Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(02-20-2022, 10:50 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 09:56 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]I never said Allen was perfect lol, no QB is.  But I think Allen is the best QB in the league right now.  No I don't think KC wins that game if it was in Buff.  Buff should of won when they took the lead with 13 seconds left but they left Kelce wide open and then couldn't keep up with Hill.  If Buff. won that game I think they would of beat Cincy and the Rams in the SB

But your reasoning for not saying Mahomes is the best is because he doesn’t show up when it matters most.

And yet Josh Allen, who got outplayed by Mahomes in the playoffs twice, is the best QB in the league. Do you not see the irony?

Allen didn't get outplayed by Mahomes in either game they played this year.  Thats not the only reason I think Allen is better.  Both are great passers with strong arms, Allen is a better runner than Mohimes and I think he could be even berter if he had a top 5 All time TE

(02-20-2022, 11:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 10:50 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]But your reasoning for not saying Mahomes is the best is because he doesn’t show up when it matters most.

And yet Josh Allen, who got outplayed by Mahomes in the playoffs twice, is the best QB in the league. Do you not see the irony?

Allen didn't get outplayed by Mahomes in either game they played this year.  Thats not the only reason I think Allen is better.  Both are great passers with strong arms, Allen is a better runner than Mohimes and I think he could be even berter if he had a top 5 All time TE

I said playoffs.

Also. Mahomes had more passing yards and more rushing yards in the playoff game this year. Not to mention they won. So I would say Mahomes outplayed him this year.

Then last year (when it mattered most) Mahomes had more passing yards and TDs than Allen.

Your notion that Mahomes doesn’t show up is false.

(02-20-2022, 11:07 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 11:00 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Allen didn't get outplayed by Mahomes in either game they played this year.  Thats not the only reason I think Allen is better.  Both are great passers with strong arms, Allen is a better runner than Mohimes and I think he could be even berter if he had a top 5 All time TE

I said playoffs.

Also. Mahomes had more passing yards and more rushing yards in the playoff game this year. Not to mention they won. So I would say Mahomes outplayed him this year.

Then last year (when it mattered most) Mahomes had more passing yards and TDs than Allen.

Your notion that Mahomes doesn’t show up is false.

He's been to the last 4 AFC championship games and 2 SBs and has 1 ring, the Chiefs are loaded with talent and Hill and Kelce are only going to be in their prime for so long.  Cincy was down 21-3 and KC was inside the 5 right before the half and Mahomes couldn't get it in the endzone before the half.  Then Cincy comes back and wins with Mahomes making multiple mistakes.  Last year they blamed it on the oline so the GM went out and drafted a center that had the best grade in the whole league at C, traded for one of the best LTs in the league and signed the best guard in FA and he still couldn't get it done.

(02-20-2022, 11:21 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 11:07 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I said playoffs.

Also. Mahomes had more passing yards and more rushing yards in the playoff game this year. Not to mention they won. So I would say Mahomes outplayed him this year.

Then last year (when it mattered most) Mahomes had more passing yards and TDs than Allen.

Your notion that Mahomes doesn’t show up is false.

He's been to the last 4 AFC championship games and 2 SBs and has 1 ring, the Chiefs are loaded with talent and Hill and Kelce are only going to be in their prime for so long.  Cincy was down 21-3 and KC was inside the 5 right before the half and Mahomes couldn't get it in the endzone before the half.  Then Cincy comes back and wins with Mahomes making multiple mistakes.  Last year they blamed it on the oline so the GM went out and drafted a center that had the best grade in the whole league at C, traded for one of the best LTs in the league and signed the best guard in FA and he still couldn't get it done.

Wait a minute.

The Mahomes led offense put up 31 points in their loss to New England in that first AFC Championship game, only to lose the game in overtime when the Patriots won the toss.  The Chiefs never were able to get the ball.  That was made possible when a Chiefs DE lined up offsides on a play that would have stopped the Patriots from tying the game in regulation.  How does that equate to Mahomes not showing up?

They lost the Super Bowl to Tampa because both of his starting Ts were out with injury and the subs could not block the Tampa defense.  How does THAT equate to Mahomes not showing up?!?

