Quote:JJ I get that accountants are more skilled and therefore will be remunerated better. But why should any job pay poverty wages? Why would you want people to be in poverty.
As for accountants I'm lucky to be part of a profession which restricts the labour market via professional bodies. Also not having free market immigration because there are millions of accountants in the likes of India who are also highly educated.
You really don't get the point that fast food jobs are/were not intended to be a career for most people. I worked in fast food when I was a teenager, mainly to put gas in my truck and have money to do things that I wanted to do. They didn't pay me what I considered "poverty wages" because at the time, I had no debt and really not a lot of responsibility (I was still in high school). It wasn't the first "job" that I had and I personally went from "flipping burgers" to being an assistant manager in a very short period of time. Even then I never wanted it to be a career, so I left the job after gaining some experience and moved on.
My point is, you see many adults that are interviewed when they are protesting for higher pay, and many of them state that they have been doing the job for
years with little to no pay increase. I put the blame on them since the job requires very few skills, but does teach some skills that could lead to a better job somewhere else. Perhaps they fail to put any effort into improving their situation?
Quote:There's a point being missed here as we discuss fast food jobs... the flight of manufacturing from the usa to foreign countries has created a stifled job market. Yes, prior to nafta, fast food and the service industry were mainly for kids.
Things done gone up and changed. You can't have an honest discussion of wages until you at least recognize the current situation. There are studies that show the average age of these workers is no longer in their teens or early 20s any more.
That's a problem for this country, no matter your political leaning...
I get your point, but why is there such a "flight of manufacturing" from the U.S. to other countries? Yes, labor cost is certainly one factor, but it is not THE sole factor. Regulation and taxation has much to do with it as well.
Quote:You really don't get the point that fast food jobs are/were not intended to be a career for most people. I worked in fast food when I was a teenager, mainly to put gas in my truck and have money to do things that I wanted to do. They didn't pay me what I considered "poverty wages" because at the time, I had no debt and really not a lot of responsibility (I was still in high school). It wasn't the first "job" that I had and I personally went from "flipping burgers" to being an assistant manager in a very short period of time. Even then I never wanted it to be a career, so I left the job after gaining some experience and moved on.
My point is, you see many adults that are interviewed when they are protesting for higher pay, and many of them state that they have been doing the job for years with little to no pay increase. I put the blame on them since the job requires very few skills, but does teach some skills that could lead to a better job somewhere else. Perhaps they fail to put any effort into improving their situation?
I get your point, but why is there such a "flight of manufacturing" from the U.S. to other countries? Yes, labor cost is certainly one factor, but it is not THE sole factor. Regulation and taxation has much to do with it as well.
Yeah, there are indeed multiple factors. Cost being the biggest. There is a cost to labor, obviously. And there is a cost to regulations as well as taxes.
The goal of business is to reduce costs as much as possible.
But I ask you a rhetorical question, which cost is the highest? It's labor. In most industries it is labor.
Regulations and taxes, yes. But I'm my opinion, and I think in most economists research, the flight of jobs overseas is based on cutting labor costs first.
Quote:Yeah, there are indeed multiple factors. Cost being the biggest. There is a cost to labor, obviously. And there is a cost to regulations as well as taxes.
The goal of business is to reduce costs as much as possible.
But I ask you a rhetorical question, which cost is the highest? It's labor. In most industries it is labor.
Regulations and taxes, yes. But I'm my opinion, and I think in most economists research, the flight of jobs overseas is based on cutting labor costs first.
Cutting cost across the board is usually a factor.
To answer your question, and this is probably going to change the topic of discussion, yes the largest cost is labor. However, I'll ask you this. Why is the labor cost driven so high? Could it be that unions cause the labor cost to go up?
Quote:You really don't get the point that fast food jobs are/were not intended to be a career for most people. I worked in fast food when I was a teenager, mainly to put gas in my truck and have money to do things that I wanted to do. They didn't pay me what I considered "poverty wages" because at the time, I had no debt and really not a lot of responsibility (I was still in high school). It wasn't the first "job" that I had and I personally went from "flipping burgers" to being an assistant manager in a very short period of time. Even then I never wanted it to be a career, so I left the job after gaining some experience and moved on.
My point is, you see many adults that are interviewed when they are protesting for higher pay, and many of them state that they have been doing the job for years with little to no pay increase. I put the blame on them since the job requires very few skills, but does teach some skills that could lead to a better job somewhere else. Perhaps they fail to put any effort into improving their situation?
I get your point, but why is there such a "flight of manufacturing" from the U.S. to other countries? Yes, labor cost is certainly one factor, but it is not THE sole factor. Regulation and taxation has much to do with it as well.
Yeah yeah loads of opportunities to advance in the US, one of the least socially mobile countries in the developed world (I believe the UK is the worst).
If the jobs are meant for teenagers and low wages why do they hire adults? Should builders get paid next to nothing too, very low skilled stuff most of the jobs. Drivers should get paid nothing too - teenagers could do that job as well.How skilled are a lot of office employees?
Quote:Yeah yeah loads of opportunities to advance in the US, one of the least socially mobile countries in the developed world (I believe the UK is the worst).
If the jobs are meant for teenagers and low wages why do they hire adults? Should builders get paid next to nothing too, very low skilled stuff most of the jobs. Drivers should get paid nothing too - teenagers could do that job as well.How skilled are a lot of office employees?
I strongly disagree this is a culture that is difficult to achieve social upwards mobility.
Quote:I strongly disagree this is a culture that is difficult to achieve social upwards mobility.
