(07-05-2022, 07:43 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (07-04-2022, 04:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Trump didn't really have any policies except the tax cut and moving a US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jersualem. He enacted some tariffs which were not very high and easily circumvented by shipping product through unsanctioned countries like the Philippines.
Look at the homework assignments that Congress has:
Updating the Voting Rights Act (did you know there are no federal standards for mail in voting? Seems important!)
Updating the Federal communications Act (remember section 230?)
Updating the Environmental protection act
Updating immigration policy (where's the wall?)
He just couldn't get it done, even with his majorities. And instead of being smart, and having a coherent plan to get more members of Congress who agreed with a certain policy he actually wanted to implement, he simply endorsed whicher candidate was most obsequious to him, and he never explained to anyone how he wanted any of these things done, so even all these people he got elected with bootlicking loyalty pledges didn't know what they were supposed to do. And he obviously didn’t get enough of them, because Pelosi became Speaker in 2019. And he had absolutely no understanding of how primary elections were more likely to work against his goals as for them, and how they also need to be updated.
Trump was a very ineffective President. The one nice thing I'll say is Biden is shaping up to be equally ineffective.
Neither man seems to understand the times.
Construction of the wall (apparently one of Trump's forgotten accomplishments) was halted by Biden in his first week in office. Biden is worse than ineffective, he's destructive.
Right. The construction was extremely slow and now it's over and nowhere near complete.
Why?
Because it didn't pass Congress as a budget item. Trump couldn't persuade Congress to do what he thought needed to be done. Then he couldn't win a second term. If Congress had mandated the spending, the construction might be ongoing today, and perhaps done.
(07-05-2022, 08:58 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 07:43 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]Construction of the wall (apparently one of Trump's forgotten accomplishments) was halted by Biden in his first week in office. Biden is worse than ineffective, he's destructive.
Right. The construction was extremely slow and now it's over and nowhere near complete.
Why?
Because it didn't pass Congress as a budget item. Trump couldn't persuade Congress to do what he thought needed to be done. Then he couldn't win a second term. If Congress had mandated the spending, the construction might be ongoing today, and perhaps done.
And so what we see just continues to be true, the government is the enemy of the People.
(07-05-2022, 10:18 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 08:58 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Right. The construction was extremely slow and now it's over and nowhere near complete.
Why?
Because it didn't pass Congress as a budget item. Trump couldn't persuade Congress to do what he thought needed to be done. Then he couldn't win a second term. If Congress had mandated the spending, the construction might be ongoing today, and perhaps done.
And so what we see just continues to be true, the government is the enemy of the People.
We picked all of the members of Congress.
How can we do better?
(07-05-2022, 06:02 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-04-2022, 05:01 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]You think Biden’s significantly more or less effective? What do you mean by effective? I listed the things I thought a President should be doing, so, any President not doing them is ineffective in my book. What do you think a President's job is or should be these days?
I think Trump was more effective than Biden because Trump was a Republican, and, in general, Republican policies are more effective than Democrat policies. But I think almost any other Republican would have been more effective than Trump.
But if anyone cannot see by now why Trump should never be President, there's no amount of persuading that will work, so I'll leave it at that.
Trump is reverse Batman, bro. He's not the hero we deserve, but he's the hero we need. Until the establishment is brought to heel, we need somebody that will stand against it, if for no other reason than to bring to light the ways they are exploiting us. I would happily take a refined version of that, but I'm not sure that will expose the corruption effectively. I think DeSantis might have a chance, but even though he does a good job of political maneuvering, I question whether he has the guts to actually clean up DC.
(07-05-2022, 11:50 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 06:02 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think Trump was more effective than Biden because Trump was a Republican, and, in general, Republican policies are more effective than Democrat policies. But I think almost any other Republican would have been more effective than Trump.
But if anyone cannot see by now why Trump should never be President, there's no amount of persuading that will work, so I'll leave it at that.