The hilarious thing is that to get to those four AFC Championship games and 2 Super Bowls, Mahomes had to beat Allen head to head twice.

The fact is, Mahomes has never been knocked from the playoffs before the AFC championship game.  Allen can't say that.  He's been to all of 1 AFC Championship game and lost that one.  He's also been knocked out of the wild card round and the divisional round.

If you are going to use surrounding talent as a reason to bash Mahomes, how can you NOT use it to bash Allen?  Buffalo has a more talented overall team than Cincinnati this year, yet Cincinnati got further than Buffalo.  If Mahomes is to be penalized in your analysis for not fuly capitalizing on superior surrounding talent, how can you not hold Allen to the same standard?

Allen is much better than Burrow.

(02-20-2022, 11:34 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 11:21 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]He's been to the last 4 AFC championship games and 2 SBs and has 1 ring, the Chiefs are loaded with talent and Hill and Kelce are only going to be in their prime for so long.  Cincy was down 21-3 and KC was inside the 5 right before the half and Mahomes couldn't get it in the endzone before the half.  Then Cincy comes back and wins with Mahomes making multiple mistakes.  Last year they blamed it on the oline so the GM went out and drafted a center that had the best grade in the whole league at C, traded for one of the best LTs in the league and signed the best guard in FA and he still couldn't get it done.

Wait a minute.

The Mahomes led offense put up 31 points in their loss to New England in that first AFC Championship game, only to lose the game in overtime when the Patriots won the toss.  The Chiefs never were able to get the ball.  That was made possible when a Chiefs DE lined up offsides on a play that would have stopped the Patriots from tying the game in regulation.  How does that equate to Mahomes not showing up?

They lost the Super Bowl to Tampa because both of his starting Ts were out with injury and the subs could not block the Tampa defense.  How does THAT equate to Mahomes not showing up?!?

The hilarious thing is that to get to those four AFC Championship games and 2 Super Bowls, Mahomes had to beat Allen head to head twice.

The fact is, Mahomes has never been knocked from the playoffs before the AFC championship game.  Allen can't say that.  He's been to all of 1 AFC Championship game and lost that one.  He's also been knocked out of the wild card round and the divisional round.

If you are going to use surrounding talent as a reason to bash Mahomes, how can you NOT use it to bash Allen?  Buffalo has a more talented overall team than Cincinnati this year, yet Cincinnati got further than Buffalo.  If Mahomes is to be penalized in your analysis for not fuly capitalizing on superior surrounding talent, how can you not hold Allen to the same standard?

With Buff. best defender out,  I don't think they do have a better roster than Cincy.  Oooooh, the ole the Chiefs were never able to get the ball quote, isn't that what happened to the Bills this year even after Allen took the lead with 13 sec and the defense couldn't stop Kelce and Hill? Lol. And putting Mahomes 3rd on my list is bashing Mahomes? You have admitted you hated the Bills and have never liked Allen so it won't matter what he does.

(02-21-2022, 06:54 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-20-2022, 11:34 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Wait a minute.

The Mahomes led offense put up 31 points in their loss to New England in that first AFC Championship game, only to lose the game in overtime when the Patriots won the toss.  The Chiefs never were able to get the ball.  That was made possible when a Chiefs DE lined up offsides on a play that would have stopped the Patriots from tying the game in regulation.  How does that equate to Mahomes not showing up?

They lost the Super Bowl to Tampa because both of his starting Ts were out with injury and the subs could not block the Tampa defense.  How does THAT equate to Mahomes not showing up?!?

The hilarious thing is that to get to those four AFC Championship games and 2 Super Bowls, Mahomes had to beat Allen head to head twice.

The fact is, Mahomes has never been knocked from the playoffs before the AFC championship game.  Allen can't say that.  He's been to all of 1 AFC Championship game and lost that one.  He's also been knocked out of the wild card round and the divisional round.

