Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

idk how many incorrect things this guy has to say before we stop taking him seriously

Quote:Our problem this year was that even when our running backs had some space on the 2nd level, they were so bad that they couldn't finish it. TJ's longest run of the year was 15 yards.

 

I mostly agree on your take about Fournette. 

 

I disagree slightly with the quote above. I think the O-Line was a far greater problem than what the backs did at the second level. 

I'll try to illustrate that with some facts on message-board-whipping-boy TJ Yeldon. I'm not championing the guy. I was underwhelmed a bit when we drafted him, but he showed some potential in his rookie year and was largely stifled by poor blocking in 2016. 

 

Yeldon had a whopping 4 games in which he received more than nine carries in the game in 2016.  (Basically the weeks that Ivory was out or clearly not healthy enough to be effective yet.)

 

I'll break down his runs in these 4 games to illustrate my point that the line was more of a problem than Yeldon's ability at the second level. He rarely had any opportunity at the second level.

 

(Ivory actually ran over some defenders on the second level in about half of the few instances he had the opportunity  -so I'll leave that one alone) 

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Yeldon's Game One - 21 carries vs the Packers:

 

 - On FIVE carries he gained more than five yards.

     (3 of those were good stops by a LB. On was a shoelace tackle by a falling DT. The last was a TD in which he glanced off of a LB and than ran straight over HaHa Clinton Dix to score.) 

 

 - On FIVE more carries he was contacted by defenders behind the line of scrimmage and stopped behind, at, or just beyond the LOS. 

 

 - On THREE carries he was met behind the LOS but evaded the pressure to make a modest gain.

 

 - On SEVEN carries he was met by contact right AT the LOS. (O-linemen were beaten by their opponents -

        - in one of these plays he had an open hole to bounce into but failed to see it.)

 

  - On the ONE remaining carry he made a short gain and was tackled by a LB and safety quickly. Nowhere to go. 

 

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I'll get to the other games after lunch hopefully.  But analyzing those 21 carries, I only saw 3 opportunities where he could have possibly done more than he did with the blocking he was given. 

 

Maybe a Fournette or Cook or "RBx"  does something magic with those 3 carries, but we're talking about a small amount of opportunity behind some pretty bad blocking in 2016. 

 

Yeldon also had ~8 good runs mixed into those 21 carries including a touchdown that you must consider. 

Quote:If I'm gonna take a DE #1 overall, he better be able to do several things, (in no particular order.)



#1 Show dominance by consistently beating double teams.

#2 Show dominance by being in the top 5 college players in sacks for at least 2 years.

#3 Show dominance by being in the top 10 college players in tackles for loss for at least 2 years.

#4 Show the necessary speed to rush off the edge.

#5 Show a variety of moves to get passed opposing OT's.

#6 Show the size/strength necessary to get passed opposing OT's.

#7 Have a clean off the field record.

#8 Show an ability to knock down passes at the line of scrimmage.

#9 Show an ability to strip ball carriers of the football.

#10 Show a history of relatively injury free football.



Garrett doesn't check all of those boxes for me.

Which of those doesn't he have?


Actually I can't think of any prospect with all of them.

Quote:I mostly agree on your take about Fournette.


I disagree slightly with the quote above. I think the O-Line was a far greater problem than what the backs did at the second level.

I'll try to illustrate that with some facts on message-board-whipping-boy TJ Yeldon. I'm not championing the guy. I was underwhelmed a bit when we drafted him, but he showed some potential in his rookie year and was largely stifled by poor blocking in 2016.


Yeldon had a whopping 4 games in which he received more than nine carries in the game in 2016. (Basically the weeks that Ivory was out or clearly not healthy enough to be effective yet.)


I'll break down his runs in these 4 games to illustrate my point that the line was more of a problem than Yeldon's ability at the second level. He rarely had any opportunity at the second level.


(Ivory actually ran over some defenders on the second level in about half of the few instances he had the opportunity -so I'll leave that one alone)

----------------------------------------------------------


Yeldon's Game One - 21 carries vs the Packers:


- On FIVE carries he gained more than five yards.

(3 of those were good stops by a LB. On was a shoelace tackle by a falling DT. The last was a TD in which he glanced off of a LB and than ran straight over HaHa Clinton Dix to score.)