Trump is reverse Batman, bro. He's not the hero we deserve, but he's the hero we need. Until the establishment is brought to heel, we need somebody that will stand against it, if for no other reason than to bring to light the ways they are exploiting us. I would happily take a refined version of that, but I'm not sure that will expose the corruption effectively. I think DeSantis might have a chance, but even though he does a good job of political maneuvering, I question whether he has the guts to actually clean up DC.
How is the establishment exploiting us, and how did Trump expose it?
(07-05-2022, 11:52 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 11:50 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Trump is reverse Batman, bro. He's not the hero we deserve, but he's the hero we need. Until the establishment is brought to heel, we need somebody that will stand against it, if for no other reason than to bring to light the ways they are exploiting us. I would happily take a refined version of that, but I'm not sure that will expose the corruption effectively. I think DeSantis might have a chance, but even though he does a good job of political maneuvering, I question whether he has the guts to actually clean up DC.
How is the establishment exploiting us, and how did Trump expose it?
LOL... really? Which branch of the government do you work for?
(07-05-2022, 12:22 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 11:52 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]How is the establishment exploiting us, and how did Trump expose it?
LOL... really? Which branch of the government do you work for?
If it's so obvious, why don't you take a minute to explain it?
We take it as a given that the government is somewhat corrupt, but, your thesis is that Trump exposed this, and worked against it, in such a uniquely effective way that we need him to come back. Can you give an example?
(07-05-2022, 12:24 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 12:22 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ]LOL... really? Which branch of the government do you work for?
If it's so obvious, why don't you take a minute to explain it?
We take it as a given that the government is somewhat corrupt, but, your thesis is that Trump exposed this, and worked against it, in such a uniquely effective way that we need him to come back. Can you give an example?
Somewhat corrupt? I feel like we all had this conversation already. First things first, we have a bunch of UNELECTED career bureaucrats running everything. Let's start there.
"
“The Deep State”, aptly and dubiously dubbed by the Master troll always had an abstract meaning for me. Ya, I knew non elected officials were the ones running the government, but really wasn’t clear on what exactly that meant. I do now…..
“Two weeks before the 2020 general election, on October 21, 2020, Donald Trump issued an executive order (E.O. 13957) on “Creating Schedule F in the Excepted Service.””
“The gradual rise of this 4th branch of government – which is very much the most powerful branch – has reduced the American political process to mere theater as compared with the real activity of government, which rests with the permanent bureaucracy.
Any new president can hire the heads of agencies and they can hire staff, which are known as political appointees.
These 4,000 political appointees ostensibly rule 432 agencies (as listed by the Federal Register) as well as some 2.9 million employees (aside from the military and postal service) that effectively inhibit permanent jobs.
This permanent state – sometimes called the deep state – knows the ropes and the processes of government far better than any temporary political appointee, thus reducing the appointed jobs to cosmetic positions for the press to hound while the real actions of government take place behind the scenes.”
?https://brownstone.org/articles/the-asto...chedule-f/"
https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37026
(07-05-2022, 12:35 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 12:24 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]If it's so obvious, why don't you take a minute to explain it?
We take it as a given that the government is somewhat corrupt, but, your thesis is that Trump exposed this, and worked against it, in such a uniquely effective way that we need him to come back. Can you give an example?
Somewhat corrupt? I feel like we all had this conversation already. First things first, we have a bunch of UNELECTED career bureaucrats running everything. Let's start there.
"“The Deep State”, aptly and dubiously dubbed by the Master troll always had an abstract meaning for me. Ya, I knew non elected officials were the ones running the government, but really wasn’t clear on what exactly that meant. I do now…..
“Two weeks before the 2020 general election, on October 21, 2020, Donald Trump issued an executive order (E.O. 13957) on “Creating Schedule F in the Excepted Service.””
“The gradual rise of this 4th branch of government – which is very much the most powerful branch – has reduced the American political process to mere theater as compared with the real activity of government, which rests with the permanent bureaucracy.
Any new president can hire the heads of agencies and they can hire staff, which are known as political appointees.