If you are going to use surrounding talent as a reason to bash Mahomes, how can you NOT use it to bash Allen?  Buffalo has a more talented overall team than Cincinnati this year, yet Cincinnati got further than Buffalo.  If Mahomes is to be penalized in your analysis for not fuly capitalizing on superior surrounding talent, how can you not hold Allen to the same standard?

With Buff. best defender out,  I don't think they do have a better roster than Cincy.  Oooooh, the ole the Chiefs were never able to get the ball quote, isn't that what happened to the Bills this year even after Allen took the lead with 13 sec and the defense couldn't stop Kelce and Hill? Lol

How could you NOT believe Buffalo had the better roster overall compared to Cincy?

Coming into the season, did you  or anyone else pick Cincy to somehow finish ahead of Buffalo when Burrow was coming off a season ending knee injury and entering only his second year?  Fif you manage to pick the Bengals to finish ahead of the Bills when the Bengals were coming off a 4-11 season and Buffalo was coming off a 13-3 season, only narrowly losing the AFC championship game the year before?

After this regular season played out, how could you not think Buffalo had the better team between them and Cincy?  You just acknowledged Buffalo had the better defense between the two teams.  In fact, Buffalo finished with the top scoring defense in the league.  How could you not think Buffalo had the better team than Cincinnati when Bengals QBs had been sacked some 55 times in the regular season, as opposed to exactly half that total by Bills' QBs?   How could you NOT think Buffalo had the better team when they were coached by Sean McDermott, who had taken Buffalo to the playoffs four out of the last 5 seasons while the Bengals were coached by Zac Taylor, who won all of 6 games his first two seasons in the league?  Heck, according to you, Buffalo even has the better QB.  How could you NOT think Buffalo was the better team than Cincy when they finished with a better record this year?  So to sum, Buffalo was presumably better coached, better QBd (per you), had a better defense and a better O-Line.  Combining the two, it would seem the only advantage the bengals might have enjoyed over the Bills were maybe at WR and RB.  So with all of those innate advantages, the Allen still could not advance further than the Bengals?!?  What does that suggest for your whole HOF surrounding talent for Mahomes argument?

As for citing the OT loss, I wasn't complaining about the fairness of the rule.  I cited that only to show that the first loss in the AFC Championship you cited was not his fault.

What I believe you are trying to say with putting Allen atop the QB rankings is that he has the best physical tools of any QB.  If that's the case, that is a more plausible argument overall.  His combination of size, speed and arm strength is superior to that if every other QB.  Two problems with that approach:  1. Physical tools are not the only measures of a QB; 2.  It's largely difficult to quantify.  Does Lamar Jackson's combination of arm strength, size and speed make him a better QB than Tom Brady?  Why or why not?

Unless I have somehow grossly misinterpreted the meaning behind the various post season awards, the NFL typically doesn't hand out participation trophies.  This isn't college football where there are a slew of meaningless bowl games with zero relevance to all but the participants.  Somewhere along the line, actual results count.  Somehow, results matter.  At the end of the day, Allen hasn't produced any better results than say Ryan Tannehill.  A head to head comparison shows that in almost every conceivable measure, Mahomes has produced better results than Allen.  Despite having a team most felt was inferior to Buffalo's, despite playing in the league half as long or less than Allen, Burrow managed to reach a Super Bowl while Allen has not.

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(02-21-2022, 05:13 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Allen is much better than Burrow.

Based on what?

Please see my closing paragraphs in my latest response to flgators.

(02-21-2022, 07:39 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-21-2022, 06:54 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]With Buff. best defender out,  I don't think they do have a better roster than Cincy.  Oooooh, the ole the Chiefs were never able to get the ball quote, isn't that what happened to the Bills this year even after Allen took the lead with 13 sec and the defense couldn't stop Kelce and Hill? Lol

How could you NOT believe Buffalo had the better roster overall compared to Cincy?

Coming into the season, did you  or anyone else pick Cincy to somehow finish ahead of Buffalo when Burrow was coming off a season ending knee injury and entering only his second year?  Fif you manage to pick the Bengals to finish ahead of the Bills when the Bengals were coming off a 4-11 season and Buffalo was coming off a 13-3 season, only narrowly losing the AFC championship game the year before?

