(10-13-2023, 08:14 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2023, 02:14 PM)Wmikesez Wrote: [ -> ]True, but if this little game ends, public order and elections end along with it.
So are saying you are content with the status quo as opposed to fixing this thing that we all agree is broken?
I am content with my own life, the thing I have the most control over.
I am not content with how our government has worked, and how many people have not voted at all, and how those who have voted have chosen bombastic charlatans more and more often.
I am all for exposing the corruption of some of the people playing the game. And that is happening more than it used to.
I am all for educating people about the value of compromise, which fewer and fewer people appreciate. If a politician today stood up and said, "I do not like this idea, but I will vote for it if you vote for my idea," most of us would say "gross." It reads inauthentic to us. People on this board would say "no!! Single subject bills only!" But 50 years ago, the Americans paying attention would have said, "good. That's your job." It's definitely a both sides deal as early on in his term Trump was offering Democrats deals that they should have taken. We have more Americans paying attention today, but they don't understand political science and are expecting to see something more like a wrestling show where there is just a bit of excitement until one guy gets everything he wanted.
My message is, if you want to pay attention to the sausage getting made, learn what it's actually supposed to look like, dig into the history. If you don't want to do that work, you're better off just disengaging and avoiding the hot take machine that tries to make the hero of the day and the villain of the day.
(10-13-2023, 09:03 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2023, 08:32 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]You're asking Mike this question? Seriously?
I know asking Mike a direct question concerning his core values is like trying to nail jello to a wall. I have hopes that one day he actually provides an honest answer.
My core belief is that the day to day culture war and fiscal politics is largely irrelevant compared to the longer term trust and social capital that are needed to have a prosperous country. Any country can degrade into lawlessness and civil war if enough people start distrusting its institutions. People who cast aspersions against the institutions without evidence, or without a somewhat consistent framework, or who do so but fail to get involved in trying to make them better, are a social disease.
My failing (one of them) in internet forums like this is you (any of you) might intend something as a joke but I take it seriously because I think a certain type of joke can be very dangerous.
(10-13-2023, 10:26 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2023, 08:14 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]So are saying you are content with the status quo as opposed to fixing this thing that we all agree is broken?
I am content with my own life, the thing I have the most control over.
I am not content with how our government has worked, and how many people have not voted at all, and how those who have voted have chosen bombastic charlatans more and more often.
I am all for exposing the corruption of some of the people playing the game. And that is happening more than it used to.
I am all for educating people about the value of compromise, which fewer and fewer people appreciate. If a politician today stood up and said, "I do not like this idea, but I will vote for it if you vote for my idea," most of us would say "gross." It reads inauthentic to us. People on this board would say "no!! Single subject bills only!" But 50 years ago, the Americans paying attention would have said, "good. That's your job." It's definitely a both sides deal as early on in his term Trump was offering Democrats deals that they should have taken. We have more Americans paying attention today, but they don't understand political science and are expecting to see something more like a wrestling show where there is just a bit of excitement until one guy gets everything he wanted.
My message is, if you want to pay attention to the sausage getting made, learn what it's actually supposed to look like, dig into the history. If you don't want to do that work, you're better off just disengaging and avoiding the hot take machine that tries to make the hero of the day and the villain of the day.
+1 Mike. Excellent answer and I agree compromise is a necessity. I believe the pushback you are seeing from those on the right is for far too long the only side compromising was the right.
I don't think the Republicans will be able to elect a Speaker by themselves. They are too split. I think the path forward will involve a compromise candidate who can get some Democrat votes. But that would mean some Democrats would have to defy the Democrat leadership and cross over and support a Republican. I think right now the Democrat leadership is enjoying watching the Republicans struggle to elect a Speaker. But for the good of the country, some Democrats are going to have to cross over. And to get them to cross over, the Republican compromise candidate is going to have to give up some things.
I think we're stuck. Hard to see a way forward from here.
