle as both were graded 8.0? No. Basically, they thought Lawrence was an elite quarterback and Waddle was an elite wide receiver. However, positional value and need made Lawrence an easy pick despite the same grade. 7.5 may seem very high for AVT, but if the Jaguars considered him a guard and are only comparing AVT to other guards, many would probably agree with 7.5. I'm guessing the best kicker and punter probably had grades of between 7.0 and 8.0 too. I think these grades are all relative to the position and can't really be used to compare players at different positions. Some positions are more important than others.
Little and Cisco were a .1 different. I think they felt Cisco would fall to the 3rd and Little wouldn't make it there is another reason they took Little. I'd bet anything they don't have a kicker and punter rated between a 7.0.amd 8.0 lol. That's how you take a punter in the 3rd
I can't remember the last time someone so completely missed every point in one of my messages. You ignored the part where I said that I believed the grades were
"RELATIVE TO THE POSITION" and they
"DO NOT FACTOR NEED OR POSITIONAL VALUE". If a team isn't factoring positional value, then they would likely have the best punter in the draft rated a 7.0 or higher (unless it just happened to be a bad year for punters). Again, you are only comparing the punter to other punters. In absolutely no way does it mean that you draft a punter in the third round. It's the reason I brought up the position. Did you read my last two sentences.!?!? I will repeat them
"I think these grades are all relative to the position and can't really be used to compare players at different positions. Some positions are more important than others."
I admit it is a theory, but it is the theory that I find most consistent with the facts. I don't believe:
- The Jaguars were debating Waddle over Lawrence.
- The Jaguars ignored their own board.
- The Jaguars believed AVT is graded 7.5 when being compared to quarterbacks, conerbacks, etc.
I do believe:
- The Jaguars consider Lawrence an elite quarterback and Waddle an elite wide receiver.
- The Jaguars took Little because of positional value over Cisco. They think Cisco is as good of a safety as Little is of an offensive tackle, but they valued an offensive tackle more.
- The Jaguars think AVP is near elite when being compared to other offensive guards.
My theory just makes sense.
(05-24-2021, 09:35 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-22-2021, 06:14 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Little and Cisco were a .1 different. I think they felt Cisco would fall to the 3rd and Little wouldn't make it there is another reason they took Little. I'd bet anything they don't have a kicker and punter rated between a 7.0.amd 8.0 lol. That's how you take a punter in the 3rd
I can't remember the last time someone so completely missed every point in one of my messages. You ignored the part where I said that I believed the grades were "RELATIVE TO THE POSITION" and they "DO NOT FACTOR NEED OR POSITIONAL VALUE". If a team isn't factoring positional value, then they would likely have the best punter in the draft rated a 7.0 or higher (unless it just happened to be a bad year for punters). Again, you are only comparing the punter to other punters. In absolutely no way does it mean that you draft a punter in the third round. It's the reason I brought up the position. Did you read my last two sentences.!?!? I will repeat them "I think these grades are all relative to the position and can't really be used to compare players at different positions. Some positions are more important than others."
I admit it is a theory, but it is the theory that I find most consistent with the facts. I don't believe:
- The Jaguars were debating Waddle over Lawrence.
- The Jaguars ignored their own board.
- The Jaguars believed AVT is graded 7.5 when being compared to quarterbacks, conerbacks, etc.
I do believe:
- The Jaguars consider Lawrence an elite quarterback and Waddle an elite wide receiver.
- The Jaguars took Little because of positional value over Cisco. They think Cisco is as good of a safety as Little is of an offensive tackle, but they valued an offensive tackle more.
- The Jaguars think AVP is near elite when being compared to other offensive guards.
My theory just makes sense.
Well look at their NIC grade, they have Cisco a 5 in black, the same they had for Farly. Has to be injury grade and a risk, that was the biggest factor imo. They gave Little a 3 NIC grade
This day in age everyone gets to post their emotional thoughts on social media and message boards. So I might as well give my thoughts too.
As long as the Jags win then I’m happy. I am still holding out hope the team can rekindle that JOY from that magical 1996 season which propelled them to one of the best teams in the league from ‘96 to ‘00
(05-24-2021, 07:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I truly don't understand this? Not that it got leaked, but they fact that this coaching and scouting staff had Jaylen Waddle with the same score as Trevor Lawrence? Are you kidding me? Waddle was not even close to being the top WR in this draft class, much less the #2 overall player. Even people who don't follow football knew that Ja'Marr Chase was the best WR in this draft by quite a bit. There would then probably be a 50/50 split between people who would prefer DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle, so how did we have Waddle ranked so high? Thank God we had the #1 overall pick or else we might've screwed this entire draft up. To all the people committed to selecting the BAP, imagine if we had the #2 overall pick and we took Waddle? How would that have gone down? We would've had an elite WR unit and no QB to throw to them.