After this regular season played out, how could you not think Buffalo had the better team between them and Cincy?  You just acknowledged Buffalo had the better defense between the two teams.  In fact, Buffalo finished with the top scoring defense in the league.  How could you not think Buffalo had the better team than Cincinnati when Bengals QBs had been sacked some 55 times in the regular season, as opposed to exactly half that total by Bills' QBs?   How could you NOT think Buffalo had the better team when they were coached by Sean McDermott, who had taken Buffalo to the playoffs four out of the last 5 seasons while the Bengals were coached by Zac Taylor, who won all of 6 games his first two seasons in the league?  Heck, according to you, Buffalo even has the better QB.  How could you NOT think Buffalo was the better team than Cincy when they finished with a better record this year?  So to sum, Buffalo was presumably better coached, better QBd (per you), had a better defense and a better O-Line.  Combining the two, it would seem the only advantage the bengals might have enjoyed over the Bills were maybe at WR and RB.  So with all of those innate advantages, the Allen still could not advance further than the Bengals?!?  What does that suggest for your whole HOF surrounding talent for Mahomes argument?

As for citing the OT loss, I wasn't complaining about the fairness of the rule.  I cited that only to show that the first loss in the AFC Championship you cited was not his fault.

What I believe you are trying to say with putting Allen atop the QB rankings is that he has the best physical tools of any QB.  If that's the case, that is a more plausible argument overall.  His combination of size, speed and arm strength is superior to that if every other QB.  Two problems with that approach:  1. Physical tools are not the only measures of a QB; 2.  It's largely difficult to quantify.  Does Lamar Jackson's combination of arm strength, size and speed make him a better QB than Tom Brady?  Why or why not?

Unless I have somehow grossly misinterpreted the meaning behind the various post season awards, the NFL typically doesn't hand out participation trophies.  This isn't college football where there are a slew of meaningless bowl games with zero relevance to all but the participants.  Somewhere along the line, actual results count.  Somehow, results matter.  At the end of the day, Allen hasn't produced any better results than say Ryan Tannehill.  A head to head comparison shows that in almost every conceivable measure, Mahomes has produced better results than Allen.  Despite having a team most felt was inferior to Buffalo's, despite playing in the league half as long or less than Allen, Burrow managed to reach a Super Bowl while Allen has not.

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(02-21-2022, 05:13 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Allen is much better than Burrow.

Based on what?

Please see my closing paragraphs in my latest response to flgators.

Yes Mahomes has been better and yes Mahomes has better stats than Allen and has also has a better supporting cast than Allen.  I'm talking about right now, not what they did 2 years ago or the year before that.  Right now I feel like Allen is a better QB than Mahomes and every other QB.  His coaching staff and defense let him down or he would likely have a ring.  In his 2 playoff games he had 9 TFs and 12 incompletions, he took the lead with 13 sec. left and the D couldn't stop Kelce and Hill. If the Bills best defender in White played I think they would have won

Let's see yalls top 5 QB rankings

Brady is still the best QB in the league though and has been for the last 20 years. If he goes to SF I'm taking them to win the SB. Kittle and Samuel will be deadly with Brady at QB. If Gronk goes there with Kittle, it won't even be fair

(02-21-2022, 09:47 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Brady is still the best QB in the league though and has been for the last 20 years.  If he goes to SF I'm taking them to win the SB.  Kittle and Samuel will be deadly with Brady at QB.  If Gronk goes there with Kittle, it won't even be fair

No chance the Bucs let Brady go to the 49ers. They own his rights.

(02-20-2022, 04:22 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Local sports talk radio was discussing this yesterday. Personally, I just think Acho was doing something outlandish to get attention. His list didn't make any sense and I think he knew ranking it that way and discussing it on national television was gonna get him a lot of exposure. Either that or he really is crazy.

Case in point, before this thread I had forgotten that Sam Acho existed.

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(02-20-2022, 02:38 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If I could take any QB in the league right now, I'd probably take Allen.

Before this postseason, my answer probably would have been Herbert. Burrow may have surpassed him.

