Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(09-16-2024, 08:39 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You guys act like the play call is such that only one guy can be targeted per play. That isn't how it works. Do you know how many times BTj was the first read and it wasn't there? I don't, so I'm not going to sit here and say "X player should be targeted Y times minimum" because that isn't how it works. If you'll open up the memory holes you'll remember that you guys were [BLEEP] up a storm about them overtargeting Agent Zero last year, so forcing the ball to a guy who isn't open isn't what you want either. You're just mad that the plays aren't working, and that's fine. But these "solutions" aren't solutions, they're just grousing.

Disagree. Prioritizing getting the best players the ball is exactly how it works at all levels of football. Each week the primary goal of a play caller is getting the best players the ball because the best players make the most plays. It really is that simple. If something prevents that (scheme/OL protection/QB not making accurate passes/right reads, ect) you got inherent problems to address. 

No one is saying to force the ball every play to the point of diminishing returns. 4 targets back-to-back games is inexcusable and shows there are inherent problems in the offense. There's a wide range of middle ground to found between 4 targets and forcing the ball to him every snap. The solution to an offense that struggles to score points is getting the ball to the guys that can score points... It's the coaches' job to figure out how.

(09-16-2024, 09:06 AM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 08:39 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You guys act like the play call is such that only one guy can be targeted per play. That isn't how it works. Do you know how many times BTj was the first read and it wasn't there? I don't, so I'm not going to sit here and say "X player should be targeted Y times minimum" because that isn't how it works. If you'll open up the memory holes you'll remember that you guys were [BLEEP] up a storm about them overtargeting Agent Zero last year, so forcing the ball to a guy who isn't open isn't what you want either. You're just mad that the plays aren't working, and that's fine. But these "solutions" aren't solutions, they're just grousing.

Disagree. Prioritizing getting the best players the ball is exactly how it works at all levels of football. Each week the primary goal of a play caller is getting the best players the ball because the best players make the most plays. It really is that simple. If something prevents that (scheme/OL protection/QB not making accurate passes/right reads, ect) you got inherent problems to address. 

No one is saying to force the ball every play to the point of diminishing returns. 4 targets back-to-back games is inexcusable and shows there are inherent problems in the offense. There's a wide range of middle ground to found between 4 targets and forcing the ball to him every snap. The solution to an offense that struggles to score points is getting the ball to the guys that can score points... It's the coaches' job to figure out how.

Disagree all you want, the fact remains that none of us are sitting here knowing how many play calls were with BTj as the primary. The coach isn't on the sideline pushing X to throw to the primary receiver, the players have to execute. If BTj is primary on 5 passing routes, 2nd option of 6 more, and 3rd on 4 but gets 4 targets that's not on the coach. If he's the 3rd option and open but the line couldn't protect that long that's not on the coach or BTj, it's on the line (mostly) and QB (some). With this line usually there's little time to get to the 2nd option, it's first guy or get sacked/flushed and then it's schoolyard ball.

(09-16-2024, 09:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 09:06 AM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]Disagree. Prioritizing getting the best players the ball is exactly how it works at all levels of football. Each week the primary goal of a play caller is getting the best players the ball because the best players make the most plays. It really is that simple. If something prevents that (scheme/OL protection/QB not making accurate passes/right reads, ect) you got inherent problems to address. 

No one is saying to force the ball every play to the point of diminishing returns. 4 targets back-to-back games is inexcusable and shows there are inherent problems in the offense. There's a wide range of middle ground to found between 4 targets and forcing the ball to him every snap. The solution to an offense that struggles to score points is getting the ball to the guys that can score points... It's the coaches' job to figure out how.

Disagree all you want, the fact remains that none of us are sitting here knowing how many play calls were with BTj as the primary. The coach isn't on the sideline pushing X to throw to the primary receiver, the players have to execute. If BTj is primary on 5 passing routes, 2nd option of 6 more, and 3rd on 4 but gets 4 targets that's not on the coach. If he's the 3rd option and open but the line couldn't protect that long that's not on the coach or BTj, it's on the line (mostly) and QB (some). With this line usually there's little time to get to the 2nd option, it's first guy or get sacked/flushed and then it's schoolyard ball.

The bold is the primary issue. Correct, we don't know how many times he was the first read. All we know is he wasn't the first read/primary target enough otherwise he would have more targets than 8 total in 2 games. That is on the coaches/play calling. I do agree pass pro is a core issue with getting the ball to Thomas. It all works together, some parts more or less of course, but we do know by the target data one part not working well is the coaches making BT a priority, or the scheme is inadequate in getting the first read open. You really don't think the coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets a game to their number 1 WR?

