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Only the Bills oline was worse out of the tip 10 offenses. The 2 best offensive lines are in the SB. You win in the trenches

I think I only got around to posting 4 games worth of examples when I started this thread.

Might get 2 more games in today:

Week 14

Here's a wide zone run play wherein Shatley steps left to Cam's outside and should seal. Clearly he's a step and a half too slow.
I t does look like the defender read this play well from the get go.
The TE was clearly eyeing the strong side ILB the whole way - so this guy looks like he was Shatley's responsibility, unless Engram really screwed up. 





OK, this is left tackle again, not IOL, but I'll include it for posterity as the Robinson situation will be a topic moving forward whether he's traded this offseason (doubtful) of released next year. 

Yeah, Cam gets beat way too much for his contract. Little needs to be the future and present a LT. It should at least be an open competition between him and Little in Camp and the loser goes to LG or RT.

This clip is an incomplete pass where Scherff's guy gets through.
Fortner, who was left without a block to make, was too little too late to assist.

Not a major fail here. Trevor has time to set his feet and throw, but you wonder if the pressure affected his accuracy from the hash to the sideline. 

It's 2.6 seconds to release form snap, so again, not a big gripe here. Just illustrating things that can be better.

If anything - I think this shows a good example of Scherff's core strength suffering from injury. 

Shatley and Fortner here:

(02-12-2023, 11:37 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Shatley and Fortner here:

So what is your conclusion here?  I don't necessarily disagree that we should upgrade our offensive line, but showing a few bad plays doesn't prove that point.  Occasionally, the defensive linemen do win.   They get paid, too.

I'm in no way an expert on o-line play and would never claim to be. 

But the plays that really worry me are the one or two every week or so where Robinson plays patty-cake with fresh air as his man goes through at full speed unblocked. The second video NYC has posted there being an excellent example. (And thanks for taking the time to put these together)

I might not like it, but I can understand lineman having bad games here and there, or having plays where they miss the stunt, get beat for a power or skill move, misjudge footwork or armwork, or the defensive lineman beats them for skill, these are the best de\dl in the world, you have to admit at times they're entitled to win ... But get something on them, slow them up etc... Giving away a sack or pressure is workable,... going through untouched and at speed (especially on Lawrence's blindside) is gonna be a very quick recipe for an injured qb. 

I may be wrong but I think it was a similar play which looked genuinely horrible against (possibly the titans?) I'm still not sure how he got away with it.

(02-12-2023, 12:10 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2023, 11:37 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Shatley and Fortner here:

So what is your conclusion here?  I don't necessarily disagree that we should upgrade our offensive line, but showing a few bad plays doesn't prove that point.  Occasionally, the defensive linemen do win.   They get paid, too.

I agree.  I think we should upgrade offensive line too, but don't see what these clips prove.  Fortner took over 1,100 offensive snaps last year.  If you include special teams, it's almost 1,200.  NYC has shown around 20 plays here.  Even if he expands it to 100, that still means he isn't showing us over 90% of his plays.  I think you could make Trevor Lawrence or virtually any other player look bad if you selectively pick out their worst plays.

(02-12-2023, 12:10 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2023, 11:37 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Shatley and Fortner here:

So what is your conclusion here?  I don't necessarily disagree that we should upgrade our offensive line, but showing a few bad plays doesn't prove that point.  Occasionally, the defensive linemen do win.   They get paid, too.

Well, I'm not even halfway through the fifth game of posting "a few bad plays" out of seventeen games. 
So... judge away I guess. 

If you're asking about this play you've quoted in particular, my conclusion is that your LG and C should never, under any circumstance lose when blocking one player in tandem in under 1.6 seconds. That's terrible. 

If you want general conclusions about what I'm seeing from this OL while reviewing these games in all22 and all of the stats associated with them:

• Our QB got hit 36 times last year. More than a third of those appeared wholly unnecessary and strictly due to poor line play and one of them nearly ended his season before we could complete our run to the postseason. 
  