Allen is very darn good. Mahomes is too, but Mahomes' contract is going to start whittling away at the rest of the chefs' roster. Allen is probably the scrappiest, if needed to improvise.

If I'm building a franchise, though, "improvise" is not my gameplan.

I think there are reasonable narratives out there allowing one to make a case for Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Rodgers, or of course Brady if we're still including the "retired."

To me - the main thing is that these guys are the "elite" tier of QBs. With a good coach and a decent roster they'll all win a bunch of games. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "interchangeable" but it doesn't really matter to me how one ranks them. They are the top tier guys. All worthy of respect.

Murray is on the cusp of the tier but there are some question marks. He is also forced to be overly creative with throwing lanes at times due to size. That is a strike against him cementing himself in the elite tier IMO.

(02-21-2022, 12:10 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are reasonable narratives out there allowing one to make a case for Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Rodgers, or of course Brady if we're still including the "retired."

To me - the main thing is that these guys are the "elite" tier of QBs.  With a good coach and a decent roster they'll all win a bunch of games. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "interchangeable" but it doesn't really matter to me how one ranks them. They are the top tier guys. All worthy of respect.

Murray is on the cusp of the tier but there are some question marks. He is also forced to be overly creative with throwing lanes at times due to size. That is a strike against him cementing himself in the elite tier IMO.

Murray is nowhere near the elite tier, and while I have respected a lot of your opinions I've seen on the board so far, that one just called into question this entire post.

I'm not sure it's fair to take Mahomes' and Allen's total career stats as an indication of how they'd be ranked right now. Mahomes was amazing right off the bat, and Allen was in his third year before accuracy became a strength rather than a liability.

I tell you what though. I've never seen a more impressive display of passing by 2 QBs in a game than the divisional game between KC and Buffalo. Both guys were making every possible throw from every angle with precision and accuracy like nothing I've ever seen before. Just amazing arm talent between the two and a shame one of them had to lose.

If Allen had the ball last, he may have had a chance to pass Mahomes as numero uno, but he didn't. Mahomes is still #1 with Allen a close 2nd in my book.

Burrow, Rodgers, Herbert in that order afterwards for me. Rodgers has added quite a bit to it recently, but until about 3 or 4 years ago, I remember looking up 4th quarter comebacks, and the dude had like 6! It was completely bizarre to see a lot of the names on that list ahead of him while he was being talked about as one of the best of all time. I certainly wouldn't kick him off the team, but I would take any of the other 4 QBs at this stage in their careers over him.

(02-21-2022, 12:46 PM)Khan Artist Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-21-2022, 12:10 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are reasonable narratives out there allowing one to make a case for Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Rodgers, or of course Brady if we're still including the "retired."

To me - the main thing is that these guys are the "elite" tier of QBs.  With a good coach and a decent roster they'll all win a bunch of games. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "interchangeable" but it doesn't really matter to me how one ranks them. They are the top tier guys. All worthy of respect.

Murray is on the cusp of the tier but there are some question marks. He is also forced to be overly creative with throwing lanes at times due to size. That is a strike against him cementing himself in the elite tier IMO.

Murray is nowhere near the elite tier, and while I have respected a lot of your opinions I've seen on the board so far, that one just called into question this entire post.

Meh. I don't really give a [BLEEP] about where Murray falls in the 2nd tier of QBs or whether you think he's worthy of mention or not. 

I was very impressed by a number of his games this season. Feel free to disregard all of my takes over it if you'd like.

(02-21-2022, 12:10 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are reasonable narratives out there allowing one to make a case for Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Rodgers, or of course Brady if we're still including the "retired."

To me - the main thing is that these guys are the "elite" tier of QBs.  With a good coach and a decent roster they'll all win a bunch of games. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "interchangeable" but it doesn't really matter to me how one ranks them. They are the top tier guys. All worthy of respect.

Murray is on the cusp of the tier but there are some question marks. He is also forced to be overly creative with throwing lanes at times due to size. That is a strike against him cementing himself in the elite tier IMO.

I've still yet to hear these reasonable narratives as to why Allen is better than Mahomes.

