(01-01-2024, 07:56 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 09:18 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He's the best player on a bad line by a slim margin. It's not his play that bothers me, it's his cost and risk. There's better players out there who are less risky IMO; I think Baalke can find them if he focuses on it.
You have more confidence in him than I do.
He's not bad at pro personnel, it's the draft that sucks.
(01-01-2024, 07:04 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 06:34 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It's kinda funny that a few months ago Cam was overpaid, an easy cut for cap savings and should be replaced by Little.
How quick your fortunes can change in the league.
Yes, the "cut Cam, save a little money and put Little at LT" plan feels a lot riskier now than it did in September.
Too many question marks swirling around Little for me to feel the same confidence in him I had months ago.
I hope it really is just a matter of not settling into a spot, but even if that is the case, his durability may continue to be an issue as well based on all we have to go on thus far.
Well I thought you made some good points when we discussed this last week. I'd love to use that cap on other parts of the roster and have Little as a ready made replacement but it's not looking that simple. Cam is getting $21.6m next year which is an awful lot. We need to add to the Oline and if we can restructure that, add another year and give Little more time to develop, try and get healthier and be a depth option, that looks a pretty good option. We need to add to the Oline this summer and we can't let too many starters walk and try and replace them and add depth. It's asking too much for one offseason recruitment push.
Feel a bit for Little, he's been put in so many different positions and working around injuries or other players he hasn't been able to just come in and improve in one spot like Harrison or Fortner have.
(01-01-2024, 07:15 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 06:34 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]It's kinda funny that a few months ago Cam was overpaid, an easy cut for cap savings and should be replaced by Little.
How quick your fortunes can change in the league.
I was never on the Little train, it was usually the lawrence posterboys on these forums that hate Cam that thought he was "easily replacable"....
Cam is easily the best OL we have and it isnt even close.
Little is a backup swing tackle in the league.
Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
(01-01-2024, 08:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 07:56 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ]You have more confidence in him than I do.
He's not bad at pro personnel, it's the draft that sucks.
But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
(01-02-2024, 09:33 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 08:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He's not bad at pro personnel, it's the draft that sucks.
But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't want Baalke to be the GM at all, I just think he's capable of solving this particular problem if he goes after it in Free Agency or the 1st Round. Other than that I have no confidence that he can do it.
(01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 07:15 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ]I was never on the Little train, it was usually the lawrence posterboys on these forums that hate Cam that thought he was "easily replacable"....
Cam is easily the best OL we have and it isnt even close.
Little is a backup swing tackle in the league.
Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
He called Robinson a "top" left tackle in the League. It's clear he's chosen to White Knight PEDSRob to make his mark here.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExMTBjNTZiamYyMTgxaW5lZTBsb2t4eGozNG96aW5mejVmZWFjamRlYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/65os7odbIW6pa/giphy.gif)
(01-02-2024, 09:33 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 08:50 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]He's not bad at pro personnel, it's the draft that sucks.
But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
guys he's drafted that are either good or elite players:
2021 (arguably one of our best classes ever honestly.)
T Law
ETN
Tyson Campbell
Andre Cisco
Walker Little (he's regressed a bit, but still this was an impressive class)
2022 (Not nearly as impressive as the year before, but both first round picks look like hits at the moment.)
Travon Walker
Devin Lloyd
Montaric Brown
2023
Anton Harrison
Parker Washington (big maybe)
IMO Balke has been rock solid in the first round, not so much in the later rounds aside from the first year.
(01-02-2024, 09:43 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 09:33 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ]But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't want Baalke to be the GM at all, I just think he's capable of solving this particular problem if he goes after it in Free Agency or the 1st Round. Other than that I have no confidence that he can do it.
(01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
He called Robinson a "top" left tackle in the League. It's clear he's chosen to White Knight PEDSRob to make his mark here.
Cam Robinson is a really solid player tho, his injuries/suspensions and things of that nature tho are troublesome.
(01-02-2024, 11:18 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 09:33 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ]But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
guys he's drafted that are either good or elite players:
2021 (arguably one of our best classes ever honestly.)
T Law
ETN
Tyson Campbell
Andre Cisco
Walker Little (he's regressed a bit, but still this was an impressive class)
2022 (Not nearly as impressive as the year before, but both first round picks look like hits at the moment.)
Travon Walker
Devin Lloyd
Montaric Brown
2023
Anton Harrison
Parker Washington (big maybe)
IMO Balke has been rock solid in the first round, not so much in the later rounds aside from the first year.
(01-02-2024, 09:43 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't want Baalke to be the GM at all, I just think he's capable of solving this particular problem if he goes after it in Free Agency or the 1st Round. Other than that I have no confidence that he can do it.
He called Robinson a "top" left tackle in the League. It's clear he's chosen to White Knight PEDSRob to make his mark here.
Cam Robinson is a really solid player tho, his injuries/suspensions and things of that nature tho are troublesome.
I would add from 2023's class Antonio Johnson as well. He looks like he'll eventually replace somebody like Rayshawn Jenkins as a safety and can offer nickel CB versatility.
