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Quote:Here's an interesting question that I have been pondering.  

 

Is there anything that happens without a cause?  Is anything literally spontaneous?   Is everything that happens caused by something that happened before?   Like billiard balls on a billiard table.   Action, reaction.  Ad infinitum.   One thing causes another. 

 

Now, assume your answer is, nothing happens that wasn't caused by something else.  What does this say about free will?  It says that free will is an illusion.  

 

Causal Determinism

 

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

 

"Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. The idea is ancient, but first became subject to clarification and mathematical analysis in the eighteenth century. Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case."

 

Here's another definition from the same article: 

 

"Causal determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of) determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law."

 

So the underlying question is, if you believe in causal determinism, that everything that happens has a cause, is a person truly responsible for his or her own actions?   If everything you do is caused by a combination of your own experience, your genetics, and your environment, then you cannot be blamed for your own mistakes and you cannot be given credit for your achievements.   It was all determined at the time of the big bang.  It's predestined. 

 

Please discuss.  

 

So, essentially, your question is basically "Do you believe in Destiny, that your life and actions have been pre-planned and pre-ordained?"

 

To simply answer this question. In short, No. No, I do not believe in Destiny and I do not believe that some God or Cosmic Force of Nature pre-planned my entire deck of cards and knew how the game would be played out until the day of my own death.

 

It's ridiculous to throw this on the table as an excuse for horrific acts against humanity throughout the centuries of mankind. To say that because of this I am not responsible for my stupidity or crimes. I absolutely refuse to believe in this theory or concept. We were born with free will to an extent. Depending on where you're born or from. You may or may not have free will. But free will exists in nature. We choose to make the right decisions or wrong decisions. We choose to help or hinder ourselves or others that we come across in life.

 

I don't see "Free Will" being an illusion. I'll say that, in some parts of the world that you may have a very corrupt and greedy force of people striving to take that away from us though. And you can take that seriously or with a grain of salt. I won't put my tinfoil hat on or anything. But the waters run deep when you look at a few key families throughout the history books and the roles they've played in helping or hindering this world in general. They may want to pre-plan our future and pre-ordain our future generations. But I won't chalk that up to any unseen force outside of our universe. Atleast not yet.

Quote:This is one I've incited arguments with (mostly women):

Would you rather win a $100 million lottery and never fall in love or fall in love and be poor?

 

The cliche answer is always "fall in love and be poor" because choosing the money is shallow/selfish. However, I say that answer is distustingly selfish itself. Think of how many thousands of lives you could improve with the $100 million. Think about the childrens centers you could help develop, the hungry you could feed, the shelter you could provide, etc. etc. etc. Parents, grandparents, other family members living paycheck to paychek? Not anymore they aren't. The local family that can't afford to pay for their kid's surgery? You can change that. But, nah......screw all of that because choosing the money is shallow. :whistling:

 

I would take the $100M and help my family and others in need. Pay off my house, retire young, and go on my own journey around the world to find the things I personally love. I've been in love three times. I am getting married next year. As much as I love my bride to be. The ability to be truly free, to be able to go to sleep everynight without worrying about the next day, and to wake up every morning with freedom to come and go as you please now until the day you die. That's true love my friend. If our entire world wasn't income based and driven by a monetary system. The answer would easily be to fall in love and be poor. Because you wouldn't know what the meaning of poor was anymore without money in the picture. But in truth, in order to truly live free these days, and to find knowledge, and culture, and things that truly make you happy and love life. You have to have money, and lots of it.

Quote:So, essentially, your question is basically "Do you believe in Destiny, that your life and actions have been pre-planned and pre-ordained?"

 

To simply answer this question. In short, No. No, I do not believe in Destiny and I do not believe that some God or Cosmic Force of Nature pre-planned my entire deck of cards and knew how the game would be played out until the day of my own death.

 

It's ridiculous to throw this on the table as an excuse for horrific acts against humanity throughout the centuries of mankind. To say that because of this I am not responsible for my stupidity or crimes. I absolutely refuse to believe in this theory or concept. We were born with free will to an extent. Depending on where you're born or from. You may or may not have free will. But free will exists in nature. We choose to make the right decisions or wrong decisions. We choose to help or hinder ourselves or others that we come across in life.