I've seen people assert that what happened 2-3 years ago should not matter in the discussion about their merits, which is an odd stance considering both are still very much in their primes, both came into the league a year apart and both played in a similar number of games.  But even going with that and just looking at this year's totals, the edge still goes to Mahomes.

The most recent season, 2021, Mahomes led his team to a 12-5 record.  He was 436-658 for 4839 yards, 37 TDs and 13 INTs. 

By contrast, Allen led his team to an 11-6 record.  He was 409-646 for 4407 yards, 36 TDs and 15 INTs.

While the numbers are very close, the edge still goes to Mahomes.  Mahomes threw more TDs fewer INTs, more yards, a better record, and when it mattered most, beat Allen head to head.

If you are going by just this year, Burrow is better than Allen.

Burrow, recovering from the ACL, QBed his team for 16 games, compiling a 10-6 record.  He went 366-520, 4611 yards 34 TDs and 14 INTs.  Throwing 126 fewer passes, he threw for more yards, a higher completion percentage, two fewer TDs and 1 fewer INTs.  He had a higher ypa by TWO YARDS and actually managed to take his inferior team to the Super Bowl.

So even using this standard of just the most recent year, there's still ample evidence that Allen is 3rd best behind Mahomes and Burrow.

If you include Justin Herbert in the mix, Allen arguably falls further down.

Herbert went 443-672 for 5014 yards, 38 TDs and 15 INTs.  He had a higher completion percentage than Allen, threw more TDs, more yards and the same # of INTs and a higher ypa than Allen despite throwing 26 more passes with an inferior team to Allen.  He doesn't have the playoffs yet, so obviously that works against him.  But being on a worse team, it's understandable.

(02-21-2022, 12:50 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure it's fair to take Mahomes' and Allen's total career stats as an indication of how they'd be ranked right now.  Mahomes was amazing right off the bat, and Allen was in his third year before accuracy became a strength rather than a liability.

I tell you what though.  I've never seen a more impressive display of passing by 2 QBs in a game than the divisional game between KC and Buffalo.  Both guys were making every possible throw from every angle with precision and accuracy like nothing I've ever seen before.  Just amazing arm talent between the two and a shame one of them had to lose.

If Allen had the ball last, he may have had a chance to pass Mahomes as numero uno, but he didn't.  Mahomes is still #1 with Allen a close 2nd in my book.

Burrow, Rodgers, Herbert in that order afterwards for me.  Rodgers has added quite a bit to it recently, but until about 3 or 4 years ago, I remember looking up 4th quarter comebacks, and the dude had like 6!  It was completely bizarre to see a lot of the names on that list ahead of him while he was being talked about as one of the best of all time.  I certainly wouldn't kick him off the team, but I would take any of the other 4 QBs at this stage in their careers over him.

Considering Mahomes rode the bench for most of his rookie year, I'm not sure it's fair to say he was amazing right off the bat.  On top of that, why penalize Mahomes in any comparison if he was more ready to play coming into the league than Allen was?

That said, you are absolutely right that the two of them put on an absolutely amazing display in that playoff game.  Allen certainly had nothing to be ashamed of.  In fact, his performance along with Mahomes will go into history as one of the best playoff performances ever.  To be honest, if Trevor Lawrence is playing at Allen's level at a similar stage in his career, Jaguars fans should be quite happy.  I know I would be.

That said, there is scant objective rationale for saying Allen is a better QB than Mahomes at this point.  But there is plenty suggesting he is the 4th best QB in the AFC.

(02-21-2022, 04:23 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-21-2022, 12:50 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure it's fair to take Mahomes' and Allen's total career stats as an indication of how they'd be ranked right now.  Mahomes was amazing right off the bat, and Allen was in his third year before accuracy became a strength rather than a liability.

I tell you what though.  I've never seen a more impressive display of passing by 2 QBs in a game than the divisional game between KC and Buffalo.  Both guys were making every possible throw from every angle with precision and accuracy like nothing I've ever seen before.  Just amazing arm talent between the two and a shame one of them had to lose.

If Allen had the ball last, he may have had a chance to pass Mahomes as numero uno, but he didn't.  Mahomes is still #1 with Allen a close 2nd in my book.