I am on the fence with 2021's class. While Campbell and Cisco have been good, they have a tendency to just disappear at times, and, for better or worse? This defense is still towards the bottom in the NFL. With or without injuries. They need to be better going forward.
2022's class is really all about Walker and Lloyd as you said. I still think the Muma pick was a bad choice on paper. Waste of a high 3rd RD pick in my opinion. Jury out on Strange and Bigsby from 2023's class as well.
At the moment. Robinson > Little. By a lot. Figure out a way to restructure his contract for a year or two if you can, if not, you may have to cut him, tough cut, will leave a lot of concerns going into March and April. Not a fan of trying to backfill or upgrade four spots on this offensive line.
(01-01-2024, 09:25 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 07:04 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, the "cut Cam, save a little money and put Little at LT" plan feels a lot riskier now than it did in September.
Too many question marks swirling around Little for me to feel the same confidence in him I had months ago.
I hope it really is just a matter of not settling into a spot, but even if that is the case, his durability may continue to be an issue as well based on all we have to go on thus far.
Well I thought you made some good points when we discussed this last week. I'd love to use that cap on other parts of the roster and have Little as a ready made replacement but it's not looking that simple. Cam is getting $21.6m next year which is an awful lot. We need to add to the Oline and if we can restructure that, add another year and give Little more time to develop, try and get healthier and be a depth option, that looks a pretty good option. We need to add to the Oline this summer and we can't let too many starters walk and try and replace them and add depth. It's asking too much for one offseason recruitment push.
Feel a bit for Little, he's been put in so many different positions and working around injuries or other players he hasn't been able to just come in and improve in one spot like Harrison or Fortner have.
Right - as a fan I'm trepidatious over the decisions on OL because I'm so tired of it being horrible and don't want that to continue.
But the folks in the building may have a completely different type of confidence or certainty of opinion on Walker Little playing tackle next year. They may already be locked in on him as a starter, ready to get a contingency plan in place if he falters, or planning to make him depth.
So - I figure we are probably going to be in limbo there until we maybe get some hints from Doug or Trent in March prior to free agency.
Personally - if they decide to move on from Cam - I hope they go LT in round one keeping Walker Little as depth/insurance - sign the best free agent center available - and re-up Ezra Cleveland at LG.
Safest play at RG would be to ride it out with Scherff one more year but get a 3rd/4th round rookie added to learn behind him on the depth chart.
(01-02-2024, 09:43 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 09:33 AM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ]But the draft is really where a good GM earns his pay. If they brought in someone as the GM who was a better evaluator for the draft and kept Baalke as a VP of Player Personnel or something that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world I guess.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't want Baalke to be the GM at all, I just think he's capable of solving this particular problem if he goes after it in Free Agency or the 1st Round. Other than that I have no confidence that he can do it.
(01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
He called Robinson a "top" left tackle in the League. It's clear he's chosen to White Knight PEDSRob to make his mark here.
I mean most of the reason he's getting so much love this week was for throwing a guys helmet into the endzone and getting ejected!!
(01-02-2024, 11:35 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 09:25 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Well I thought you made some good points when we discussed this last week. I'd love to use that cap on other parts of the roster and have Little as a ready made replacement but it's not looking that simple. Cam is getting $21.6m next year which is an awful lot. We need to add to the Oline and if we can restructure that, add another year and give Little more time to develop, try and get healthier and be a depth option, that looks a pretty good option. We need to add to the Oline this summer and we can't let too many starters walk and try and replace them and add depth. It's asking too much for one offseason recruitment push.
Feel a bit for Little, he's been put in so many different positions and working around injuries or other players he hasn't been able to just come in and improve in one spot like Harrison or Fortner have.
Right - as a fan I'm trepidatious over the decisions on OL because I'm so tired of it being horrible and don't want that to continue.
But the folks in the building may have a completely different type of confidence or certainty of opinion on Walker Little playing tackle next year. They may already be locked in on him as a starter, ready to get a contingency plan in place if he falters, or planning to make him depth.
So - I figure we are probably going to be in limbo there until we maybe get some hints from Doug or Trent in March prior to free agency.
Personally - if they decide to move on from Cam - I hope they go LT in round one keeping Walker Little as depth/insurance - sign the best free agent center available - and re-up Ezra Cleveland at LG.
Safest play at RG would be to ride it out with Scherff one more year but get a 3rd/4th round rookie added to learn behind him on the depth chart.
Yeah I agree that this is a conversation that had been had or is ongoing in the building right now. Allen is getting paid this offseason, not sure what happens with Ridley and I do think they'll try and sort something with Trevor and there's a few other guys we could do with keeping so they may need to cut someone to help do all those things. Scherff and Cam seem the easiest paths to do that but it may be a case of working out which one they cut. I'm sure they'd like some ammunition to go into FA this year and try and bring in some help. OL and DL have to be the priority this offseason so I wonder which gets the more attention in FA and higher draft picks.
I'd definitely keep Cleveland, we've seen some good days from Little (and some bad) and I'd like to try and get him more snaps and see if he can continue, it's still his 2nd season and missed most of his first, see if he can improve with time. Any quality Olineman who hits FA will get grossly overpaid but may find a bit of cheaper help from an older guy and use 1st round pick to replace whoever they cut from Cam/Scherff.