These 4,000 political appointees ostensibly rule 432 agencies (as listed by the Federal Register) as well as some 2.9 million employees (aside from the military and postal service) that effectively inhibit permanent jobs.
This permanent state – sometimes called the deep state – knows the ropes and the processes of government far better than any temporary political appointee, thus reducing the appointed jobs to cosmetic positions for the press to hound while the real actions of government take place behind the scenes.”
?https://brownstone.org/articles/the-asto...chedule-f/"
https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37026
We already covered this. Trump's "Schedule F" would turn millions of federal employees into political appointees, which would lead to corruption on a vast scale.
(07-05-2022, 12:39 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 12:35 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ]Somewhat corrupt? I feel like we all had this conversation already. First things first, we have a bunch of UNELECTED career bureaucrats running everything. Let's start there.
"“The Deep State”, aptly and dubiously dubbed by the Master troll always had an abstract meaning for me. Ya, I knew non elected officials were the ones running the government, but really wasn’t clear on what exactly that meant. I do now…..
“Two weeks before the 2020 general election, on October 21, 2020, Donald Trump issued an executive order (E.O. 13957) on “Creating Schedule F in the Excepted Service.””
“The gradual rise of this 4th branch of government – which is very much the most powerful branch – has reduced the American political process to mere theater as compared with the real activity of government, which rests with the permanent bureaucracy.
Any new president can hire the heads of agencies and they can hire staff, which are known as political appointees.
These 4,000 political appointees ostensibly rule 432 agencies (as listed by the Federal Register) as well as some 2.9 million employees (aside from the military and postal service) that effectively inhibit permanent jobs.
This permanent state – sometimes called the deep state – knows the ropes and the processes of government far better than any temporary political appointee, thus reducing the appointed jobs to cosmetic positions for the press to hound while the real actions of government take place behind the scenes.”
?https://brownstone.org/articles/the-asto...chedule-f/"
https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37026
We already covered this. Trump's "Schedule F" would turn millions of federal employees into political appointees, which would lead to corruption on a vast scale.
Not if they fire 90% of them.
(07-05-2022, 12:35 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 12:24 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]If it's so obvious, why don't you take a minute to explain it?
We take it as a given that the government is somewhat corrupt, but, your thesis is that Trump exposed this, and worked against it, in such a uniquely effective way that we need him to come back. Can you give an example?
Somewhat corrupt? I feel like we all had this conversation already. First things first, we have a bunch of UNELECTED career bureaucrats running everything. Let's start there.
"“The Deep State”, aptly and dubiously dubbed by the Master troll always had an abstract meaning for me. Ya, I knew non elected officials were the ones running the government, but really wasn’t clear on what exactly that meant. I do now…..
“Two weeks before the 2020 general election, on October 21, 2020, Donald Trump issued an executive order (E.O. 13957) on “Creating Schedule F in the Excepted Service.””
“The gradual rise of this 4th branch of government – which is very much the most powerful branch – has reduced the American political process to mere theater as compared with the real activity of government, which rests with the permanent bureaucracy.
Any new president can hire the heads of agencies and they can hire staff, which are known as political appointees.
These 4,000 political appointees ostensibly rule 432 agencies (as listed by the Federal Register) as well as some 2.9 million employees (aside from the military and postal service) that effectively inhibit permanent jobs.
This permanent state – sometimes called the deep state – knows the ropes and the processes of government far better than any temporary political appointee, thus reducing the appointed jobs to cosmetic positions for the press to hound while the real actions of government take place behind the scenes.”
?https://brownstone.org/articles/the-asto...chedule-f/"
https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37026
I agree with Marty, and I would add, the political appointees selected by the President are only supposed to have minor discretion as to how their departments are run. The Law is the ultimate authority for how they do their jobs, i.e., if you want something big to change, it takes an act of Congress.
We wouldn't be having this type of conversation if Congress would just work through their disagreements and do their job.