- On FIVE more carries he was contacted by defenders behind the line of scrimmage and stopped behind, at, or just beyond the LOS.


- On THREE carries he was met behind the LOS but evaded the pressure to make a modest gain.


- On SEVEN carries he was met by contact right AT the LOS. (O-linemen were beaten by their opponents -

- in one of these plays he had an open hole to bounce into but failed to see it.)


- On the ONE remaining carry he made a short gain and was tackled by a LB and safety quickly. Nowhere to go.


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I'll get to the other games after lunch hopefully. But analyzing those 21 carries, I only saw 3 opportunities where he could have possibly done more than he did with the blocking he was given.


Maybe a Fournette or Cook or "RBx" does something magic with those 3 carries, but we're talking about a small amount of opportunity behind some pretty bad blocking in 2016.


Yeldon also had ~8 good runs mixed into those 21 carries including a touchdown that you must consider.

I'll try find it again but I seen a YPC analysis on all the NFL running backs yesterday. They picked each spot in the line like LT-LG-C-RG-RT and showed how many yards they got from each spot.


Turns out Yeldon was well below average running behind the LT-C-RT spots with around 2-3 YPC, where as he was well above league average running behind the LG and RG spots , around 5-6 YPC.

Quote:Which of those doesn't he have?


Actually I can't think of any prospect with all of them.

He probably doesnt meet the two statistical measures he listed, but thats irrelevant since theres guys that amass production all the time despite not being as good as guys with less.

Quote:Tomlinson is also a smaller guy than Fred. 

 

That Fred is bigger, faster, and a deadlier cut back runner than LT speaks to how great Fred was.

 

LT was more a complete back when you factor in receiving. But from a pure runner? Fred was better.

 

 

Aside from maybe Jim Brown, you'd be hard stretched to find someone outside of Duval who says Fred is better pure runner than LT. I'd love to see if you actually could find a non-Jaguars fan saying as much. That said, I do wonder if part of LT's success was the mere fact he had Lorenzo Neal as his FB.

Quote:He probably doesnt meet the two statistical measures he listed, but thats irrelevant since theres guys that amass production all the time despite not being as good as guys with less.

He's the second youngest player to hit 30+ sacks since 1994 or something like mad like that. D'onta Foreman is better though.

Quote:Yes, to be taken #1 overall, a DE basically has to be perfect. My personal opinion is that the #1 overall pick should almost always be used on QB's and LT's. There is definitely no QB's even close to being franchise guys in this draft and I don't see a LT I would take #1 either. In fact, 99% of the time if I had the #1 pick in the draft, I would trade out of the position and accumulate more picks. Someone else can deal with sorting out who should be taken #1 overall. I just don't see any players in this draft that have separated themselves enough from the pack to justify selecting them #1 overall. There are tons of really good players in this draft, but no real standouts.

 

 

You're avoiding the question. If you couldn't trade down, which is very possible, who are you taking #1 overall? I don't want to hear any philosophy regarding trading down... I just want a name. Who are you taking? This only requires a one-word response.

Quote:He's the second youngest player to hit 30+ sacks since 1994 or something like mad like that. D'onta Foreman is better though.

Theres multiple levels to how ridiculous this is, but were talking about the same guy who doesnt want mccaffrey because hes white.

Quote:Aside from maybe Jim Brown, you'd be hard stretched to find someone outside of Duval who says Fred is better pure runner than LT. I'd love to see if you actually could find a non-Jaguars fan saying as much. That said, I do wonder if part of LT's success was the mere fact he had Lorenzo Neal as his FB.

 

I wish I could, but I doubt it. Such is the dilemma that Fred has. He'll need Prisco to really campaign for him if he has any shot at the HoF.

 

There was a run he had against the Texans, its in one of his highlight videos. Do a search for "Fred Taylor Aloha". It's around 1:58 min mark.

 

He cuts to the right (OL was blocking left), then almost immediately cuts left because of a defender. As soon as he makes that cut, another defender comes in from his left and Fred just plants and spins to the left to avoid that defender. He turns the corner and finishes the run with a devastating stiff arm on the corner. This all happens in matter of seconds, one after another.

 

I think this run exemplifies how elite of a runner Fred was. 

 

People talk about Lebron James and call him "Video game James".