(09-16-2024, 08:39 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You guys act like the play call is such that only one guy can be targeted per play. That isn't how it works. Do you know how many times BTj was the first read and it wasn't there? I don't, so I'm not going to sit here and say "X player should be targeted Y times minimum" because that isn't how it works. If you'll open up the memory holes you'll remember that you guys were [BLEEP] up a storm about them overtargeting Agent Zero last year, so forcing the ball to a guy who isn't open isn't what you want either. You're just mad that the plays aren't working, and that's fine. But these "solutions" aren't solutions, they're just grousing.

silly flsg, trying to bring logic into a thread.

(09-16-2024, 11:05 AM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 09:20 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Disagree all you want, the fact remains that none of us are sitting here knowing how many play calls were with BTj as the primary. The coach isn't on the sideline pushing X to throw to the primary receiver, the players have to execute. If BTj is primary on 5 passing routes, 2nd option of 6 more, and 3rd on 4 but gets 4 targets that's not on the coach. If he's the 3rd option and open but the line couldn't protect that long that's not on the coach or BTj, it's on the line (mostly) and QB (some). With this line usually there's little time to get to the 2nd option, it's first guy or get sacked/flushed and then it's schoolyard ball.

The bold is the primary issue. Correct, we don't know how many times he was the first read. All we know is he wasn't the first read/primary target enough otherwise he would have more targets than 8 total in 2 games. That is on the coaches/play calling. I do agree pass pro is a core issue with getting the ball to Thomas. It all works together, some parts more or less of course, but we do know by the target data one part not working well is the coaches making BT a priority, or the scheme is inadequate in getting the first read open. You really don't think the coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets a game to their number 1 WR?

That is called an opinion, that's not the same as a fact.

(09-16-2024, 01:02 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 11:05 AM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]The bold is the primary issue. Correct, we don't know how many times he was the first read. All we know is he wasn't the first read/primary target enough otherwise he would have more targets than 8 total in 2 games. That is on the coaches/play calling. I do agree pass pro is a core issue with getting the ball to Thomas. It all works together, some parts more or less of course, but we do know by the target data one part not working well is the coaches making BT a priority, or the scheme is inadequate in getting the first read open. You really don't think the coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets a game to their number 1 WR?

That is called an opinion, that's not the same as a fact.

It's called deductive reasoning... They either can't adequately scheme the first read open enough times in a game or he's not the first option enough. It's one of the two and both failures fall on the coaches. Getting the ball to your best WR is football 101 and it's not happening enough. That we know.

(09-16-2024, 01:39 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 01:02 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]That is called an opinion, that's not the same as a fact.

It's called deductive reasoning... They either can't adequately scheme the first read open enough times in a game or he's not the first option enough. It's one of the two and both failures fall on the coaches. Getting the ball to your best WR is football 101 and it's not happening enough. That we know.

All you know is that BTj isn't targeted enough, you have no idea why. It's deductive guessing.

(09-16-2024, 01:58 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 01:39 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]It's called deductive reasoning... They either can't adequately scheme the first read open enough times in a game or he's not the first option enough. It's one of the two and both failures fall on the coaches. Getting the ball to your best WR is football 101 and it's not happening enough. That we know.

All you know is that BTj isn't targeted enough, you have no idea why. It's deductive guessing.

Yes, there are myriad reasons why he may not be getting the look, But even aside from that, it should be no shock that this coaching staff would seek to target other weapons available to them who are not rookies. 

Week one/two Is not a typical timeline to see a rookie receiver get anything near a majority of the targets.

(09-16-2024, 01:58 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 01:39 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]It's called deductive reasoning... They either can't adequately scheme the first read open enough times in a game or he's not the first option enough. It's one of the two and both failures fall on the coaches. Getting the ball to your best WR is football 101 and it's not happening enough. That we know.

All you know is that BTj isn't targeted enough, you have no idea why. It's deductive guessing.

Incorrect. I do have an idea why. 2 ideas in fact and the answer/solution lays in one of the two reasons I listed. It doesn't matter which one it is the end result is the same and that is the issue, not that I don't know each play call and order of reads lol. Who cares if I know why out of the two, we do know they can fix it. What an odd argument. 
 
Again, you really don't think the Jag coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets to their number 1 WR? Why not in your opinion?

(09-16-2024, 02:09 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 01:58 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]All you know is that BTj isn't targeted enough, you have no idea why. It's deductive guessing.

