Quote:Exactly.
I majored in Business, got a BBA at UNF with a focus in accounting. I never worked a day as an accountant, I'd rather stick knitting needles in my ears. After a few months of floundering about, looking for a job in accounting I didn't want, I signed up for an intensive computer programming training course (8 hours per day, 5 days a week for 9 months), got an internship with the COJ that led to a 20 year career in their IT division. Ironically, the reason I was chosen for the internship was my accounting training, as they needed analysts for their financial systems - budget, payroll and accounting.
Despite the more pragmatic benefits from the business and accounting courses, I cherished the history, humanities, art and music appreciation, and English courses I was required to take. I feel sorry for anyone not exposed to more than whatever knowledge they need to earn a living.
In other news student loan debt in this country exceeds all combined consumer debt while only 30% of the population have degrees.
Half the country is now proposing confiscatory taxation to forgive said debt and raise the next generation of art history majors.
Quote:In other news student loan debt in this country exceeds all combined consumer debt while only 30% of the population have degrees.
Half the country is now proposing confiscatory taxation to forgive said debt and raise the next generation of art history majors.
In what way does the above disprove anything about the value of a well rounded education?
As someone who has worked extensively with young African Americans here in Jacksonville I think that one reason they may be drawn to the aforementioned jobs is that those are the jobs that they identify as making a difference in their communities.
Most of my students were more likely to have direct contact with childcare workers or a social worker than, say, a mechanical engineer.
Oh, and for the record, I have heard of people saying that young black students who study are called names such as Uncle Tom etc, but I myself, and my friends who taught in the Jax inner city, do not recall this being a prevelant thing in our classes. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that my inner city students were significantly more inclusive and accepting of each other than my suburban students (who for the record aren't that bad either)
Quote:As someone who has worked extensively with young African Americans here in Jacksonville I think that one reason they may be drawn to the aforementioned jobs is that those are the jobs that they identify as making a difference in their communities.
Most of my students were more likely to have direct contact with childcare workers or a social worker than, say, a mechanical engineer.
Oh, and for the record, I have heard of people saying that young black students who study are called names such as Uncle Tom etc, but I myself, and my friends who taught in the Jax inner city, do not recall this being a prevelant thing in our classes. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that my inner city students were significantly more inclusive and accepting of each other than my suburban students (who for the record aren't that bad either)
My comment about Uncle Tom came from one of the comments from the article where someone said that they were subjected to that when they went to college and others within their circle were as well. I don't know what part of the country they were from but I imagine it might be more prevalent in bigger cities than Jacksonville.
I remember the last election cycle when a black man from SC (IIRC) was voted in as a Republican Senator or Representative and people on social media were calling him Uncle Tom. I don't understand the mindset of people who say things like that.
Quote:In what way does the above disprove anything about the value of a well rounded education?
A well rounded education is all fine and good. If it doesnt correlate to being able to provide financially then why pay for it? We have miraculous internet summoning devices that now allow access to virtually all information. Pat for that which you cant learn on your own that leads to a marketable skill set.
Quote:My comment about Uncle Tom came from one of the comments from the article where someone said that they were subjected to that when they went to college and others within their circle were as well. I don't know what part of the country they were from but I imagine it might be more prevalent in bigger cities than Jacksonville.
I remember the last election cycle when a black man from SC (IIRC) was voted in as a Republican Senator or Representative and people on social media were calling him Uncle Tom. I don't understand the mindset of people who say things like that.
Unfortunately people associate politic decisions with ignorance. If they feel differently about an issue, it's easier to make the assumption that the other person is simply foolish and doesn't realize what he/she really wants, than it is for people to accept that others view things and value things in very different ways. Both sides are extremely guilty of this.
Quote:My comment about Uncle Tom came from one of the comments from the article where someone said that they were subjected to that when they went to college and others within their circle were as well. I don't know what part of the country they were from but I imagine it might be more prevalent in bigger cities than Jacksonville.
I remember the last election cycle when a black man from SC (IIRC) was voted in as a Republican Senator or Representative and people on social media were calling him Uncle Tom. I don't understand the mindset of people who say things like that.
Barrack obama was said not to be "black enough" in a macro sense black has been defined as poor and unable to perform certain tasks by... You guessed it.. Black people.
