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I have a scientific question.  

 

In the case of a controlled experiment, where all the inputs and processes are completely controlled, if you can repeat the experiment with exactly the same inputs and processes, and absolutely nothing is different from any other time you ran the experiment, will you always achieve the exact same result?  

If everything is completely controlled and completely the same then yes, the result should be the same. 

Quote:If everything is completely controlled and completely the same then yes, the result should be the same. 

 

So if we could rewind time, that is, go back in time, and re-start forward, then what happens after that would be exactly the same thing that happened the first time.   I say that because the identical circumstances would exist as before.   Lincoln would still get assassinated, WWII would still happen, you would still be born, you would still do whatever you did "the first time," you would meet the same people, you would marry the same person, and nothing would change, because all the exact same circumstances would exist.   And the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, right?  

 

And the ultimate conclusion we can draw is that the future is set in stone, and has been determined from the time of the big bang.  Because there is only one set of circumstances that exist right now, therefore, there is only one future that exists.   

 

But that all depends on the answer to the first post.   If everything is completely controlled and completely the same, will the result always be the same?    I think people will rebel against this line of reasoning because it implies that we don't really have free will.   If the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, then we will always make the exact same decisions and take the exact same actions.    Therefore free will is an illusion. 

 

Someone made a big soup and put a spoon in it and stirred it.   The vegetables all think they are swimming, but in reality, they are not.   They are just being forced along by the laws of nature. 

Whoa, that's deep. I'm not sure I'd compare life to a great big scientific experiment but that's just me. We have choices in life and I don't think they're pre-determined or would be duplicated exactly if we were to do it all over again.

Quote:So if we could rewind time, that is, go back in time, and re-start forward, then what happens after that would be exactly the same thing that happened the first time.   I say that because the identical circumstances would exist as before.   Lincoln would still get assassinated, WWII would still happen, you would still be born, you would still do whatever you did "the first time," you would meet the same people, you would marry the same person, and nothing would change, because all the exact same circumstances would exist.   And the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, right?  

 

And the ultimate conclusion we can draw is that the future is set in stone, and has been determined from the time of the big bang.  Because there is only one set of circumstances that exist right now, therefore, there is only one future that exists.   

 

But that all depends on the answer to the first post.   If everything is completely controlled and completely the same, will the result always be the same?    I think people will rebel against this line of reasoning because it implies that we don't really have free will.   If the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, then we will always make the exact same decisions and take the exact same actions.    Therefore free will is an illusion. 

 

Someone made a big soup and put a spoon in it and stirred it.   The vegetables all think they are swimming, but in reality, they are not.   They are just being forced along by the laws of nature. 

With this thought process, would that suggest that the people rebelling against the 'lack of free will' know their future/fate?..

 

I know it's all predetermined, and that everything has it's pattern woven in, but the people who are living it at the time don't know that their paths have been laid out due to the fact that they haven't lived it yet? For instance, I would still have to marry my ex-wife, because I don't know any different, right?..

Quote:I have a scientific question.  

 

In the case of a controlled experiment, where all the inputs and processes are completely controlled, if you can repeat the experiment with exactly the same inputs and processes, and absolutely nothing is different from any other time you ran the experiment, will you always achieve the exact same result?  

 

How many times are you going to ask this question? We answered it the same last time.

Quote:How many times are you going to ask this question? We answered it the same last time.

:teehee:  :teehee:

Quote:So if we could rewind time, that is, go back in time, and re-start forward, then what happens after that would be exactly the same thing that happened the first time.   I say that because the identical circumstances would exist as before.   Lincoln would still get assassinated, WWII would still happen, you would still be born, you would still do whatever you did "the first time," you would meet the same people, you would marry the same person, and nothing would change, because all the exact same circumstances would exist.   And the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, right?  

 

The same exact circumstances always produce the same result.  But when you add variables, you get different results.  Humans are variables.

That's an extremely articulate and well thought out post. But it's really the question of the unknown because we don't really  know. A gal once said to me "What is meant to be, will be. We just don't know what's meant to be just yet!"

In theory yes, in practice no. (But, if you had access to a frictionless vacuum that was unaffected by gravitational and magnetic forces we could come really, really close.)

DF is correct.  And if you think you have free will, there is no difference between if you do or don't.

Quote:DF is correct.  And if you think you have free will, there is no difference between if you do or don't.

 

I think this ^ is a very important point.   Even if we think there is only one possible future, and it is inevitable, and even if we believe that free will is an illusion, what does that mean for us in terms of how we act?   We can't just lie down in a field of flowers and "let things happen."   Even if we believe in predestination, and that our fate is sealed from the time of the big bang, I don't see how that belief can change our behavior at all.   We still have to act as if we have free will.   Because even if we believe in predestination, then is it not also predestined that we struggle, that we make choices (even if those choices are predestined)?   We still struggle to achieve, we still struggle to survive, because those struggles are predestined.  

 

So what have I achieved with this line of reasoning, that free will is an illusion?   Anything?    I've thought about this theory for a while, and so far, all it is is an interesting thought.   It doesn't contradict any religion, It doesn't change any behavior, so what does it all mean? 

 

I explained all this to my wife, and she asked me, so if everything is predestined, and all our thoughts and actions are set from the time of the big bang, and free will is an illusion, does this mean Hitler is not to blame for killing all those people?  After all, his free will would be an illusion, too.   Hitler was simply acting according to the laws of nature and his existence and his actions were created at the time of the big bang.   Right?  If I had no free will, then Hitler had no free will, either, right?  