 

That's what this run of Fred is to me. You'd be hard pressed to do this on a video game with any RB, much less in real life.

Simply put, all-time LaDanian is in the discussion for top 10. That is, he maybe sneaks into the end of the list.


 

FT unfortunately is not in that conversation, but I think you'd have to put him in the top 15 all-time

Quote:You're avoiding the question. If you couldn't trade down, which is very possible, who are you taking #1 overall? I don't want to hear any philosophy regarding trading down... I just want a name. Who are you taking? This only requires a one-word response.

 

 

Somebody would trade up for him. All it would take would be a swap of first round picks and next's years first. The "trade value chart" means nothing to me, so if the Giants, Packers, Seattle or anyone else offered a swap of first rounders, #1 for their first rounder and their 2018 first rounder, I'd do it. I know I'm supposed to get much more, but I don't care. If they know I wouldn't ask for a mint, I'd get tons of offers.

Quote:Somebody would trade up for him. All it would take would be a swap of first round picks and next's years first. The "trade value chart" means nothing to me, so if the Giants, Packers, Seattle or anyone else offered a swap of first rounders, #1 for their first rounder and their 2018 first rounder, I'd do it. I know I'm supposed to get much more, but I don't care. If they know I wouldn't ask for a mint, I'd get tons of offers.

 

 

Stop avoiding the question and just answer it.

Quote:Stop avoiding the question and just answer it.

 

 

I did. I'd trade down.

Quote:I did. I'd trade down.

Without that option though. I'm just curious who you would draft at #1 spot in the draft. In other words if you could select any player in the draft at #1 who would it be?

He won't answer the question because he knows that no player on the board meets his unreachable checklist standards for a #1 pick. Even when they have everything you can want on a checklist, sometimes they still suck. I was sold on Sam Bradford, I mean SOLD! He had a good arm, threw a real nice looking ball, good decision making, and probably the most accurate college qb i had seen since Philip Rivers. Then he became the Sam Bradford we know today. Injuries aside he just never turned into the player I thought he would. 

Quote:Without that option though. I'm just curious who you would draft at #1 spot in the draft. In other words if you could select any player in the draft at #1 who would it be?

 

 

I know you want some other answer, but I can't give you one because I would get rid of the #1 overall pick. You can say that wouldn't be an option, but the fact is, it's always an option, if the price is right. I would only use the #1 overall pick on a franchise QB or a LT and since there isn't a franchise player at either of those positions in this draft, I cannot keep the #1 overall pick. I can only say that D'Onta Foreman is my top rated player in this draft and Lamp is #2, but I wouldn't use the #1 overall pick on either of those guys. I wouldn't use the #1 overall pick, period. There's always a way. 

Quote:He won't answer the question because he knows that no player on the board meets his unreachable checklist standards for a #1 pick. Even when they have everything you can want on a checklist, sometimes they still suck. I was sold on Sam Bradford, I mean SOLD! He had a good arm, threw a real nice looking ball, good decision making, and probably the most accurate college qb i had seen since Philip Rivers. Then he became the Sam Bradford we know today. Injuries aside he just never turned into the player I thought he would. 

 

 

The last player I can say emphatically that I would've definitely used the #1 pick on was Andrew Luck. I would've traded away our first round pick, our third round pick as well as our first round picks for the following 2 years to get that guy. I was not sold on Bradford at all. I would've taken Earl Thomas. He was the highest rated player on my board when we picked. 

Quote:I know you want some other answer, but I can't give you one because I would get rid of the #1 overall pick. You can say that wouldn't be an option, but the fact is, it's always an option, if the price is right. I would only use the #1 overall pick on a franchise QB or a LT and since there isn't a franchise player at either of those positions in this draft, I cannot keep the #1 overall pick. I can only say that D'Onta Foreman is my top rated player in this draft and Lamp is #2, but I wouldn't use the #1 overall pick on either of those guys. I wouldn't use the #1 overall pick, period. There's always a way.

In other words,,,you would draft Foreman over anybody else in the draft.

Quote:In other words,,,you would draft Foreman over anybody else in the draft.

 

 

Not necessarily. I want him more than any other player in the draft, but if he's slotted to go somewhere in the #35 to #50 range and Lamp is rated as a first rounder, I draft Lamp first and then try to find a way to get Foreman.