Quote:Well said.
Here's something else to consider.
A lot of fans, teams, and analysts give pause at taking Myles Jack as high as 5 since he injured his knee in September. He's at 80% (supposedly according to comments from the Pro day) and was just cleared for lateral movement last week. Most don't expect him to be ready week 1, but feel he should return at some point in the season.
Yet...to hear a lot of Jaguar fans, we're all in on the Dante Fowler train at LEO. My question is, where's the concern for Fowler?
He injured himself in May and didn't even get surgery on the ACL until almost June. An article end of December 2015 quoted Dante saying that he hasn't been cleared yet. Recently, Dave has been quoted as saying that Dante is running and "looks good". From a time table stand point, Dante is only ahead of Jack's "rehab" schedule based on when their injuries occurred by
four months, and that's with an ACL (typically given a recovery of 10-12 months, and that's probably being generous for most) vs. a meniscus (Jack was given 4-6 month time table).
So why is Jack's health a question mark but somehow Dante is "penciled" in?
I think it's because
1. The injury happened a lot earlier for Dante
2. He's already a Jag.
Four months is a long time, a third of the year. Basically a whole football season. It matters, man. Plus, he's already a Jag. Of course there's cause for concern but we have hitched our wagon to him already. We are supposed to have hope in him. If this happened before the draft like Myles Jack, maybe that's different. But he's ours. We didn't draft a risk. Myles would be drafting a risk. But both will be ready by Week 1
I think it's because
1. The injury happened a lot earlier for Dante
2. He's already a Jag.
Four months is a long time, a third of the year. Basically a whole football season. It matters, man. Plus, he's already a Jag. Of course there's cause for concern but we have hitched our wagon to him already. We are supposed to have hope in him. If this happened before the draft like Myles Jack, maybe that's different. But he's ours. We didn't draft a risk. Myles would be drafting a risk. But both will be ready by Week 1
Quote:I think it's because
1. The injury happened a lot earlier for Dante
2. He's already a Jag.
Four months is a long time, a third of the year. Basically a whole football season. It matters, man. Plus, he's already a Jag. Of course there's cause for concern but we have hitched our wagon to him already. We are supposed to have hope in him. If this happened before the draft like Myles Jack, maybe that's different. But he's ours. We didn't draft a risk. Myles would be drafting a risk. But both will be ready by Week 1
I can see #1 but what does #2 have to do with evaluating his worth on the field? The fact that he is already a Jag doesn't make his 'stock' any more valuable. Indeed, just because he was very good in college doesn't automatically guarantee that he will also be excellent in the NFL. He is still an unknown asset at the pro level. All we know about him as a Jag so far is that he only lasted 10 minutes in practice before he was hurt!
Certainly, we're to have hope in him, but I'd caution betting the house on him until we see what he will actually do here.
Quote:I think it's because
1. The injury happened a lot earlier for Dante
2. He's already a Jag.
Four months is a long time, a third of the year. Basically a whole football season. It matters, man. Plus, he's already a Jag. Of course there's cause for concern but we have hitched our wagon to him already. We are supposed to have hope in him. If this happened before the draft like Myles Jack, maybe that's different. But he's ours. We didn't draft a risk. Myles would be drafting a risk. But both will be ready by Week 1
1. The injury happened earlier for Dante, yes. But as I already alluded to, his injury is typically a 12 month recovery time where as Myles is a 4-6 month. Myles is already at the end of that time frame, while Dante is still 2-3 months away from the 12 month mark.
2. That's not what I'm getting at though. It doesn't matter that he's already ours. Yes, we're supposed to "hope" that he comes back healthy. Yes, we're supposed to "hope" that he's an impact player.
But that's not what is happening if you believe the FO and the fans. To quote Dave Caldwell...
"Let's not forget we used a third pick on Dante Fowler, Jr. last year who is a LEO. In our scheme only
one LEO can play on the field at a time, especially in base packages. So we need some depth there behind Dante, and he's doing extremely well"
That's not hoping.
That's completely penciling in Fowler to be a full-time starter without really any other alternative.
Quote:Bosa ran a 4.78 at his pro day. I've narrowed my ideal choice between Bosa and Jack, however, I'm torn on which one I'd pick.
I like Jack and his potential more but Bosa could fill a bigger need.
Don't think they'll both be there anyway.
Caldwell should have an easy selection.
Unless Cleveland doesn't go QB and the tacks don't go Tunsil.