Burrow, Rodgers, Herbert in that order afterwards for me.  Rodgers has added quite a bit to it recently, but until about 3 or 4 years ago, I remember looking up 4th quarter comebacks, and the dude had like 6!  It was completely bizarre to see a lot of the names on that list ahead of him while he was being talked about as one of the best of all time.  I certainly wouldn't kick him off the team, but I would take any of the other 4 QBs at this stage in their careers over him.

Considering Mahomes rode the bench for most of his rookie year, I'm not sure it's fair to say he was amazing right off the bat.  On top of that, why penalize Mahomes in any comparison if he was more ready to play coming into the league than Allen was?

That said, you are absolutely right that the two of them put on an absolutely amazing display in that playoff game.  Allen certainly had nothing to be ashamed of.  In fact, his performance along with Mahomes will go into history as one of the best playoff performances ever.  To be honest, if Trevor Lawrence is playing at Allen's level at a similar stage in his career, Jaguars fans should be quite happy.  I know I would be.

That said, there is scant objective rationale for saying Allen is a better QB than Mahomes at this point.  But there is plenty suggesting he is the 4th best QB in the AFC.

I don't feel like I'm penalizing Mahomes for letting Allen off the hook a bit for having trouble hitting water from a boat in his first couple of years.  I'm just not penalizing Allen for it.  The knock on him coming out of college was accuracy, so his transformation is nothing short of amazing.  That and I said Mahomes was still my #1.

I'm still taking Allen over Burrow and Herbert, though it's not an easy decision at all, and it's really just due to his ability as a runner.  3rd or 4th and short, Allen is almost indefensible.
I've barely seen Herbert play though, so maybe he'll change my mind if he starts willing his team to wins like those two do...  And Burrow for that matter.

Felt like the golden age of quarterbacking was coming to an end with so many great QBs closing out their careers, but man these guys all look good.

(02-23-2022, 05:55 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-21-2022, 04:23 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Considering Mahomes rode the bench for most of his rookie year, I'm not sure it's fair to say he was amazing right off the bat.  On top of that, why penalize Mahomes in any comparison if he was more ready to play coming into the league than Allen was?

That said, you are absolutely right that the two of them put on an absolutely amazing display in that playoff game.  Allen certainly had nothing to be ashamed of.  In fact, his performance along with Mahomes will go into history as one of the best playoff performances ever.  To be honest, if Trevor Lawrence is playing at Allen's level at a similar stage in his career, Jaguars fans should be quite happy.  I know I would be.

That said, there is scant objective rationale for saying Allen is a better QB than Mahomes at this point.  But there is plenty suggesting he is the 4th best QB in the AFC.

I don't feel like I'm penalizing Mahomes for letting Allen off the hook a bit for having trouble hitting water from a boat in his first couple of years.  I'm just not penalizing Allen for it.  The knock on him coming out of college was accuracy, so his transformation is nothing short of amazing.  That and I said Mahomes was still my #1.

I'm still taking Allen over Burrow and Herbert, though it's not an easy decision at all, and it's really just due to his ability as a runner.  3rd or 4th and short, Allen is almost indefensible.
I've barely seen Herbert play though, so maybe he'll change my mind if he starts willing his team to wins like those two do...  And Burrow for that matter.

Felt like the golden age of quarterbacking was coming to an end with so many great QBs closing out their careers, but man these guys all look good.

I will say a couple of things.

I think Allen is the most physically gifted QB in the league.  I also believe if he makes it to/wins a Super Bowl, as much as I would hate to admit it, he would be in the top 3 in the league and there would be legitimate debate over whether he is the best.  Without the accomplishments, though, it's tough for me to make that case for him being the best, especially when other players have equal or better stats, more accolades, and more accomplishments.

We are in complete agreement regarding a new golden age of QBs...especially in the AFC.  I just hope that TL will soon be included in these types of conversations.  One good thing about this debate/discussion is we have a clearer idea of the kind of statistical standard to which he will be held.  The good thing is we have a coach and coaching staff that can get him there, provided they get him surrounding help.