(08-15-2022, 03:33 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Considering race in decision making is not inherently racist. Read the article carefully. The policy speaks of some races being under-represented. That race could be white, or black, or any other category. At this time whites are over-represented, but in time that could change and then the same policy would favor white people.
Wrong! Considering ANYTHING other than a candidate's qualifications is discriminatory in some way, be it race, gender, age, religious beliefs, etc.
If you have a significant number of minority students, it will behoove you to make race one of the qualifications for the candidates. Not mandatory, of course, but as a preference. Just like you would prefer to have a teacher who grew up in the same area, speaking the same language. That's what the research says. You would want to do that until the racial demographics of your teachers is similar to the racial demographics of your students.
(08-15-2022, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 02:02 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Then seniority protocols don’t apply because of race. That’s racist.
Considering race in decision making is not inherently racist. Read the article carefully. The policy speaks of some races being under-represented. That race could be white, or black, or any other category. At this time whites are over-represented, but in time that could change and then the same policy would favor white people.
So let’s put this scenario out there: A minority teacher teaching in a mostly white school is RIF’d. Does she go so a white teacher with less seniority can stay because she represents the greatest amount of students? After all, it’s about the children, correct?
(08-15-2022, 03:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 03:33 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ]Wrong! Considering ANYTHING other than a candidate's qualifications is discriminatory in some way, be it race, gender, age, religious beliefs, etc.
If you have a significant number of minority students, it will behoove you to make race one of the qualifications for the candidates. Not mandatory, of course, but as a preference. Just like you would prefer to have a teacher who grew up in the same area, speaking the same language. That's what the research says.
What research?
(08-15-2022, 03:54 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Considering race in decision making is not inherently racist. Read the article carefully. The policy speaks of some races being under-represented. That race could be white, or black, or any other category. At this time whites are over-represented, but in time that could change and then the same policy would favor white people.
So let’s put this scenario out there: A minority teacher teaching in a mostly white school is RIF’d. Does she go so a white teacher with less seniority can stay because she represents the greatest amount of students? After all, it’s about the children, correct?
(08-15-2022, 03:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]If you have a significant number of minority students, it will behoove you to make race one of the qualifications for the candidates. Not mandatory, of course, but as a preference. Just like you would prefer to have a teacher who grew up in the same area, speaking the same language. That's what the research says.
What research?
1) under this policy, yes.
2) Dammit Jim, I'm not a librarian!
(08-15-2022, 03:54 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Considering race in decision making is not inherently racist. Read the article carefully. The policy speaks of some races being under-represented. That race could be white, or black, or any other category. At this time whites are over-represented, but in time that could change and then the same policy would favor white people.
So let’s put this scenario out there: A minority teacher teaching in a mostly white school is RIF’d. Does she go so a white teacher with less seniority can stay because she represents the greatest amount of students? After all, it’s about the children, correct?
(08-15-2022, 03:48 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]If you have a significant number of minority students, it will behoove you to make race one of the qualifications for the candidates. Not mandatory, of course, but as a preference. Just like you would prefer to have a teacher who grew up in the same area, speaking the same language. That's what the research says.
What research?
It's a confidentiality thing, he never reveals his source.
(08-15-2022, 08:38 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 03:54 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]So let’s put this scenario out there: A minority teacher teaching in a mostly white school is RIF’d. Does she go so a white teacher with less seniority can stay because she represents the greatest amount of students? After all, it’s about the children, correct?
What research?
1) under this policy, yes.
2) Dammit Jim, I'm not a librarian!
Then don't say stuff as if it's fact if you can't back it up.
I truly don't get the whole identity thing. The best person qualified across the board is who I would want to teach me. Black, white, brown..... I don't care.
(08-16-2022, 12:18 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 08:38 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]1) under this policy, yes.
2) Dammit Jim, I'm not a librarian!
Then don't say stuff as if it's fact if you can't back it up.
I truly don't get the whole identity thing. The best person qualified across the board is who I would want to teach me. Black, white, brown..... I don't care.