Could get a little murky there...
No, the draft is not "icing on the cake." The team still has significant needs at pass rusher and OTTO. Still very pleased with the haul in free agency and the decisions Caldwell made, despite the criticism from some about not signing Vernon or Ayers. I believe he will get his OTTO (Jack) in the first and his LEO in the 2nd. It wouldn't surprise me if he trades back up into the back of the first or top of the 2nd to get his pass rusher. Hopefully it will be Spence, Ogbah, Lawson or Dodd. If that happens, anything else would be "icing on the cake" as far as I'm concerned.
Quote:I can see #1 but what does #2 have to do with evaluating his worth on the field? The fact that he is already a Jag doesn't make his 'stock' any more valuable. Indeed, just because he was very good in college doesn't automatically guarantee that he will also be excellent in the NFL. He is still an unknown asset at the pro level. All we know about him as a Jag so far is that he only lasted 10 minutes in practice before he was hurt!
Certainly, we're to have hope in him, but I'd caution betting the house on him until we see what he will actually do here.
Man, you guys really love arguing. Im not saying his stock is higher. I guess what I'm saying is... He is an unknown asset, but he's our asset still. We expect him to make a full recovery and be ready week 1. He's progressed well. Yeah, sure it sucks but we've committed 20 million dollars to him. We've got no choice but to be optimistic about him. Drafting another unknown asset in another DE increases our chances of hitting on a player, but is still unknown. If we knew he would tear his ACL, I'm not sure we draft him still. But we did. Myles Jack is still in consideration at 5, but he's still a risk. One unknown has 20 million dollars committed, one doesn't. I want Jack at 5, just stating why I think it's a risk
Quote:1. The injury happened earlier for Dante, yes. But as I already alluded to, his injury is typically a 12 month recovery time where as Myles is a 4-6 month. Myles is already at the end of that time frame, while Dante is still 2-3 months away from the 12 month mark.
2. That's not what I'm getting at though. It doesn't matter that he's already ours. Yes, we're supposed to "hope" that he comes back healthy. Yes, we're supposed to "hope" that he's an impact player.
But that's not what is happening if you believe the FO and the fans. To quote Dave Caldwell...
"Let's not forget we used a third pick on Dante Fowler, Jr. last year who is a LEO. In our scheme only one LEO can play on the field at a time, especially in base packages. So we need some depth there behind Dante, and he's doing extremely well"
That's not hoping.
That's completely penciling in Fowler to be a full-time starter without really any other alternative.
ACLs aren't death sentences anymore. He will be fine. He's had time off. He's gotten bigger and has done as many mental reps as you can. His tear happened months before the season started. Some people read their ACLs in Seasom and start week one of the subsequent season
Read my above post but to expand on this a little... It's no different than drafting a guy and penciling him in as a starter. Especially at 3. Caldwell has seen him as of late. Of course if he underperforms, he could have his spot taken. And if he doesn't have it taken, I'd want to see him battle through growing pains anyway. You draft a guy three, he's your starter. Every year.
Quote:ACLs aren't death sentences anymore. He will be fine.
Sorry, but you just can't simply assume that. Every one is different.
It's right to not expect a lot from Dante this season.
I'd rather he take another year to become who we drafted him to be, rather than never being able to become that guy at all.
Quote:Man, you guys really love arguing. Im not saying his stock is higher. I guess what I'm saying is... He is an unknown asset, but he's our asset still. We expect him to make a full recovery and be ready week 1. He's progressed well. Yeah, sure it sucks but we've committed 20 million dollars to him. We've got no choice but to be optimistic about him. Drafting another unknown asset in another DE increases our chances of hitting on a player, but is still unknown. If we knew he would tear his ACL, I'm not sure we draft him still. But we did. Myles Jack is still in consideration at 5, but he's still a risk. One unknown has 20 million dollars committed, one doesn't. I want Jack at 5, just stating why I think it's a risk
Setting unrealistic expectations is the sure path to failure. Patience is called for here.
I hope Dante is ready to go week 1, if it's not until later, then that's the cards dealt.
The FA Euphoria grips this board every year and calmer voices are dismissed as defeatist.
Time to sit on the shore at sunset and crack open a cold one and wait for the Darft.