It's possible they could have had Chase graded 8 also, but it's not that big of a deal. I wish teams would show their draft boards after it's over.
Plenty of people had Waddle as their #1 WR in this class, just like Chase. Waddle was on his way to having the best season ever for a college WR before his injury. His elite speed is going to cause major issues in the NFL, just like it did in college. Every team is looking for that Tyreek Hill type and Waddle could be a bigger and better version.
And that's not a slight to Chase. He's great as well and there's a reason why hes considered #1 in the class by many as well. Different skillsets. They're both elite prospects.
Rumor has it this FO had Fields as their #2 QB instead of Wilson. They had a 7 grade on Wilson. They likely still would have went QB even if Chase/Waddle were there, if we didn't have the #1 pick. As you said, what good is the WR if you don't have the QB.
I don’t believe the fairy tale that others subscribe to about BAP drafting.
Every GM includes need in their draft strategy whether they admit it or not. And the term “value” includes need as well. If you’ve got a 7.5 grade on two players at two positions with similar positional value, and one of them fills a need on your roster, he is the more valuable selection.
So I don’t really care if they drafted a 6.8 ahead of a 6.9 and it doesn’t really bother me that they leaked some grades.
I just hope Meyer knows what the heck he’s doing come September. I’m hopeful, but not convinced.
(05-24-2021, 06:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t believe the fairy tale that others subscribe to about BAP drafting.
Every GM includes need in their draft strategy whether they admit it or not. And the term “value” includes need as well. If you’ve got a 7.5 grade on two players at two positions with similar positional value, and one of them fills a need on your roster, he is the more valuable selection.
So I don’t really care if they drafted a 6.8 ahead of a 6.9 and it doesn’t really bother me that they leaked some grades.
I just hope Meyer knows what the heck he’s doing come September. I’m hopeful, but not convinced.
It's not just need, and it's not just value, and it's not just a combination of the two. Sometimes, they just want a guy. They have a vision of what kind of team they want to build, what kind of offense or defense they want to run, and how that guy fits their vision. I'm not talking about Tebow. I'm talking about Kadarius Toney and Travis Etienne. They wanted one of those. Were they the best value? Did they fit the need that Charley Messageboardposter thinks is a team need? Maybe, maybe not. But the bottom line is, most teams draft guys they want- guys that fit their vision of how they want to build their team.
At least, that's my operative theory of the moment.
(05-25-2021, 04:49 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (05-24-2021, 06:26 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t believe the fairy tale that others subscribe to about BAP drafting.
Every GM includes need in their draft strategy whether they admit it or not. And the term “value” includes need as well. If you’ve got a 7.5 grade on two players at two positions with similar positional value, and one of them fills a need on your roster, he is the more valuable selection.
So I don’t really care if they drafted a 6.8 ahead of a 6.9 and it doesn’t really bother me that they leaked some grades.
I just hope Meyer knows what the heck he’s doing come September. I’m hopeful, but not convinced.
It's not just need, and it's not just value, and it's not just a combination of the two. Sometimes, they just want a guy. They have a vision of what kind of team they want to build, what kind of offense or defense they want to run, and how that guy fits their vision. I'm not talking about Tebow. I'm talking about Kadarius Toney and Travis Etienne. They wanted one of those. Were they the best value? Did they fit the need that Charley Messageboardposter thinks is a team need? Maybe, maybe not. But the bottom line is, most teams draft guys they want- guys that fit their vision of how they want to build their team.
At least, that's my operative theory of the moment.
Essentially repeating the less enthusiastic version, the coach doesn't know how to make an effective scheme with the personnel they have (fit scheme to players), they have a system they want to run and need to fit players to that scheme.
You really could just say "not a difference maker coach" and save everyone's time.
Who really cares? At the end of the day they are all college prospects. The time to "judge" is when any of these college players take a real snap in the NFL and that includes Trevor Lawrence. College football != NFL football.
(05-25-2021, 05:17 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (05-25-2021, 04:49 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]It's not just need, and it's not just value, and it's not just a combination of the two. Sometimes, they just want a guy. They have a vision of what kind of team they want to build, what kind of offense or defense they want to run, and how that guy fits their vision. I'm not talking about Tebow. I'm talking about Kadarius Toney and Travis Etienne. They wanted one of those. Were they the best value? Did they fit the need that Charley Messageboardposter thinks is a team need? Maybe, maybe not. But the bottom line is, most teams draft guys they want- guys that fit their vision of how they want to build their team.
At least, that's my operative theory of the moment.
Essentially repeating the less enthusiastic version, the coach doesn't know how to make an effective scheme with the personnel they have (fit scheme to players), they have a system they want to run and need to fit players to that scheme.
You really could just say "not a difference maker coach" and save everyone's time.
Well, that's certainly the negative way to spin it.