Quote:Barrack obama was said not to be "black enough" in a macro sense black has been defined as poor and unable to perform certain tasks by... You guessed it.. Black people.
Yea, I'm not sure that was an overriding sentiment because African Americans turned out with record turnout crossing the 60% threshold. The highest since 1964. 60%, by the way, is higher than the general population turnout in those elections (2008 - 57%, 2012 - 55%)
Oh and Blacks voted for Obama at a rate of 95 and 93% respectively. That aligns with political affiliation (Democrat, independent leaning Democrats and strongly independent per Joint Center for political and economic studies)
That was a narrative used in the 08 primary. One black congressman went so far as to insinuate bill clinton had been with more black women than barry.
Quote:A well rounded education is all fine and good. If it doesnt correlate to being able to provide financially then why pay for it? We have miraculous internet summoning devices that now allow access to virtually all information. Pat for that which you cant learn on your own that leads to a marketable skill set.
If you don't know what to search for, what good is the internet?
I don't know if or when you attended college, but all those things you say don't help you financially help you become a more insightful, inquisitive person.
Quote:That was a narrative used in the 08 primary. One black congressman went so far as to insinuate bill clinton had been with more black women than barry.
For example, one thing I learned from a political science professor is how to distinguish between noise and reality. Sure, a black congressman may have said something like what you posted, but the reality is the overwhelming majority of African Americans disagreed.
Quote:If you don't know what to search for, what good is the internet?
I don't know if or when you attended college, but all those things you say don't help you financially help you become a more insightful, inquisitive person.
For example, one thing I learned from a political science professor is how to distinguish between noise and reality. Sure, a black congressman may have said something like what you posted, but the reality is the overwhelming majority of African Americans disagreed.
Wrong again roller, and on both counts.
First, insight is wonderful. 1.) there are tons of life experiences and other resources that can help someone develop insight that don't cost 25k a year, and 2.) if that Insight doesn't lead someone to make a competent cost risk analysis about the value of their education then what's the point? The stats show that in the arena of paying back student loans right now even our college graduates are struggling in that area and when it comes to actually being able to save money for retirement the entire system needs to be overhauled.
In reality, the system that we are currently dumping billions of dollars into on an annual basis is based on a Victorian era view of education where brick and mortar institutions where the sole arbiters of distributing knowledge. The idea that we would continue to over invest capital in a system that isn't carrying its weight through return on investment while increasing tuition by double digits every year is asinine.
As to the concept of Black aspiration being looked down upon in black precincts you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. You can choose to ignore the 08 primary but that doesn't negate the fact that When Obama began making a push for the Democratic nomination that the charge was leveled that he wasn't BLACK ENOUGH.
For all his faults on policy Barrack Obama was able to overcome this and dominated in the Black community to secure the nomination but that doesn't negate the fact that a.) the charge was made, and made by people pretty high up, and that b.) initially he found himself upside down in the black community that initially viewed the Clinton Machine as more "Down with the Struggle."
Quote:Wrong again roller, and on both counts.
First, insight is wonderful. 1.) there are tons of life experiences and other resources that can help someone develop insight that don't cost 25k a year, and 2.) if that Insight doesn't lead someone to make a competent cost risk analysis about the value of their education then what's the point? The stats show that in the arena of paying back student loans right now even our college graduates are struggling in that area and when it comes to actually being able to save money for retirement the entire system needs to be overhauled.
In reality, the system that we are currently dumping billions of dollars into on an annual basis is based on a Victorian era view of education where brick and mortar institutions where the sole arbiters of distributing knowledge. The idea that we would continue to over invest capital in a system that isn't carrying its weight through return on investment while increasing tuition by double digits every year is asinine.
As to the concept of Black aspiration being looked down upon in black precincts you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. You can choose to ignore the 08 primary but that doesn't negate the fact that When Obama began making a push for the Democratic nomination that the charge was leveled that he wasn't BLACK ENOUGH.
For all his faults on policy Barrack Obama was able to overcome this and dominated in the Black community to secure the nomination but that doesn't negate the fact that a.) the charge was made, and made by people pretty high up, and that b.) initially he found himself upside down in the black community that initially viewed the Clinton Machine as more "Down with the Struggle."
I think that all politics involves charges that individuals are not "enough ________" in some capacity or another.