• Our QB was the fourth most hurried QB in the league 
  
• 2.5 seconds is the accepted benchmark for pocket time before release for quality QBs - Trevor is getting it out in 2.2 because he doesn't have a choice on the majority of snaps - he's under pressure well before that time elapses far too often
  
• Our ability to throw deep would have a major uptick if that number went to 2.5 or 2.6  seconds - we rarely even try to do so with our current situation - 21 teams attempted 30 yard passes or greater more often than the Jags last year
  
• Trevor not only rarely has the benchmark of 2.5 seconds to work with, he rarely has a pocket to work within, often forced to move laterally or he's unable to step into a throw without contact with his own lineman or a defender
  
• 27 Quarterbacks in the NFL with 8 or more starts in 2022 experienced more pocket time than Trevor Lawrence. 
  
• What do you think he'd accomplish with league average pocket time compared to what he's getting? 
  

My conclusions are basic and obvious. 
The interior line is not good enough. (neither is Robinson, but that's another thread) 

Not adding competition to compete with Bartch, Fortner and Scherff would be a big mistake. 
Scherff may come around when healthy.
Fortner may get stronger and quicker to read defensive stunts.
Bartch may come back from injury and play significantly better than Shatley did.

Personally - I think we are squandering great opportunity if we just sit back and roll the dice on those things working out well. 

We are also risking the health of the most important piece of the puzzle that represents our current window of repeated postseason opportunity.

I want to protect the kid, and I want him to have a fair shot of reaching his potential. 
Simple.

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(02-12-2023, 01:54 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2023, 12:10 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]So what is your conclusion here?  I don't necessarily disagree that we should upgrade our offensive line, but showing a few bad plays doesn't prove that point.  Occasionally, the defensive linemen do win.   They get paid, too.

I agree.  I think we should upgrade offensive line too, but don't see what these clips prove.  Fortner took over 1,100 offensive snaps last year.  If you include special teams, it's almost 1,200.  NYC has shown around 20 plays here.  Even if he expands it to 100, that still means he isn't showing us over 90% of his plays.  I think you could make Trevor Lawrence or virtually any other player look bad if you selectively pick out their worst plays.

I'm not even halfway through the fifth game of tape

Sorry - I don't have all day to sit around grabbing clips from the all22 
I do a little bit here and there when I find time

If you watched every Jags game you shount even need these clips to know our interior oline is a weak point on this team. Hopefully Fortner improves being he was a rookie and hopefully Scherff gets back to his oldself. LG isn't on the roster

Here's one with Cam and Shatley getting beat 

I am one of the people that preach fixing the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball before worrying about the glory positions. The OLine does need work there is no doubt about that. But trying to replace a rookie C, that overall played better than average and a G that has been one of the best in the league for years and will have a huge $$ tag that you can't get rid of??? That's just A-nine. From all accounts before and during the season, the C has all the brain power to make the calls, he just needs to get in the weight room, which I am pretty sure he will. The G will be fine, quit freaking out. My $$ says let JT walk, use WL, and use that $$ elsewhere. Then draft someone to be the swing T and other position competition.

(02-14-2023, 12:57 AM)JagswinJagswin Wrote: [ -> ]I am one of the people that preach fixing the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball before worrying about the glory positions. The OLine does need work there is no doubt about that. But trying to replace a rookie C, that overall played better than average and a G that has been one of the best in the league for years and will have a huge $$ tag that you can't get rid of??? That's just A-nine. From all accounts before and during the season, the C has all the brain power to make the calls, he just needs to get in the weight room, which I am pretty sure he will. The G will be fine, quit freaking out. My $$ says let JT walk, use WL, and use that $$ elsewhere. Then draft someone to be the swing T and other position competition.

The suggestion put forth by myself and at least one other in the thread is to add a guard in the draft to compete with Bartch - and try to find one who has played some center so you have a emergency contingency at C in case Fortner doesn't develop like he should or gets hurt. 

This is neither expensive, nor asinine. 

I'm guessing you didn't read the thread.

Also - Fortner's pass blocking was statistically not better than average as you've asserted.  
You don't move on from a rookie with upside, but you can add versatility to the line to cover your butt in case he struggles again.

(01-25-2023, 03:45 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2023, 03:33 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I've been a broken record about the deficiency here this year and many of you have let me know I'm perhaps too over-the-top in my criticism. 
Maybe.
But nonetheless - here is a thread on the topic and I'll be posting gifs of some of the gaffes as I compile them.

As mentioned in another thread, you'll notice stunts and twists giving these guys fits at times. They release guys inside too often. Some run blocking mishaps mixed in too. 