HeadSlap
Quote:ACLs aren't death sentences anymore. He will be fine. He's had time off. He's gotten bigger and has done as many mental reps as you can. His tear happened months before the season started. Some people read their ACLs in Seasom and start week one of the subsequent season
Read my above post but to expand on this a little... It's no different than drafting a guy and penciling him in as a starter. Especially at 3. Caldwell has seen him as of late. Of course if he underperforms, he could have his spot taken. And if he doesn't have it taken, I'd want to see him battle through growing pains anyway. You draft a guy three, he's your starter. Every year.
Put it this way, Dante tears his ACL in May of 2015 while in Florida. He's at his current rehab phase, does he go #3 in this draft? And if some reason a team takes that chance, do they still pencil him in as the starter?
It was a mistake that this team didn't have a fall back plan last season after Dante injured himself and relied on an aging Clemons and returning underachieving Branch to cover LEO.
It was also a mistake that this team didn't have a fall back plan last season expecting Sen Marks to be ready by the start of the season (he wasn't).
It will be a mistake if we don't have an alternative other than Fowler.
Right now the alternatives are Davis, who the team kept behind Branch/Clemons despite those their lack of production. Chris Smith who similarly got a shot at LEO and didn't impress last season. And Skuta.
Can Fowler come back strong and live up to Dave's lofty expectations? Yes he can. And that would be great.
But we can't...and shouldn't be relying on him to be our focal point of the defense's pass rush.
No icing here. I'm going to need to see results. Paper championships won't cut it anymore. I'm kinda of tired of the offseason hype train we create for ourselves.
Quote:Sorry, but you just can't simply assume that. Every one is different.
It's right to not expect a lot from Dante this season.
I'd rather he take another year to become who we drafted him to be, rather than never being able to become that guy at all.
Absolutely correct.
Even if he weren't coming off of a torn ACL, the fact is he's still unproven, and every bit the rookie he was last year.
Even if we assume he's completely healthy, even if we think he has limitless potential, he still has to adjust to the pro game. That adjustment may well be seamless and he will have an immediate and major impact for us. But more likely, he has to learn what it takes to be a pro, to beat tackles, TEs and chipping backs. He will have to learn blocking schemes. He will have to learn stunts, etc., He will have to learn to practice and condition his body, eat, etc. He will have to continue to grow into his body.
More likely, he will have to do all of these things before he becomes the kind of player we hope. More likely that will be gradual.
Quote:No. The first three rounds of the draft ARE the cake.
So True !!
Until it translates to performance and wins, nothing is icing on the cake. I don't care who we signed or draft, the defense isn't fixed until we see it on the field, not on paper.
Quote:Most don't expect him to be ready week 1
That's weird, I haven't seen a single source that says he won't be ready by week 1.
I've seen a bunch that say he should be ready before the preseason.
If you draft Jack, pass rusher, center, and defensive back depth I call it a full roster ready to compete at a high level. We never really had a roster to compete with, after the draft I believe we will have a roster that can compete to win. There are no more excuses if we can't be better than .500 this year.
Championships/games are won in the trenches. Don't remember the last time we consistently won one or both sides of the LOS. Dave needs to bring in a couple more pass rushers, and a LG/C. If he does that, I will feel pretty confident we can win the AFCS. Adding Beachum and Jackson, to go along with getting a healthy Linder, Fowler, and Marks back, I think we should definitely see some improvements. That'll improve our running game, Bortles can stay in the pocket and pick apart defenses, and our secondary won't be exposed as long as it was last season.
I think having solid offensive and defensive lines in the most important things to have in the NFL, other than a franchise qb, and we have that.
LT- Joeckel or Beachum
LG- Cann or Beachum or rookie
C- Cann or Bowanko or rookie
RG- Linder
RT- Parnell
LEO/Pass rushers- Fowler, Davis, Smith, a couple rookies and hopefully a veteran
DT- Marks, Jackson, Miller, Bennett, Jones (fricking stacked here)
DE- Odrick, Alualu
Just a couple pieces away...
Quote:If you draft Jack, pass rusher, center, and defensive back depth I call it a full roster ready to compete at a high level. We never really had a roster to compete with, after the draft I believe we will have a roster that can compete to win. There are no more excuses if we can't be better than .500 this year.
We would also need another OTTO. Jack would fit in well at MLB in this scheme, but we would still need an edge setter at OTTO.
I'd agree though, pass rusher × 2, OTTO, ILB, maybe another CB, Kicker, LG/C, and maybe another TE. We have 8 picks to address these issues, except maybe for kicker.