One of MANY articles that comes up from a simple Google search:
https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/11/12/black-stu...llege-gap/
(08-16-2022, 09:02 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 12:18 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Then don't say stuff as if it's fact if you can't back it up.
I truly don't get the whole identity thing. The best person qualified across the board is who I would want to teach me. Black, white, brown..... I don't care.
One of MANY articles that comes up from a simple Google search: https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/11/12/black-stu...llege-gap/
Then why didn’t you post it in the first place when it was your obligation to do so?
Don’t attempt to turn your laziness into a lecture.
(08-16-2022, 09:44 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 09:02 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]One of MANY articles that comes up from a simple Google search: https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/11/12/black-stu...llege-gap/
Then why didn’t you post it in the first place when it was your obligation to do so?
Don’t attempt to turn your laziness into a lecture.
Whatever. This is easily searchable. Other posters here routinely refer to events and assumptions that are much more obscure. Are you going to deal with the facts presented, or are you going to continue to make this personal?
(08-16-2022, 10:21 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 09:44 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Then why didn’t you post it in the first place when it was your obligation to do so?
Don’t attempt to turn your laziness into a lecture.
Whatever. This is easily searchable. Other posters here routinely refer to events and assumptions that are much more obscure. Are you going to deal with the facts presented, or are you going to continue to make this personal?
You’re right. Here’s the facts: This policy is racist and your failure to provide attribution was lazy.
(08-16-2022, 10:37 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:21 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever. This is easily searchable. Other posters here routinely refer to events and assumptions that are much more obscure. Are you going to deal with the facts presented, or are you going to continue to make this personal?
You’re right. Here’s the facts: This policy is racist and your failure to provide attribution was lazy.
It's funny how selective people are in what they will call out as racism.
I'm white. When I was in the market for my first home, I didn't yet have much money for a down payment, and above all I wanted to be close to the interstate. I asked a guy from church to be my realtor, and as he was showing me an available house, he said, "I don't want you to get too excited about this place." "Why not?" "I don't see it as a good fit for you. My wife teaches public school in this area. Some discipline problems." "What does that have to do with me?" "I'm sorry, to say more would be breaking the law."
Turns out this neighborhood had a high number of black people, not a majority, but more than average. Later he helped a black family we both knew move to a home in the same area. I'm sure he had many other similar dealings with families I didn't know. This casual housing discrimination is super common. But it's never called out. Instead we call out this other stuff because it breaks more cleanly on the blue/red battle lines we've drawn. Which has a bigger effect on a kid's upbringing - the neighborhood they grow up in, or one of the six teachers they will have in elementary school? Define racism however you want, but do we really have our priorities in order here?
And don't take it personally. The White people on the blue team also don't really want to discuss housing discrimination.
(08-16-2022, 10:49 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:37 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]You’re right. Here’s the facts: This policy is racist and your failure to provide attribution was lazy.
It's funny how selective people are in what they will call out as racism.
I'm white. When I was in the market for my first home, I didn't yet have much money for a down payment, and above all I wanted to be close to the interstate. I asked a guy from church to be my realtor, and as he was showing me an available house, he said, "I don't want you to get too excited about this place." "Why not?" "I don't see it as a good fit for you. My wife teaches public school in this area. Some discipline problems." "What does that have to do with me?" "I'm sorry, to say more would be breaking the law."
Turns out this neighborhood had a high number of black people, not a majority, but more than average. Later he helped a black family we both knew move to a home in the same area. I'm sure he had many other similar dealings with families I didn't know. This casual housing discrimination is super common. But it's never called out. Instead we call out this other stuff because it breaks more cleanly on the blue/red battle lines we've drawn. Which has a bigger effect on a kid's upbringing - the neighborhood they grow up in, or one of the six teachers they will have in elementary school? Define racism however you want, but do we really have our priorities in order here?
And don't take it personally. The White people on the blue team also don't really want to discuss housing discrimination.
Did you buy the house in the predominantly black neighborhood?
(08-16-2022, 10:49 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:37 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]You’re right. Here’s the facts: This policy is racist and your failure to provide attribution was lazy.
It's funny how selective people are in what they will call out as racism.