Your signing your guys, adding some more depth with FA and draft help and got a group of 7 OL to build a line with your best 5. It's not perfect but feels a step forward from this year.
(01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 07:15 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ]I was never on the Little train, it was usually the lawrence posterboys on these forums that hate Cam that thought he was "easily replacable"....
Cam is easily the best OL we have and it isnt even close.
Little is a backup swing tackle in the league.
Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
Fortner still being young is about the only nice thing we can say about his play this season. His nick name should be Pillow Fortner, amirite? I'll see myself out.
(01-02-2024, 04:37 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
Fortner still being young is about the only nice thing we can say about his play this season. His nick name should be Pillow Fortner, amirite? I'll see myself out.
No. You can stay with that one. That was pretty good! That's his nickname now. Pillow Fortner. I'll give credit where it's due when my family hears me throwing it around like a curse to the wind.
(01-02-2024, 04:37 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
Fortner still being young is about the only nice thing we can say about his play this season. His nick name should be Pillow Fortner, amirite? I'll see myself out.
Lol!!! I like it. That or the stadium should just rename the turnstiles as Fortners.
(01-02-2024, 04:43 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 04:37 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Fortner still being young is about the only nice thing we can say about his play this season. His nick name should be Pillow Fortner, amirite? I'll see myself out.
No. You can stay with that one. That was pretty good! That's his nickname now. Pillow Fortner. I'll give credit where it's due when my family hears me throwing it around like a curse to the wind.
Thanks, it honestly just hit me as I was typing the first sentence above and I cracked up so thought I'd share.
(01-02-2024, 04:37 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (01-01-2024, 09:30 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Let's be honest, it's not been a high performing Oline. Scherff has been a disappointment this year, Fortner is still young, Harrison is a rookie and LG still feels an open position. Cam has had injury problems, off field problems and is getting north of $20m a year. Little felt like a draft choice to give the FO a replacement for Cam.
Little has struggled this year and Cam has plated pretty well this year but the reasons people had for moving on were legitimate but right now letting Cam go feels like we would be making ourselves weaker at Oline when we need to be adding quality and depth.
Fortner still being young is about the only nice thing we can say about his play this season. His nick name should be Pillow Fortner, amirite? I'll see myself out.
Fortner actually isn’t all that young. He’s like two years older than the Ravens Linderbaum, and even a year older than Creed Humphrey.
(01-02-2024, 04:52 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 04:43 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]No. You can stay with that one. That was pretty good! That's his nickname now. Pillow Fortner. I'll give credit where it's due when my family hears me throwing it around like a curse to the wind.
Thanks, it honestly just hit me as I was typing the first sentence above and I cracked up so thought I'd share.
Good idea for Rauscher's next line of camp tee shirts.
![[Image: 32nd.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/zfZP3DPx/32nd.png)
(01-02-2024, 11:24 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (01-02-2024, 11:18 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]guys he's drafted that are either good or elite players:
2021 (arguably one of our best classes ever honestly.)
T Law
ETN
Tyson Campbell
Andre Cisco
Walker Little (he's regressed a bit, but still this was an impressive class)
2022 (Not nearly as impressive as the year before, but both first round picks look like hits at the moment.)
Travon Walker
Devin Lloyd
Montaric Brown
2023
Anton Harrison
Parker Washington (big maybe)
IMO Balke has been rock solid in the first round, not so much in the later rounds aside from the first year.
Cam Robinson is a really solid player tho, his injuries/suspensions and things of that nature tho are troublesome.
I would add from 2023's class Antonio Johnson as well. He looks like he'll eventually replace somebody like Rayshawn Jenkins as a safety and can offer nickel CB versatility.
I am on the fence with 2021's class. While Campbell and Cisco have been good, they have a tendency to just disappear at times, and, for better or worse? This defense is still towards the bottom in the NFL. With or without injuries. They need to be better going forward.
2022's class is really all about Walker and Lloyd as you said. I still think the Muma pick was a bad choice on paper. Waste of a high 3rd RD pick in my opinion. Jury out on Strange and Bigsby from 2023's class as well.
At the moment. Robinson > Little. By a lot. Figure out a way to restructure his contract for a year or two if you can, if not, you may have to cut him, tough cut, will leave a lot of concerns going into March and April. Not a fan of trying to backfill or upgrade four spots on this offensive line.
Campbell and Cisco have been struggling with injuries this year.
When fully healthy, they are very good players.
Aside from Anton Harrison (who is a rookie and has played decent), the rest of the line has been questionable. Either from injuries, missed assignments, and constant shifting of players. I wouldnt be surprised to see 3 new starters at OL next season. Cleveland came in the middle of the season. He didn't have much time to settle into the system. I'll give him a small pass for now.
Cam has been on and off. And has always been. His penalty bugs in his earlier years have driven me crazy. Injuries and suspensions also play a factor in him not being completely reliable.
Whatever it takes next year, bulk that OL up.