Incorrect. I do have an idea why. 2 ideas in fact and the answer/solution lays in one of the two reasons I listed. It doesn't matter which one it is the end result is the same and that is the issue, not that I don't know each play call and order of reads lol. Who cares if I know why out of the two, we do know they can fix it. What an odd argument. 
 
Again, you really don't think the Jag coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets to their number 1 WR? Why not in your opinion?

LOL

Dude - there are many reasons he's not getting more looks and the two most glaringly obvious are that:

* he's a damn rookie among several other viable well paid vets and they aren't going to treat him like a #1 right out of the gate - it's conventional wisdom and common practice 

 * pressure moving the QB off his spot in under two seconds usually takes away two reads immediately and limits the throw to a remaining read or an improvisation

Just 2 games into a season with a lousy start and we're already starting to fight each other.
We have the Bills at their home next week ...so the Jags better get their crap together
in a tight little ball. 

(09-16-2024, 02:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 02:09 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]Incorrect. I do have an idea why. 2 ideas in fact and the answer/solution lays in one of the two reasons I listed. It doesn't matter which one it is the end result is the same and that is the issue, not that I don't know each play call and order of reads lol. Who cares if I know why out of the two, we do know they can fix it. What an odd argument. 
 
Again, you really don't think the Jag coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets to their number 1 WR? Why not in your opinion?

LOL

Dude - there are many reasons he's not getting more looks and the two most glaringly obvious are that:

* he's a damn rookie among several other viable well paid vets and they aren't going to treat him like a #1 right out of the gate - it's conventional wisdom and common practice 

 * pressure moving the QB off his spot in under two seconds usually takes away two reads immediately and limits the throw to a remaining read or an improvisation

* The first point falls in line with exactly what I said.... He's not the first read enough, be it the reason he's a rookie or the coaches think others are better or paid more ect ect doesn't matter for this point. Some first round WRs are depended upon out the gate and some are gently brought in. The former happens enough to consider it common practice as well. The question is if the Jags made the right call gently bringing Thomas in and giving him 4 targets a game. Based on the first two games (2 losses) and the individual success of Thomas and the lack of the success from the Jags offense overall when not targeting him, they didn't make the right call. NFL HOF Steve Smith agrees with that sentiment and obviously many casual fans as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an NFL HOF WR to conclude Thomas needs more targets. This falls on the coaches.

* The second point is a valid one. As I said earlier "Each week the primary goal of a play caller is getting the best players the ball because the best players make the most plays. If something prevents that (scheme/OL protection/QB not making accurate passes/right reads, ect) you got inherent problems to address."

Coaches need to fix point one. Prioritize getting him the ball, rookie or not. The second I don't see a quick fix. That will only get better with FA and the draft IMO. I should have re added the point I made earlier that you just reiterated about Pass Pro, which has not been good. I am not of the opinion it's been so bad that is the sole reason Thomas only got 4 targets, it's a clearly a combo. Ridley last season obviously had no problem getting targets with a bad OL. Part of the problem can be fixed immediately. Coaches can absolutely dictate targets to a WR, that happens all the time which is where the original disagreement occurred with flsprtsgod. No, it's not as simple as a coach saying a guy needs 15 targets and magically snap their fingers and that WR gets 15 receptions, but you absolutely can dictate more or less how often a WR is involved in an offense. Anyone that has played QB or WR in their life knows this... poor OL or not.

---

(09-16-2024, 02:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 02:09 PM)ClemsonOrangeJaguar Wrote: [ -> ]Incorrect. I do have an idea why. 2 ideas in fact and the answer/solution lays in one of the two reasons I listed. It doesn't matter which one it is the end result is the same and that is the issue, not that I don't know each play call and order of reads lol. Who cares if I know why out of the two, we do know they can fix it. What an odd argument. 
 
Again, you really don't think the Jag coaches can manufacture more than 4 targets to their number 1 WR? Why not in your opinion?

LOL

Dude - there are many reasons he's not getting more looks and the two most glaringly obvious are that:

* he's a damn rookie among several other viable well paid vets and they aren't going to treat him like a #1 right out of the gate - it's conventional wisdom and common practice 

 * pressure moving the QB off his spot in under two seconds usually takes away two reads immediately and limits the throw to a remaining read or an improvisation

* The first point falls in line with exactly what I said.... He's not the first read enough, be it the reason he's a rookie or the coaches think others are better or paid more ect ect doesn't matter for this point. Some first round WRs are depended upon out the gate and some are gently brought in. The former happens enough to consider it common practice as well. The question is if the Jags made the right call gently bringing Thomas in and giving him 4 targets a game. Based on the first two games (2 losses) and the individual success of Thomas and the lack of the success from the Jags offense overall when not targeting him, they didn't make the right call. NFL HOF Steve Smith agrees with that sentiment and obviously many casual fans as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an NFL HOF WR to conclude Thomas needs more targets. This falls on the coaches.