 

I don't see "Free Will" being an illusion. I'll say that, in some parts of the world that you may have a very corrupt and greedy force of people striving to take that away from us though. And you can take that seriously or with a grain of salt. I won't put my tinfoil hat on or anything. But the waters run deep when you look at a few key families throughout the history books and the roles they've played in helping or hindering this world in general. They may want to pre-plan our future and pre-ordain our future generations. But I won't chalk that up to any unseen force outside of our universe. Atleast not yet.

 

No, I'm not talking about God.   I'm leaving that concept out of it.  

 

My question was, if you believe in the laws of nature, for example, that every action produces an equal and opposite reaction, that energy is  neither created nor destroyed, and so forth, then can you believe that anything that happens is truly spontaneous?   Does everything have a cause or a set of causes?  

 

You can think you are exercising free will, but in reality, aren't your choices completely influenced by your genetics, your environment, your experiences?   If you come to a fork in the road, and you choose to go left instead of right, it may seem like you are exercising free will, but in reality there is a reason for why you chose left instead of right.  In that way, free will is an illusion.   You were always going to choose left over right, and that was determined at the time of the big bang. 

 

Can we explain even a whim (I think I'll go get a beer)?  It may seem like a whim to you, but can't even a whim be explained by causes that had causes that had causes?   If choices are inevitable, if every choice has a cause, which had a cause, which had a cause, then are those choices really made freely?  Or were they pre-determined a long time ago?

 

It seems like the goal of science is to explain things.  Theoretically, if we were smart enough, could everything that happened after the creation of the laws of science (the big bang) be explained?  

 

If we were omniscient, and we knew that current state of everything, and we knew all the laws of science, could we predict the future perfectly?   And if that is true, then our lives were set at the time of the big bang, when everything was set in motion and all the laws of science were created.  

 

In that way, what we think of as free will is an illusion. 

 

And by the way, I am not certain about all this.   It's just an interesting thought.  

Quote:I don't believe in predetermined dates or destineys. We make our own future in the way we react and handle each situation good or bad. In the end we all get what we deserve.

Getting what you deserve? So who decides what you deserve? If that were the case then bad things wouldn't happen to good people.

Quote:Getting what you deserve? So who decides what you deserve? If that were the case then bad things wouldn't happen to good people.

 

Well put. You can only control so much.

Quote:No, I'm not talking about God.   I'm leaving that concept out of it.  

 

My question was, if you believe in the laws of nature, for example, that every action produces an equal and opposite reaction, that energy is  neither created nor destroyed, and so forth, then can you believe that anything that happens is truly spontaneous?   Does everything have a cause or a set of causes?  

 

You can think you are exercising free will, but in reality, aren't your choices completely influenced by your genetics, your environment, your experiences?   If you come to a fork in the road, and you choose to go left instead of right, it may seem like you are exercising free will, but in reality there is a reason for why you chose left instead of right.  In that way, free will is an illusion.   You were always going to choose left over right, and that was determined at the time of the big bang. 

 

Can we explain even a whim (I think I'll go get a beer)?  It may seem like a whim to you, but can't even a whim be explained by causes that had causes that had causes?   If choices are inevitable, if every choice has a cause, which had a cause, which had a cause, then are those choices really made freely?  Or were they pre-determined a long time ago?

 

It seems like the goal of science is to explain things.  Theoretically, if we were smart enough, could everything that happened after the creation of the laws of science (the big bang) be explained?  

 

If we were omniscient, and we knew that current state of everything, and we knew all the laws of science, could we predict the future perfectly?   And if that is true, then our lives were set at the time of the big bang, when everything was set in motion and all the laws of science were created.  

 

In that way, what we think of as free will is an illusion. 

 

I've had similiar thoughts like this. I've often compared it to the "double mirror" effect. Where if you place two mirrors together it seems to give off the same reflection in a neverending cascade type effect it just goes further away and on in continium.

 

This is the kind of question that used to get me kicked out of Sunday school in Church. I would often ask the questions nobody could answer and then I'd follow it up with the same question.