These things are working as designed, it's just, the designer has barely checked in at all for the last 30 or 40 years. What you've cited isn't corruption, it's dysfunction.
(07-05-2022, 11:50 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 06:02 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think Trump was more effective than Biden because Trump was a Republican, and, in general, Republican policies are more effective than Democrat policies. But I think almost any other Republican would have been more effective than Trump.
But if anyone cannot see by now why Trump should never be President, there's no amount of persuading that will work, so I'll leave it at that.
Trump is reverse Batman, bro. He's not the hero we deserve, but he's the hero we need. Until the establishment is brought to heel, we need somebody that will stand against it, if for no other reason than to bring to light the ways they are exploiting us. I would happily take a refined version of that, but I'm not sure that will expose the corruption effectively. I think DeSantis might have a chance, but even though he does a good job of political maneuvering, I question whether he has the guts to actually clean up DC.
Sometimes you say things much better than I do. This is one of those times. As for cleaning up DC, a lone wolf can't do it. Trump exposed them but that's about it.
DeSantis is not as openly ballsy as Trump but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's what they do quietly or behind the scenes that makes them more effective. If he runs for and wins POTUS, unless or until he can get a group of solid Republicans behind him who are as committed as he might be (we don't know that would be his goal) to clean out the sewage, and do it smartly, DC will keep on as always. Trump wasn't smart about it by any stretch of the imagination. If he had been he would still be in office. But then he wouldn't be Trump so....
There are just way too many of them who would be threatened by any real clean up effort to let it happen. Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, whatever. Not to mention lobbyists, special interest groups and corporations.
(07-05-2022, 02:12 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 11:50 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Trump is reverse Batman, bro. He's not the hero we deserve, but he's the hero we need. Until the establishment is brought to heel, we need somebody that will stand against it, if for no other reason than to bring to light the ways they are exploiting us. I would happily take a refined version of that, but I'm not sure that will expose the corruption effectively. I think DeSantis might have a chance, but even though he does a good job of political maneuvering, I question whether he has the guts to actually clean up DC.
Sometimes you say things much better than I do. This is one of those times. As for cleaning up DC, a lone wolf can't do it. Trump exposed them but that's about it.
DeSantis is not as openly ballsy as Trump but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's what they do quietly or behind the scenes that makes them more effective. If he runs for and wins POTUS, unless or until he can get a group of solid Republicans behind him who are as committed as he might be (we don't know that would be his goal) to clean out the sewage, and do it smartly, DC will keep on as always. Trump wasn't smart about it by any stretch of the imagination. If he had been he would still be in office. But then he wouldn't be Trump so....
There are just way too many of them who would be threatened by any real clean up effort to let it happen. Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, whatever. Not to mention lobbyists, special interest groups and corporations.
To the first bolded sentence, that is a great point. To the second, I seriously don't think enough people understand that this is the problem in DC. The politicians just follow the money. Same with the science. Cleaning up DC means separating the politicians from the corporations, and it's going to be hard because we can't see who's who.
(07-05-2022, 07:56 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 02:12 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes you say things much better than I do. This is one of those times. As for cleaning up DC, a lone wolf can't do it. Trump exposed them but that's about it.
DeSantis is not as openly ballsy as Trump but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's what they do quietly or behind the scenes that makes them more effective. If he runs for and wins POTUS, unless or until he can get a group of solid Republicans behind him who are as committed as he might be (we don't know that would be his goal) to clean out the sewage, and do it smartly, DC will keep on as always. Trump wasn't smart about it by any stretch of the imagination. If he had been he would still be in office. But then he wouldn't be Trump so....
There are just way too many of them who would be threatened by any real clean up effort to let it happen. Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, whatever. Not to mention lobbyists, special interest groups and corporations.
To the first bolded sentence, that is a great point. To the second, I seriously don't think enough people understand that this is the problem in DC. The politicians just follow the money. Same with the science. Cleaning up DC means separating the politicians from the corporations, and it's going to be hard because we can't see who's who.