For example. Whites see Barack Obama as black, period, not mixed. This was more a question of skin color as opposed to where he stood on positions. In the same vein, there have been many charges over the past years that Republicans, such as John McCain were "RINOs" Republicans in name only. If you asked a Democrat, McCain was Republican, based on his party affiliation as opposed to being viewed on where he stood on issues important to Republicans. And again, McCain pushed through and received the overwhelming number of Republican votes even though these charges were made and many people voted for others in the primary.
Youre right all politics is contentious. In the case of McCain he was charged with not having strong partisan credentials. He was able to convince enough republicans that he was "electable" coupled with mike huckabee syphoning enough evangelical and conservative votes away from governor romney.
Thats a wholly different concept than the idea that if you go to school, educate yourself, learn the queens english and dress well that you are a sell out. If you "talk proper" in school you can be called a white kid. Bill Clinton was dubbed the first black president because he was fatherless, smoked weed, cheated on his wife, and was alergic to the truth and that label was cheered i. The black precincts.
The current pop culture definition of BLACKNESS is a negative caricature that black America blindly follows.
Quote:Youre right all politics is contentious. In the case of McCain he was charged with not having strong partisan credentials. He was able to convince enough republicans that he was "electable" coupled with mike huckabee syphoning enough evangelical and conservative votes away from governor romney.
Thats a wholly different concept than the idea that if you go to school, educate yourself, learn the queens english and dress well that you are a sell out. If you "talk proper" in school you can be called a white kid. Bill Clinton was dubbed the first black president because he was fatherless, smoked weed, cheated on his wife, and was alergic to the truth and that label was cheered i. The black precincts.
The current pop culture definition of BLACKNESS is a negative caricature that black America blindly follows.
Again, i don't know if you saw my earlier post, but I am not sure that is as prevalent as people make it out to be. In my years of teaching this sentiment was few and far between.
Oh, and in fairness, Toni Morrison dubbed Clinton the "first black president," not because he cheated on his wife and smoked weed, but rather, to quote her, "Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing,
McDonald's-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas"
1.) its something i experienced personally.
2.) go look at black comedy of the time and general commentary.
3.) look at Russel Wilson.
4.) look at anyone audacious enough to be a black conservative.
Quote:1.) its something i experienced personally.
2.) go look at black comedy of the time and general commentary.
3.) look at Russel Wilson.
4.) look at anyone audacious enough to be a black conservative.
I am not trying to convince you that your opinions on the subject are wrong. I am sure you have your opinions for any number of reasons (Russell Wilson for example). As I pointed out in my earlier post, to believe that someone holds a certain position due to ignorance is presumptuous and elitist. I believe that in your experiences young black students who study are considered "white" and black people liked Clinton because he cheated on Hillary. I was simply posting in an attempt to say that in my experiences, which include years of working within the black community and almost always being the only white person in a room presented me with different experiences that might present a different viewpoint.
I am not positive of too many things in this world, but I am positive that an individuals experiences (yours or mine) is not enough to paint a complete picture of any issue. I will be the first to admit that perhaps my experiences are the outlier, though not without also considering that yours may be as well. Though, in fairness we can only understand issues through our own lenses.
That being said, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with, before I made the mistake of arguing over politics :teehee:, was to point out that I think a lot of young black students take jobs like social worker and child care worker because they identify these jobs as playing key roles in their community. That, in my experience, appears to be a more likely explanation (Occam's razor) than some of the other suggestions presented previously in this thread.
Quote:let me guess... Union?
It was management positions. Unions typically don't represent Unions. However...it is possible if he had some representation he would have had a voice in the matter, and not just take what was given.
A good guess would have been typical good ole boy network?
Quote:I am not trying to convince you that your opinions on the subject are wrong. I am sure you have your opinions for any number of reasons (Russell Wilson for example). As I pointed out in my earlier post, to believe that someone holds a certain position due to ignorance is presumptuous and elitist. I believe that in your experiences young black students who study are considered "white" and black people liked Clinton because he cheated on Hillary. I was simply posting in an attempt to say that in my experiences, which include years of working within the black community and almost always being the only white person in a room presented me with different experiences that might present a different viewpoint.