* The second point is a valid one. As I said earlier "Each week the primary goal of a play caller is getting the best players the ball because the best players make the most plays. If something prevents that (scheme/OL protection/QB not making accurate passes/right reads, ect) you got inherent problems to address."

Coaches need to fix point one. Prioritize getting him the ball, rookie or not. The second I don't see a quick fix. That will only get better with FA and the draft IMO. I should have re added the point I made earlier that you just reiterated about Pass Pro, which has not been good. I am not of the opinion it's been so bad that is the sole reason Thomas only got 4 targets, it's a clearly a combo. Ridley last season obviously had no problem getting targets with a bad OL. Part of the problem can be fixed immediately. Coaches can absolutely dictate targets to a WR, that happens all the time which is where the original disagreement occurred with flsprtsgod. No, it's not as simple as a coach saying a guy needs 15 targets and magically snap their fingers and that WR gets 15 receptions, but you absolutely can dictate more or less how often a WR is involved in an offense. Anyone that has played QB or WR in their life knows this... poor OL or not.

---

(09-16-2024, 03:01 PM)Mowerguy Wrote: [ -> ]Just 2 games into a season with a lousy start and we're already starting to fight each other.
We have the Bills at their home next week ...so the Jags better get their crap together
in a tight little ball. 

Fair point. All I was trying to say is I want Thomas to get the ball and they can do a better job of that. I've made my point I'll move on no need to beat a dead horse.

(09-16-2024, 03:01 PM)Mowerguy Wrote: [ -> ]Just 2 games into a season with a lousy start and we're already starting to fight each other.
We have the Bills at their home next week ...so the Jags better get their crap together
in a tight little ball. 

At least we still care LOL…. What I dread is once apathy sinks in and all the sudden we can only laugh and joke about how bad we are

(09-16-2024, 03:30 PM)TTechJag85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 03:01 PM)Mowerguy Wrote: [ -> ]Just 2 games into a season with a lousy start and we're already starting to fight each other.
We have the Bills at their home next week ...so the Jags better get their crap together
in a tight little ball. 

At least we still care LOL…. What I dread is once apathy sinks in and all the sudden we can only laugh and joke about how bad we are

All of sudden? We've been doing that nearly non-stop for 2 decades with the only exceptions being portions of the 2017 and 2022 seasons once we fans realized the team had a chance.

(09-16-2024, 04:20 PM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-16-2024, 03:30 PM)TTechJag85 Wrote: [ -> ]At least we still care LOL…. What I dread is once apathy sinks in and all the sudden we can only laugh and joke about how bad we are

All of sudden? We've been doing that nearly non-stop for 2 decades with the only exceptions being portions of the 2017 and 2022 seasons once we fans realized the team had a chance.

I know,  but I don’t think we are there yet this year. I think we are still in the “we’re angry who deserves blame and what should  it look like phase” and not the pass me a beer and let’s go watch the circus that’s in town for an hour or so before I have to mow the lawn phase … of course I’m sure every person is in there own phase and some might just be there already anticipating what is to come based on past history LOL

LOL, everyone here is deductive reasoning! It's funny to me that one person's assumption is supposed to be reality, while that same person is also saying "well we don't know".

Yeah, we all don't know.

But we can all see for ourselves what's happening. And what's happening isn't just 1 thing only. And what's happening should be held accountable. Whether it's the O-Line or the coaches. There's ways to figure it out.

(09-16-2024, 06:47 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ]LOL, everyone here is deductive reasoning!  It's funny to me that one person's assumption is supposed to be reality, while that same person is also saying "well we don't know".

Yeah, we all don't know. 

But we can all see for ourselves what's happening.  And what's happening isn't just 1 thing only.  And what's happening should be held accountable.  Whether it's the O-Line or the coaches.  There's ways to figure it out.

Which is why I always caution patience and moderation. No one knows, you only think you do.

I feel like BTJ was involved in the intent of the offense to a pretty healthy level for a rookie in his first two NFL games, but I also think he has shown he's ready for more and I can't wait to see that happen.

Hopefully the protection allows it to be executed more in the coming weeks.

https://twitter.com/gus_logue/status/183...8828798357