(10-14-2023, 08:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Republicans will be able to elect a Speaker by themselves. They are too split. I think the path forward will involve a compromise candidate who can get some Democrat votes. But that would mean some Democrats would have to defy the Democrat leadership and cross over and support a Republican. I think right now the Democrat leadership is enjoying watching the Republicans struggle to elect a Speaker. But for the good of the country, some Democrats are going to have to cross over. And to get them to cross over, the Republican compromise candidate is going to have to give up some things.
I think we're stuck. Hard to see a way forward from here.
Yeah, the 60 or so Republicans who want to punish the 8 or 10 that ousted McCarthy have to understand that the 8 or 10 aren't just going to sit back and take it. The 60 have to try to make a deal with at least some Democrats to replace those 8 or 10 Republicans or they have to give up on punishing their fellow Republicans. It's up to them. What's the Democrats' price? If it's low it might be acceptable.
In principle I think McCarthy was a bad leader and deserved to be ousted. The House needs to use its committee process more and the Speaker needs to defer to the committees more, the House committees need to take advice from Senate leadership (and vice versa) and there should never be a last minute bill to solve a deadline that everyone knew about for months. And we need to be moving to reduce spending and debt. However that's not why McCarthy was ousted. He was ousted because 8 Republicans wanted to punish him for working with Democrats. He has to work with Democrats because Democrats control the Senate and the White House. McCarthy was punished for the one thing he did right while he was on the job.
(10-14-2023, 09:10 AM)I mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 08:32 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Republicans will be able to elect a Speaker by themselves. They are too split. I think the path forward will involve a compromise candidate who can get some Democrat votes. But that would mean some Democrats would have to defy the Democrat leadership and cross over and support a Republican. I think right now the Democrat leadership is enjoying watching the Republicans struggle to elect a Speaker. But for the good of the country, some Democrats are going to have to cross over. And to get them to cross over, the Republican compromise candidate is going to have to give up some things.
I think we're stuck. Hard to see a way forward from here.
Yeah, the 60 or so Republicans who want to punish the 8 or 10 that ousted McCarthy have to understand that the 8 or 10 aren't just going to sit back and take it. The 60 have to try to make a deal with at least some Democrats to replace those 8 or 10 Republicans or they have to give up on punishing their fellow Republicans. It's up to them. What's the Democrats' price? If it's low it might be acceptable.
In principle I think McCarthy was a bad leader and deserved to be ousted. The House needs to use its committee process more and the Speaker needs to defer to the committees more, the House committees need to take advice from Senate leadership (and vice versa) and there should never be a last minute bill to solve a deadline that everyone knew about for months. And we need to be moving to reduce spending and debt. However that's not why McCarthy was ousted. He was ousted because 8 Republicans wanted to punish him for working with Democrats. He has to work with Democrats because Democrats control the Senate and the White House. McCarthy was punished for the one thing he did right while he was on the job.
McCarthy’s refusal to oust Pelosi from the speaker office made him unworthy.
(10-14-2023, 05:07 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2023, 09:10 AM)I mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, the 60 or so Republicans who want to punish the 8 or 10 that ousted McCarthy have to understand that the 8 or 10 aren't just going to sit back and take it. The 60 have to try to make a deal with at least some Democrats to replace those 8 or 10 Republicans or they have to give up on punishing their fellow Republicans. It's up to them. What's the Democrats' price? If it's low it might be acceptable.
In principle I think McCarthy was a bad leader and deserved to be ousted. The House needs to use its committee process more and the Speaker needs to defer to the committees more, the House committees need to take advice from Senate leadership (and vice versa) and there should never be a last minute bill to solve a deadline that everyone knew about for months. And we need to be moving to reduce spending and debt. However that's not why McCarthy was ousted. He was ousted because 8 Republicans wanted to punish him for working with Democrats. He has to work with Democrats because Democrats control the Senate and the White House. McCarthy was punished for the one thing he did right while he was on the job.
McCarthy’s refusal to oust Pelosi from the speaker office made him unworthy.
Why would he oust someone from his own party?