 

"If God created us, then who created God?". And then from there, the "Mirror Effect" type questions start coming up. Almost as any child would ask the same annoying questions because to them at that age it must make sense. Whereas, when you're an adult and raised into a belief system very systematically you're taught NOT to question it. To accept it.

 

So, it would go on and on and on. If A. created B. Then who Created A? And who created the thing that created A and so forth and so forth and so forth. Even with the the Big Bang theory, right? What caused it to occur? And what created the two primary elements needed to create the Big Bang? And what created those elements, etc?

 

That question can and will drive you up a wall and into madness if you allow it to. It's a tough question. At the end of the day, everyone has proposed theories. I often laugh at Science AND Religion with their claims and beliefs sometimes. For example, when some Scientists announced that Space does run out of room, that thier literally is an edge you can fall off and out of in Space. How can you be sure of this? Have we explored deep space? No. Have we been able to cultivate and terraform other planets to jump from one galaxy to another? No. So why make such a foolish assumption when you can't prove it? How can you be so certain? It's impossible.

 

That's the long, aching question that many of us want to know. What truly started this all. We want the how, why, and who of it all. I hope when I do die that in theory my physical form is of no use but I often dream of death, and being left as a pure energy source, almost like Dr. Manhattan, if you know who I am referring to. A sense of energy with thoughts and feelings but no longer confounded by having to depend on food and water to exist. No longer needing oxygen. Just a force able to do virtually anything at my will. To explore worry free. That's my hope.

Quote:Getting what you deserve? So who decides what you deserve? If that were the case then bad things wouldn't happen to good people.

Define good people.

Quote:Define good people.

No, are you saying there aren't any?

Quote:My take on The Real Marty's post is that it doesn't matter.  To us, there is no difference between the two things.  Say time was just another dimension.  That means time is part of a matter and that there is no "before" or "after" because time exists at all at once. We will never see the world from that perspective.  We don't even see 3 dimensions, we just figure out the third one exists.  Predetermined is the same thing as "free will".   If you thought about something, is this really "free will"?  Or should you really be thinking about where that thought came from?

After reading this post, I actually googled how many dimensions are there and there are varying numbers ranging from 4 to 12...I always understood there to be 4 but there are scores of websites and different entities claiming that there are 10 + dimensions...

 

"A Universe of 10 Dimensions" http://www.universetoday.com/48619/a-uni...imensions/

 

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How Many Dimensions Does the Universe Really Have ...


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<span>Apr 3, 2014 - However, once she derives the equation for how their light moves through space, she finds that it is best expressed in four dimensions. Then, after much thought, she tries to think of ways to describe gravity and light in a common theory, which seems to require at least ten dimensions"</span>

 

"The 12 Dimensions of Creation


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<div>www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_<b>dimension</b>es01.htm
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In the 1990s, mathematicians working on the string theories of physics discovered the likelihood of there being at least ten dimensions in existence, not just the four dimensions that we had acknowledged before"

 

There are many more pages claiming double digit dimensions

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Quote:Define good people.

 

I'm sure that all of those infants and children suffering through terminal illnesses deserved the experience of early, agonizing deaths. The fact that you truly believe that is rather sickening.

 

I worked in a hospital where I spent a decent amount of time in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU). Spend some time in one before you make such ignorant statements. What could a neonate with Grade IV intraventricular hemorrhaging have done to deserve that? Sick, Eric.

Quote:After reading this post, I actually googled how many dimensions are there and there are varying numbers ranging from 4 to 12...I always understood there to be 4 but there are scores of websites and different entities claiming that there are 10 + dimensions...

 

There's also a theory the universe is a hologram and has only two dimensions .  Then there's a theory that the universe had only one dimension at some point.   

Quote:There's also a theory the universe is a hologram and has only two dimensions .  Then there's a theory that the universe had only one dimension at some point.   

well some theories can be debunked by common sense...a wall in your house has 3 dimensions...height, width, and length. It's obviously true as you can see all 3 with the naked eye...

Quote:well some theories can be debunked by common sense...a wall in your house has 3 dimensions...height, width, and length. It's obviously true as you can see all 3 with the naked eye...