I'm white. When I was in the market for my first home, I didn't yet have much money for a down payment, and above all I wanted to be close to the interstate. I asked a guy from church to be my realtor, and as he was showing me an available house, he said, "I don't want you to get too excited about this place." "Why not?" "I don't see it as a good fit for you. My wife teaches public school in this area. Some discipline problems." "What does that have to do with me?" "I'm sorry, to say more would be breaking the law."
Turns out this neighborhood had a high number of black people, not a majority, but more than average. Later he helped a black family we both knew move to a home in the same area. I'm sure he had many other similar dealings with families I didn't know. This casual housing discrimination is super common. But it's never called out. Instead we call out this other stuff because it breaks more cleanly on the blue/red battle lines we've drawn. Which has a bigger effect on a kid's upbringing - the neighborhood they grow up in, or one of the six teachers they will have in elementary school? Define racism however you want, but do we really have our priorities in order here?
It's not racist to want to feel safe in your home at night, and not have to worry about your car being stolen/vandalized if you don't have a garage to park it in. In a perfect world, sure you can go live in those neighborhoods. We've had a good number of black families move to our neighborhood recently, and to a family they have told me it was to escape crime and bad influences on thier kids. I have two tenants at my rental properties that are doing the same, both Hispanic families. I keep the rent 40 to 50% lower than market for this very reason; so they can escape those hell holes. There's nothing to 'call out'. It's not racist to want to live in safety. How about we call out the people who are making poor neighborhoods unsafe? Are the people in those neighborhoods incapable of being law abiding citizens?
(08-16-2022, 10:57 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:49 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny how selective people are in what they will call out as racism.
I'm white. When I was in the market for my first home, I didn't yet have much money for a down payment, and above all I wanted to be close to the interstate. I asked a guy from church to be my realtor, and as he was showing me an available house, he said, "I don't want you to get too excited about this place." "Why not?" "I don't see it as a good fit for you. My wife teaches public school in this area. Some discipline problems." "What does that have to do with me?" "I'm sorry, to say more would be breaking the law."
Turns out this neighborhood had a high number of black people, not a majority, but more than average. Later he helped a black family we both knew move to a home in the same area. I'm sure he had many other similar dealings with families I didn't know. This casual housing discrimination is super common. But it's never called out. Instead we call out this other stuff because it breaks more cleanly on the blue/red battle lines we've drawn. Which has a bigger effect on a kid's upbringing - the neighborhood they grow up in, or one of the six teachers they will have in elementary school? Define racism however you want, but do we really have our priorities in order here?
And don't take it personally. The White people on the blue team also don't really want to discuss housing discrimination.
Did you buy the house in the predominantly black neighborhood?
It wasn't predominantly black, it was morenlike 30 or 40% black. And the houses were all new and well maintained. My wife ended up getting a job offer much closer to my job at the time, and living near the interstate was no longer important.
FWIW I live next to a predominantly Mexican area now. Doesn't bother me.
(08-16-2022, 10:58 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:49 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny how selective people are in what they will call out as racism.
I'm white. When I was in the market for my first home, I didn't yet have much money for a down payment, and above all I wanted to be close to the interstate. I asked a guy from church to be my realtor, and as he was showing me an available house, he said, "I don't want you to get too excited about this place." "Why not?" "I don't see it as a good fit for you. My wife teaches public school in this area. Some discipline problems." "What does that have to do with me?" "I'm sorry, to say more would be breaking the law."
Turns out this neighborhood had a high number of black people, not a majority, but more than average. Later he helped a black family we both knew move to a home in the same area. I'm sure he had many other similar dealings with families I didn't know. This casual housing discrimination is super common. But it's never called out. Instead we call out this other stuff because it breaks more cleanly on the blue/red battle lines we've drawn. Which has a bigger effect on a kid's upbringing - the neighborhood they grow up in, or one of the six teachers they will have in elementary school? Define racism however you want, but do we really have our priorities in order here?