I am not positive of too many things in this world, but I am positive that an individuals experiences (yours or mine) is not enough to paint a complete picture of any issue. I will be the first to admit that perhaps my experiences are the outlier, though not without also considering that yours may be as well. Though, in fairness we can only understand issues through our own lenses.
That being said, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with, before I made the mistake of arguing over politics :teehee:, was to point out that I think a lot of young black students take jobs like social worker and child care worker because they identify these jobs as playing key roles in their community. That, in my experience, appears to be a more likely explanation (Occam's razor) than some of the other suggestions presented previously in this thread.
As a member of the "black" community i can share my personal experience on the matter. When i was a kid i was told by my friends that i was a White Kid because of the way i talked because i tried in school and because i didnt drink etc. The most profound and formative viewpoint that i had as a child was hoelw stupid it was for a race to self define based on a lack of achievement. I have been told more by other people of color what i could and could not achieve than any white person would dare mention.
With Russell Wilson you have a qb that stands aloof from some of his fellow teammates because he carries himself like the head of a franchise. Think about that.
Bill Cosby was demonized in the black community for calling people to action and taking personal responsibility.
The term POOR BLACK MAN has become a subconscious narrative that is almost universally accepted. One of the reasons you dont see as many black males aspiring to traditional commerce is because we have conditioned outselves to think that we either have to sling crack rock or have a wicked jump shot to be successful and if we are seen as mainstream or working for the man we can be called sellouts in our own community.
Quote:As a member of the "black" community i can share my personal experience on the matter. When i was a kid i was told by my friends that i was a White Kid because of the way i talked because i tried in school and because i didnt drink etc. The most profound and formative viewpoint that i had as a child was hoelw stupid it was for a race to self define based on a lack of achievement. I have been told more by other people of color what i could and could not achieve than any white person would dare mention.
With Russell Wilson you have a qb that stands aloof from some of his fellow teammates because he carries himself like the head of a franchise. Think about that.
Bill Cosby was demonized in the black community for calling people to action and taking personal responsibility.
The term POOR BLACK MAN has become a subconscious narrative that is almost universally accepted. One of the reasons you dont see as many black males aspiring to traditional commerce is because we have conditioned outselves to think that we either have to sling crack rock or have a wicked jump shot to be successful and if we are seen as mainstream or working for the man we can be called sellouts in our own community.
Again, I believe you, you don't have to continue to try and convince me. Like most people, we have had different experiences. I'm sorry that you were teased and called white. That's really sad, but again, I believe you. I'm sorry Russell Wilson is dealing with whatever issues he is dealing with. My experience,however, has been very different. Which is to say, everyone approaches these situations through their own experiences.
We are going to have to agree to disagree, though, I am not really disagreeing with you, just presenting my experiences.
Quote:Wrong again roller, and on both counts.
First, insight is wonderful. 1.) there are tons of life experiences and other resources that can help someone develop insight that don't cost 25k a year, and 2.) if that Insight doesn't lead someone to make a competent cost risk analysis about the value of their education then what's the point? The stats show that in the arena of paying back student loans right now even our college graduates are struggling in that area and when it comes to actually being able to save money for retirement the entire system needs to be overhauled.
In reality, the system that we are currently dumping billions of dollars into on an annual basis is based on a Victorian era view of education where brick and mortar institutions where the sole arbiters of distributing knowledge. The idea that we would continue to over invest capital in a system that isn't carrying its weight through return on investment while increasing tuition by double digits every year is asinine.
As to the concept of Black aspiration being looked down upon in black precincts you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. You can choose to ignore the 08 primary but that doesn't negate the fact that When Obama began making a push for the Democratic nomination that the charge was leveled that he wasn't BLACK ENOUGH.
For all his faults on policy Barrack Obama was able to overcome this and dominated in the Black community to secure the nomination but that doesn't negate the fact that a.) the charge was made, and made by people pretty high up, and that b.) initially he found himself upside down in the black community that initially viewed the Clinton Machine as more "Down with the Struggle."
I agree, the cost of a college education is too high, and I understand it isn't appropriate or necessary for everyone. But society needs people with an understanding and appreciation of more than just what puts money in their pocket.
Yes, the charge was made, but to what end? Obama received overwhelming support from African-Americans. Just because a few said he isn't "black enough" doesn't mean it's the prevailing opinion.