 

Not exactly.   That's only true if you believed the universe is exactly what you see.   All we can verify is what our brain tells us. Like the idea of colors.  Color is just something our brain makes up in order to make sense of the world.  Even the idea of the color "blue" is a relatively recent concept.  The brain does so many things to process and filter the information we sense, things even the biggest supercomputer in the world can't do.  The third dimension could just be another way of making sense of the universe.  

 

As far as seeing 3 dimensions, a wall isn't the best example, but it does seem pretty obvious to us that we are in 3 dimensional space.  But we only know this because of observations based on movement and memory.  If nothing moved there would be no way of verifying we are looking at the universe or if we are looking at a 2d photograph of the universe.        

 

The problem is we don't really know how much magic goes on between the universe and our brain.  

Quote:Not exactly.   That's only true if you believed the universe is exactly what you see.   All we can verify is what our brain tells us. Like the idea of colors.  Color is just something our brain makes up in order to make sense of the world.  Even the idea of the color "blue" is a relatively recent concept.  The brain does so many things to process and filter the information we sense, things even the biggest supercomputer in the world can't do.  The third dimension could just be another way of making sense of the universe.  

 

As far as seeing 3 dimensions, a wall isn't the best example, but it does seem pretty obvious to us that we are in 3 dimensional space.  But we only know this because of observations based on movement and memory.  If nothing moved there would be no way of verifying we are looking at the universe or if we are looking at a 2d photograph of the universe.        

 

The problem is we don't really know how much magic goes on between the universe and our brain.  

a wall is a a great example...it has length,width and height...That is 3 dimensions you can see with your own eyes and measure all three... You can measure how tall your wall is, you can measure how long it is, and you can measure how wide it is... that is perfect example of a 3 dimensional object. when you can measure length width and height there is undeniable proof that it is 3 dimensional

Live your life right, and there should be no worries.

Quote:a wall is a a great example...it has length,width and height...That is 3 dimensions you can see with your own eyes and measure all three... You can measure how tall your wall is, you can measure how long it is, and you can measure how wide it is... that is perfect example of a 3 dimensional object. when you can measure length width and height there is undeniable proof that it is 3 dimensional

 

To the sane person, yes. To people like VisitingCobra than try to do things like convince you the chair isn't really there, no. I'll side with the sane people on this one.

Quote:a wall is a a great example...it has length,width and height...That is 3 dimensions you can see with your own eyes and measure all three... You can measure how tall your wall is, you can measure how long it is, and you can measure how wide it is... that is perfect example of a 3 dimensional object. when you can measure length width and height there is undeniable proof that it is 3 dimensional

 

Not saying you're wrong.  But there is still a problem.  Based on your perspective, width, height, and length are interchangeable.  In other words you could measure every dimension by holding a tape measure from your left hand to your right hand if you change your perspective.  How can you verify you are measuring a different dimension every time?

Quote:To the sane person, yes. To people like VisitingCobra than try to do things like convince you the chair isn't really there, no. I'll side with the sane people on this one.

 

If you paid close attention, I didn't propose any theories about how many dimensions the universe has so I don't know what I'm trying to convince anyone of.   But you've got a good perspective.  The difference is that you seem to need an answer, while I don't believe the answer really matters.   And I am not afraid to explore all the insane possibilities.  

 

So have a seat ... (if you dare)!

Quote:I'm sure that all of those infants and children suffering through terminal illnesses deserved the experience of early, agonizing deaths. The fact that you truly believe that is rather sickening.


I worked in a hospital where I spent a decent amount of time in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU). Spend some time in one before you make such ignorant statements. What could a neonate with Grade IV intraventricular hemorrhaging have done to deserve that? Sick, Eric.

No ones taking about sickness the reply was to a question about destiny and predestination. But don't let the stop you from taking a response by me and making it something else to grind that personal axe you have with me.

Quote:No, are you saying there aren't any?

That's why I asked you for a definition. At some level we all have bad or sin or evil in us whatever you want to call it. What happens in life most of it is a result of actions taken some good some bad some non of the above. I believe In a higher power I don't believe we all come into earth with a preplanned road map and destiny or fate takes us to where we're supposed to be that's the movies. Bad things happen to good people because someone's good people make bad choices, and then sometimes good people suffer because other people make bad choices, sometimes bad things just happen naturally but it's not fate or some higher power testing us.