It's not racist to want to feel safe in your home at night, and not have to worry about your car being stolen/vandalized if you don't have a garage to park it in. In a perfect world, sure you can go live in those neighborhoods. We've had a good number of black families move to our neighborhood recently, and to a family they have told me it was to escape crime and bad influences on thier kids. I have two tenants at my rental properties that are doing the same, both Hispanic families. I keep the rent 40 to 50% lower than market for this very reason; so they can escape those hell holes. There's nothing to 'call out'. It's not racist to want to live in safety. How about we call out the people who are making poor neighborhoods unsafe? Are the people in those neighborhoods unable to be law abiding citizens?
It sounds like you are working against racism in your area, so thank you for that. You should be aware that many landlords steer black and Hispanic people to rundown and high crime properties while steering white prospects to lower crime properties. If you're not doing that, great, but many do, and realtors too.
While violent crime like stabbings and shootings tends to accumulate in low income areas with gangs, the petty crime like breaking into cars is highly mobile. I'm around 40 years old and I've parked overnight in many different neighborhoods. The two times I've had my car broken into were both in higher end areas. The cops in both cases said there was a wave of breakins attributed to teenagers living a few miles away, not neighbors.
(08-16-2022, 09:02 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 12:18 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Then don't say stuff as if it's fact if you can't back it up.
I truly don't get the whole identity thing. The best person qualified across the board is who I would want to teach me. Black, white, brown..... I don't care.
One of MANY articles that comes up from a simple Google search: https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/11/12/black-stu...llege-gap/
Something I’m curious of is if a similar study was done for white students, and if so, does the study intimate the result is rooted in inherent racism.
(08-16-2022, 11:02 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 10:57 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Did you buy the house in the predominantly black neighborhood?
It wasn't predominantly black, it was morenlike 30 or 40% black. And the houses were all new and well maintained. My wife ended up getting a job offer much closer to my job at the time, and living near the interstate was no longer important.
FWIW I live next to a predominantly Mexican area now. Doesn't bother me.
(08-16-2022, 10:58 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ]It's not racist to want to feel safe in your home at night, and not have to worry about your car being stolen/vandalized if you don't have a garage to park it in. In a perfect world, sure you can go live in those neighborhoods. We've had a good number of black families move to our neighborhood recently, and to a family they have told me it was to escape crime and bad influences on thier kids. I have two tenants at my rental properties that are doing the same, both Hispanic families. I keep the rent 40 to 50% lower than market for this very reason; so they can escape those hell holes. There's nothing to 'call out'. It's not racist to want to live in safety. How about we call out the people who are making poor neighborhoods unsafe? Are the people in those neighborhoods unable to be law abiding citizens?
It sounds like you are working against racism in your area, so thank you for that. You should be aware that many landlords steer black and Hispanic people to rundown and high crime properties while steering white prospects to lower crime properties. If you're not doing that, great, but many do, and realtors too.
While violent crime like stabbings and shootings tends to accumulate in low income areas with gangs, the petty crime like breaking into cars is highly mobile. I'm around 40 years old and I've parked overnight in many different neighborhoods. The two times I've had my car broken into were both in higher end areas. The cops in both cases said there was a wave of breakins attributed to teenagers living a few miles away, not neighbors.
I'm not 'working against racism'. For me, as a 1st generation immigrant, it's about helping families who came to this country wanting to build better lives for themselves; who want a hand up and not a handout. People who are grateful for the chances this country affords, instead of complaining about how this country hates them, spitting in the face of all the opportunities it provides them, while at the same time happy to take whatever that same country will give them for free. Race has nothing to do with it. If these people were lazy grifters who were mishandling the property or terrorizing the neighborhood, then I would look for other tenants. And if that ever happens, I will.
Nobody wants to live in a high crime neighborhood. Also, saying that black kids need only black teachers is extremely racist.
(08-16-2022, 11:47 AM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody wants to live in a high crime neighborhood. Also, saying that black kids need only black teachers is extremely racist.
Good thing that's not what I said.
I said that it's desirable (but not needed) that a black kid has at least one black teacher during their elementary school years. Reading comprehension is very low around here.