There have always been corporations, corporations have always hired lobbyists, and there have always been special interest groups. None of these things are bigger or badder than they were before.
Being a politician will always be a privileged profession and privileged people will always pay generously for a modicum of attention from a politician. Do you think Trump was somehow immune from this? Who did he hire as Secretary of Education and why?
You're literally never going to get money out of politics. No country ever has. That doesn't mean the ones with the most money win, it just means you need a certain amount of money to play. It was ever thus.
(07-05-2022, 07:56 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 02:12 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes you say things much better than I do. This is one of those times. As for cleaning up DC, a lone wolf can't do it. Trump exposed them but that's about it.
DeSantis is not as openly ballsy as Trump but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's what they do quietly or behind the scenes that makes them more effective. If he runs for and wins POTUS, unless or until he can get a group of solid Republicans behind him who are as committed as he might be (we don't know that would be his goal) to clean out the sewage, and do it smartly, DC will keep on as always. Trump wasn't smart about it by any stretch of the imagination. If he had been he would still be in office. But then he wouldn't be Trump so....
There are just way too many of them who would be threatened by any real clean up effort to let it happen. Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, whatever. Not to mention lobbyists, special interest groups and corporations.
To the first bolded sentence, that is a great point. To the second, I seriously don't think enough people understand that this is the problem in DC. The politicians just follow the money. Same with the science. Cleaning up DC means separating the politicians from the corporations, and it's going to be hard because we can't see who's who.
I've always considered the election more of a Trump loss, than a Biden victory. His arrogance alienated too many voters who couldn't mentally separate his agenda from his personality.
I think the first step to cleaning up DC is term limits. The power of the position is addictive, too many get there and never want to leave. The longer they're there, the more tightly they become tied to the money.
Term limits won't solve anything until the average American gets to realistically pick their representatives. Term limits are only going to bring on wave after wave of corporate interest puppets. We have to get big money out of politics.
I disagree with you on the loss. Even if we accept your premise that Trump was arrogant (which I agree with), there was too much against him. It would have been nearly impossible to get better results than he did in that election.
(07-11-2022, 07:28 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (07-05-2022, 07:56 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]To the first bolded sentence, that is a great point. To the second, I seriously don't think enough people understand that this is the problem in DC. The politicians just follow the money. Same with the science. Cleaning up DC means separating the politicians from the corporations, and it's going to be hard because we can't see who's who.
I've always considered the election more of a Trump loss, than a Biden victory. His arrogance alienated too many voters who couldn't mentally separate his agenda from his personality.
I think the first step to cleaning up DC is term limits. The power of the position is addictive, too many get there and never want to leave. The longer they're there, the more tightly they become tied to the money.
Term limits require a Constitutional amendment. I used to oppose the idea, but im starting to see the benefits.
If we could make it so 1/4 to 1/2 of all members of Congress at any given time weren't worried about getting re-elected, it might really improve things. But Congress itself will never do it, unless the states are on the cusp of organizing an article 5 convention (as happened with the 17th amendment)
The best part is it might kick off a necessary conversation about which other amendments would be beneficial.
But no one can ever get money out of politics.
(07-11-2022, 07:35 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2022, 07:28 AM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]I've always considered the election more of a Trump loss, than a Biden victory. His arrogance alienated too many voters who couldn't mentally separate his agenda from his personality.
I think the first step to cleaning up DC is term limits. The power of the position is addictive, too many get there and never want to leave. The longer they're there, the more tightly they become tied to the money.
Term limits require a Constitutional amendment. I used to oppose the idea, but im starting to see the benefits.
If we could make it so 1/4 to 1/2 of all members of Congress at any given time weren't worried about getting re-elected, it might really improve things. But Congress itself will never do it, unless the states are on the cusp of organizing an article 5 convention (as happened with the 17th amendment)
The best part is it might kick off a necessary conversation about which other amendments would be beneficial.
But no one can ever get money out of politics.
In general, I agree that term limits would be a good thing.
But about the part in bold- could you imagine a scenario where that might backfire?