Statistics say otherwise. I believe UK wasthe worse then Italy followed by the USA.
Quote:Statistics say otherwise. I believe UK wasthe worse then Italy followed by the USA.
You can make statistics say anything. The reality is our poor start out better then the majority of the rest of the world. We have more access to education welfare and assistance both private and public for anyone that truley wants to move upward to do so.
Quote:You can make statistics say anything. The reality is our poor start out better then the majority of the rest of the world. We have more access to education welfare and assistance both private and public for anyone that truley wants to move upward to do so.
Born on third base and act like they struck out.
Quote:Yeah yeah loads of opportunities to advance in the US, one of the least socially mobile countries in the developed world (I believe the UK is the worst).
If the jobs are meant for teenagers and low wages why do they hire adults? Should builders get paid next to nothing too, very low skilled stuff most of the jobs. Drivers should get paid nothing too - teenagers could do that job as well.How skilled are a lot of office employees?
Explain the first part, please, with these statistics.
If a job is intended for an adult but hires a teen, does that mean it isn't intended for adults? The reality is that teenagers don't want to do those jobs. Besides, a job generally wants someone with work experience before they're hired. Whether a job is too difficult for the teen is one thing, but they also want someone reliable and experienced. Teens don't fit that criteria. Anyone with any amount of experience can typically come in and work in fast food.
Google says drivers (taxi / chauffeur) make $12.12 / hr. That doesn't help your argument when a teen can apply in retail and get about the same.
It also says construction workers make around $16.43 / hr.
Not sure what that last post was trying to prove. But why do you want adults to earn below the poverty line. Would you rather the government paid them welfare to cover the lack of pay from the big corporate?
Quote:Not sure what that last post was trying to prove. But why do you want adults to earn below the poverty line. Would you rather the government paid them welfare to cover the lack of pay from the big corporate?
He was just blowing up your silly statements that construction workers, and drivers are low skilled workers on the same level as fast food workers. I'm guessing you've never worked construction, to call it low skill is pretty laughable.
Quote:Cutting cost across the board is usually a factor.
To answer your question, and this is probably going to change the topic of discussion, yes the largest cost is labor. However, I'll ask you this. Why is the labor cost driven so high? Could it be that unions cause the labor cost to go up?
No, I don't think so... The ability to collectively bargain may have some to do with it... But Labor costs have been stagnant for at least 2 decades. So I think the major player is driven by basic economic principles. There is lower demand for jobs in America. There is a high supply of workers in America. The demand sets the price for wages. Because there are so many people fighting for only a few jobs, the wages are lowered here.
And again, the reason why all these manufacturing jobs have left is because of free trade with 3rd world and developing countries where wages are pennies on the dollar.
Quote:No, I don't think so... The ability to collectively bargain may have some to do with it... But Labor costs have been stagnant for at least 2 decades. So I think the major player is driven by basic economic principles. There is lower demand for jobs in America. There is a high supply of workers in America. The demand sets the price for wages. Because there are so many people fighting for only a few jobs, the wages are lowered here.
And again, the reason why all these manufacturing jobs have left is because of free trade with 3rd world and developing countries where wages are pennies on the dollar.
Biggest issue that no one wants to talk about: the increased supply of labor when women entered the workforce. You can't just add 75% to your supply and expect demand to remain the same. I'm not saying it's bad, it just is.
Quote:Biggest issue that no one wants to talk about: the increased supply of labor when women entered the workforce. You can't just add 75% to your supply and expect demand to remain the same. I'm not saying it's bad, it just is.
When women enter the work force, they earn money and become consumers. So you have added to the supply of labor, but you have also added to the demand for goods and services, which raises the demand for labor.
And aside from that, countries that refuse to utilize half their talent base are at a severe competitive disadvantage against other countries who take full advantage of all the talent they have.
Quote:Biggest issue that no one wants to talk about: the increased supply of labor when women entered the workforce. You can't just add 75% to your supply and expect demand to remain the same. I'm not saying it's bad, it just is.
More like uncontrolled immigration and horrible trade agreements like nafta and this TPP.
Quote:When women enter the work force, they earn money and become consumers. So you have added to the supply of labor, but you have also added to the demand for goods and services, which raises the demand for labor.
And aside from that, countries that refuse to utilize half their talent base are at a severe competitive disadvantage against other countries who take full advantage of all the talent they have.
Nope, we're talkiing about going from single income families to double income families, the vast majority of American households the last 100 years. Those households don't demand more goods, demand remains relatively static for America's two parent, 2.3 children families. What decreased was the need for roughly 1/3 of the men in the workforce as women moved in and took their place (at lower wages).
Quote:More like uncontrolled immigration and horrible trade agreements like nafta and this TPP.
The major changes to America's work force demographics took place nearly 70 years ago, long before any of those were an issue.
Quote:The major changes to America's work force demographics took place nearly 70 years ago, long before any of those were an issue.
Which is why I'd think immigration and out sourcing labor is a bigger reason for low wages.
Quote:Nope, we're talkiing about going from single income families to double income families, the vast majority of American households the last 100 years. Those households don't demand more goods, demand remains relatively static for America's two parent, 2.3 children families. What decreased was the need for roughly 1/3 of the men in the workforce as women moved in and took their place (at lower wages).
You miss the main point, the jobs and the wages stayed within the country. There was no wage flight like we now see. I'm not saying that you are 100% wrong, but the reason we didn't see a total stagnation of wages (the way we do now) is because of what Real Marty describes. The income stayed in the USA and the purchasing power and demand for products also stayed in the USA.