(08-16-2022, 11:41 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 11:02 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It wasn't predominantly black, it was morenlike 30 or 40% black. And the houses were all new and well maintained. My wife ended up getting a job offer much closer to my job at the time, and living near the interstate was no longer important.
FWIW I live next to a predominantly Mexican area now. Doesn't bother me.
It sounds like you are working against racism in your area, so thank you for that. You should be aware that many landlords steer black and Hispanic people to rundown and high crime properties while steering white prospects to lower crime properties. If you're not doing that, great, but many do, and realtors too.
While violent crime like stabbings and shootings tends to accumulate in low income areas with gangs, the petty crime like breaking into cars is highly mobile. I'm around 40 years old and I've parked overnight in many different neighborhoods. The two times I've had my car broken into were both in higher end areas. The cops in both cases said there was a wave of breakins attributed to teenagers living a few miles away, not neighbors.
I'm not 'working against racism'. For me, as a 1st generation immigrant, it's about helping families who came to this country wanting to build better lives for themselves; who want a hand up and not a handout. Not complaining about how this country hates them, while at the same time spitting in the face of all the opportunities it provides them, but happy to take whatever that same country will give them for free. Race has nothing to do with it. If these people were lazy grifters who were mishandling the property or terrorizing the neighborhood, then I would look for other tenants. And if that ever happens, I will.
I understand what you are saying. You are doing your best to simply ignore race in your dealings. Which is certainly better than working against disadvantaged races. But what do you think other landlords and realtors are doing? Do you think all of them are being as race blind as you? Of course not. So add it up. If some rental housing is owned by racist landlords, and some rental housing is owned by non-racist landlords, what kind of society does that add up to? A slightly less racist, but still racist society. We need anti-racists to combat the racists if we want the sum of it to go to zero. That doesn't have to be you, but it could be you.
(08-15-2022, 03:33 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (08-15-2022, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Considering race in decision making is not inherently racist. Read the article carefully. The policy speaks of some races being under-represented. That race could be white, or black, or any other category. At this time whites are over-represented, but in time that could change and then the same policy would favor white people.
Wrong! Considering ANYTHING other than a candidate's qualifications is discriminatory in some way, be it race, gender, age, religious beliefs, etc.
It is discriminatory but it's not racist.
(08-16-2022, 11:47 AM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody wants to live in a high crime neighborhood. Also, saying that black kids need only black teachers is extremely racist.
I think saying that black students do better with black teachers is simply admitting to the racism of the students.
(08-16-2022, 12:06 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (08-16-2022, 11:47 AM)Talented Kalamari Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody wants to live in a high crime neighborhood. Also, saying that black kids need only black teachers is extremely racist.
Good thing that's not what I said.
I said that it's desirable (but not needed) that a black kid has at least one black teacher during their elementary school years. Reading comprehension is very low around here.
(08-16-2022, 11:41 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not 'working against racism'. For me, as a 1st generation immigrant, it's about helping families who came to this country wanting to build better lives for themselves; who want a hand up and not a handout. Not complaining about how this country hates them, while at the same time spitting in the face of all the opportunities it provides them, but happy to take whatever that same country will give them for free. Race has nothing to do with it. If these people were lazy grifters who were mishandling the property or terrorizing the neighborhood, then I would look for other tenants. And if that ever happens, I will.
I understand what you are saying. You are doing your best to simply ignore race in your dealings. Which is certainly better than working against disadvantaged races. But what do you think other landlords and realtors are doing? Do you think all of them are being as race blind as you? Of course not. So add it up. If some rental housing is owned by racist landlords, and some rental housing is owned by non-racist landlords, what kind of society does that add up to? A slightly less racist, but still racist society. We need anti-racists to combat the racists if we want the sum of it to go to zero. That doesn't have to be you, but it could be you.
I hear you. But some of that 'steering' of people to poorer areas might just be a function of how much they are able to pay. It might look racist, but it's really economics. I wouldn't necessarily brand a landlord a racist just because he wants to maximize his profit. Now, if there are two potential tenants, each with equal ability to rent a particular property, with an equally sound credit rating and good tenant record, and the landlord chooses the non-minority arbitrarily, then that could be racism.