I started roughly around mid season in reviewing all22 footage and focused on Fortner. I'm only three games in, but here's what I've found so far:

"Find some bad plays by the center."  

My question is, can you do this with any other team?  In other words, is it really abnormal for a defensive line stunt to work occasionally?

(01-25-2023, 08:21 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]I dont think Fortner is going anywhere.  Boselli has talked highly of him.  In Baalke's presser, he talked highly of him.  Lageman has as well.  Everyone has said Fortner needs a full offseason to workout and get stronger.  But you can tell the team seems to love his smarts, his attitude, etc... just that he needs to get stronger.  I'd be stunned if he isn't starting at center next year.  Stunned!  Scherff isn't going anywhere due to his salary.  Only question is if they bring in help to backfill Bartch.  But that also depends on if they thought Bartch was doing well before getting hurt.  Not as though he got benched, he just got hurt.  Shatley is a great swing backup so I'm sure he'll be back as well.  And if they bring back Jawaan, possible they start Little at LG and use Bartch and Shatley as the swing guys.

(01-26-2023, 12:35 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Now post his good plays. Some of these are stunts and twists. But you’re right, we need a pro bowl center or just under pro bowl level at every position.

We made the playoffs with him. I wonder if Fortner can slow Kelce down or Mahome Boy.

How come Walker ain’t getting this same treatment. It’s always too soon with him tho. Same crowd that said Taylor sucked. I made a challenge thread and everybody quickly changed their perception bc they actually went back and watched. Everybody in sports has a low light real.

The real problem is Scherff.

make all the low lights you want, Fortner will still be the center for the next 3 years. Here’s some other stuff to cry about, if they resign Taylor, Little is going straight back to ridin pine or moving to Guard. (Facts)

(01-26-2023, 02:12 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, rookie center plays like rookie center. Film at elev-...4:33pm yesterday.

(01-26-2023, 04:27 PM)MojoKing Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody:
Baalke: “Luke has a bright future in the NFL”
NYC: Deez GIFs doh

(02-12-2023, 12:10 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2023, 11:37 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Shatley and Fortner here:

So what is your conclusion here?  I don't necessarily disagree that we should upgrade our offensive line, but showing a few bad plays doesn't prove that point.  Occasionally, the defensive linemen do win.   They get paid, too.

Welp -

This old thread illustrates the concern I had last year about Center and LG. 

I thought we'd need to at least draft one good player who could cover either Center or Guard to make sure we didn't have a problem and not doing so has bitten us squarely in the backside. Bartch was terrible - Fortner has been too. 

Fortner has not developed yet and actually looks worse so far while saddled with bad LG play from Bartch and Shatlet + another injury for Scherff to struggler playing through. 

Can't go back and fix the draft or free agency moves now, so we just have to hope the LT/LG shakeup we have on tap with Cam and Little will help Fortner pick up his play and maybe Scherff gets a bit healthier. Unlikely at his age playing on an injured ankle every week. But, I'll hold out hope. He protected quite well in week 4. Maybe that will be a trend. 

Anyway - all you folks quoted who thought I was being hypercritical to point out Fortner and Shatley struggling are welcome to eat your damn crow any old time here. LOL

I don't know about crow... just seems to be spin doctoring and hope that the off-season would work wonders. Welp... nope. I don't know the college players so well but..... draft and free agency seemed like replacement over improvement.

2nd year center plays like 2nd year center, film at 930.

(02-12-2023, 06:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Here's one with Cam and Shatley getting beat 

Whata the point of this clip? Titans have some studs on that DLine that can get cause havoc. Simmons, Landry, Autry, and the list goes on...

(10-07-2023, 10:38 PM)BaLLin4Life Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-12-2023, 06:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Here's one with Cam and Shatley getting beat 

Whata the point of this clip? Titans have some studs on that DLine that can get cause havoc. Simmons, Landry, Autry, and the list goes on...

It is a thread from last year about the center and left guard playing poorly

The clip shows the center and left guard playing poorly

Next man up mentality.

huh... So the O-Line sucked last year too? wow, what a revelation!!

But NYC4Jags is like, naw man, it's the O-Line that sucks...

What?!!?

NO, bruh, it was the play calling the whole time! And guess what, this game against the Bills proves it. Eat your bacon and eggs.