 

The only response I can come up with is that while theoretically, things are inevitable, and free will is an illusion, we still have to hold people responsible for their actions, because the very act of holding people responsible is part of our survival instinct and holding people responsible is an act that is also predestined from the time of the big bang.  

 

So what is the ultimate meaning of all this thought?   Nothing?   So far, just an interesting thought. 

This is why philosophy degrees are worthless.

This is a firegus thread isn't it?

Quote:So if we could rewind time, that is, go back in time, and re-start forward, then what happens after that would be exactly the same thing that happened the first time.   I say that because the identical circumstances would exist as before.   Lincoln would still get assassinated, WWII would still happen, you would still be born, you would still do whatever you did "the first time," you would meet the same people, you would marry the same person, and nothing would change, because all the exact same circumstances would exist.   And the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, right?  

 

And the ultimate conclusion we can draw is that the future is set in stone, and has been determined from the time of the big bang.  Because there is only one set of circumstances that exist right now, therefore, there is only one future that exists.   

 

But that all depends on the answer to the first post.   If everything is completely controlled and completely the same, will the result always be the same?    I think people will rebel against this line of reasoning because it implies that we don't really have free will.   If the exact same circumstances always produce the exact same result, then we will always make the exact same decisions and take the exact same actions.    Therefore free will is an illusion. 

 

Someone made a big soup and put a spoon in it and stirred it.   The vegetables all think they are swimming, but in reality, they are not.   They are just being forced along by the laws of nature. 

Have you been listening to a podcast called Hello Internet? Because they had a discussion on this very subject that included many of the same points you are making here. And then as well as now I much agree with the point of view you have here; free will is essentially an illusion caused by the fact we have not the mental capacity to understand the sheer vastness of the universe we live in. But I also believe that this is irrelevant to almost every thing we do.

 

The thought I had about this is about the holodeck from Star Trek. In Star Trek the holodeck is a perfect simulation of normal life right down to the dangers people face. It's even stated outright that if you turn the safety protocol off, holographic bullets are just as deadly as the real thing (Picard does this in First Contact). Now suppose I take you out of your normal life, stick you in a holodeck without you knowing about it and let you live there for the rest of your life. the simulation is perfect, but aside from yourself, it's completely fake. You eventually die in the simulation and I then I turn the whole thing off.

 

Of course this would have an impact on the people that know you, but for you, nothing would change. You'd never know about the simulation or the fact most of your life decisions were irrelevant. And it's the same with free will; the fact free will is an illusion is something we simply can not comprehend on an innate level because we have monkey brains that only very recently learned to do more than count to ten.

Quote:Have you been listening to a podcast called Hello Internet? Because they had a discussion on this very subject that included many of the same points you are making here. And then as well as now I much agree with the point of view you have here; free will is essentially an illusion caused by the fact we have not the mental capacity to understand the sheer vastness of the universe we live in. But I also believe that this is irrelevant to almost every thing we do.

 

 

No, I've never heard that podcast.   These thoughts came to me on my own.   I later investigated and found out I was just thinking about an issue that has been debated for centuries by philosophers, most often called "causal determinism."  

 

I was thinking about tiny little things that can change your life completely.  You're driving along, you come to a fork in the road, you choose one road or the other, and a mile down the road a car runs a red light and kills you.   What caused you to choose that path?   Pure luck?  Or was there some reason?   Nothing happens for no reason at all.  Someone told you to go that way?   Or you thought that road was more scenic and you like scenery?  And what caused that guy to run that red light?   Is there a long unbroken string of causes that stretches all the way back to the beginning of space and time?  Is anything truly random?   Or is everything caused by something else? 

 

If you think humans have free will, then you have to think that there is something inside us that has nothing to do with the laws of the universe.  To believe in free will, you have to think there is something inside of us that operates independently of the laws of the universe.   Because if absolutely everything that happens is subject to the laws of nature, then everything has a cause, and if everything is caused by something else, there are no spontaneous actions, only those that are caused by something else. 

 

And so on and so on and so on.  But in the end, it all doesn't mean anything in terms of how you live your life.  It's just an amusing thought, an empty exercise, like listening to music or playing chess. 

Read up on Chaos theory. I think this applies to what you are asking.

Quote:The same exact circumstances always produce the same result.  But when you add variables, you get different results.  Humans are variables.

 

Exactly.  While Marty is attempting to sound intellectual, he asks but then diverts from the "completely controlled" vs "variable" concept.

 

I think this is known as speaking from both sides of ones mouth.

Quote:The same exact circumstances always produce the same result.  But when you add variables, you get different results.  Humans are variables.

 

 

Quote:Read up on Chaos theory. I think this applies to what you are asking.

 

 

Quote:Exactly.  While Marty is attempting to sound intellectual, he asks but then diverts from the "completely controlled" vs "variable" concept.

 

I think this is known as speaking from both sides of ones mouth.

 

Humans are not variables they are entropy.  Marty isn't saying anything different than what the second law of thermodynamics already describes.  Most scientists believe that entropy (or complexity) in the universe has been increasing ever since the big bang (or whatever happened).  If you could reverse time the complexity or entropy in the universe would decrease until you reached the initial conditions where no stars or planets have formed and not a single human existed.  At this point, the universe is incredibly simplistic, yet contains the entirety of the timeline of the universe encoded inside it (as well as your own personal history). In other words you can replicate the entire universe again as it is exists today with the initial conditions just by adding time.  There are no other variables to consider.  If you think you would get a different result, why?  What has changed? You don't have to believe it, but it's a pretty well established concept and has no bearing on real life (as far as I'm concerned).  

Quote:Read up on Chaos theory. I think this applies to what you are asking.

Came to say this