Wasn't the reason we lost

We've had calls go against us in the past but the timing of the ones in this game were terrible. Possibly could have overcome them and probably should have but they were definitely a contributing factor.

There are missed calls every single game and on most plays too. Jags lost this on their own (again)

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To say the refs didn't play a role is foolish...

They had an INT taken away due to the bogus roughing the passer penalty , which gave them the ball back and a free 15 yards. Then on the very next play they called a late hit penalty that gave them another 15 free yards.

Their 2nd scoring drive was kept alive and jump started by one of the most bogus face masking penalties I've ever seen, which also gifted them a free 15 yards. Went from their own 25 yard line, to their 44 yard line. Huge difference in field position and turned what would have been a 3rd and 2, into a fresh set of downs.

They called Defensive holding on Hayden I think it was, at the end of the game in our end zone, when Malik Jackson was very clearly being held on that same play.

We had 3 penalties called on us in the 1st half... Two of which were Offensive Holding. One by Westbrook and one by Shatley. The other was a 12 man in the huddle penalty. Both of those holding calls that got called back, would have been a converted first down as well.

They had 2 of their penalties in the 1st half. The first one was an Illegal shift (5 yards), only 6 minutes into the game. The 2nd was an Illegal Contact penalty on Haden. Meaningless 5 yard penalty, considering we had a positive gain on that play and converted a first down. Was 3 minutes left in the 1st quarter at that time. Their 3rd and final penalty was yet another 5 yarder... A false start with like 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter and two plays later Gipson busted coverage on Brown's long TD.

1st drive of the 2nd half, Parnell got called for a Holding penalty which turned a 3rd and 2 into a 3rd and 12. We got sacked the next play and punted. I could go on and on and on but I'm over it honestly... They had 2 penalties in the 1st half, we had 3. They had 1 in the 2nd half and we had 8... [BLEEP]. I simply don't understand how we continue to get multiple Offensive Holding penalties called on us every game. But other teams never get a single Offensive holding call against them when going against our DL. Our DL is being held constantly and it's never called for us. It's getting beyond the point of one sided reffing and it's pathetic.

It's a dumb rule but that was roughing the passer from Calais. We've seen it called quite often this year.

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We've had calls go against us in the past but the timing of the ones in this game were terrible. Possibly could have overcome them and probably should have but they were definitely a contributing factor.

There are missed calls every single game and on most plays too. Jags lost this on their own (again)

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To say the refs didn't play a role is foolish...

They had an INT taken away due to the bogus roughing the passer penalty , which gave them the ball back and a free 15 yards. Then on the very next play they called a late hit penalty that gave them another 15 free yards.

Their 2nd scoring drive was kept alive and jump started by one of the most bogus face masking penalties I've ever seen, which also gifted them a free 15 yards. Went from their own 25 yard line, to their 44 yard line. Huge difference in field position and turned what would have been a 3rd and 2, into a fresh set of downs.

They called Defensive holding on Hayden I think it was, at the end of the game in our end zone, when Malik Jackson was very clearly being held on that same play.

We had 3 penalties called on us in the 1st half... Two of which were Offensive Holding. One by Westbrook and one by Shatley. The other was a 12 man in the huddle penalty. Both of those holding calls that got called back, would have been a converted first down as well.

They had 2 of their penalties in the 1st half. The first one was an Illegal shift (5 yards), only 6 minutes into the game. The 2nd was an Illegal Contact penalty on Haden. Meaningless 5 yard penalty, considering we had a positive gain on that play and converted a first down. Was 3 minutes left in the 1st quarter at that time. Their 3rd and final penalty was yet another 5 yarder... A false start with like 3 minutes left in the 3rd quarter and two plays later Gipson busted coverage on Brown's long TD.

1st drive of the 2nd half, Parnell got called for a Holding penalty which turned a 3rd and 2 into a 3rd and 12. We got sacked the next play and punted. I could go on and on and on but I'm over it honestly... They had 2 penalties in the 1st half, we had 3. They had 1 in the 2nd half and we had 8... [BLEEP]. I simply don't understand how we continue to get multiple Offensive Holding penalties called on us every game. But other teams never get a single Offensive holding call against them when going against our DL. Our DL is being held constantly and it's never called for us. It's getting beyond the point of one sided reffing and it's pathetic.

It's a dumb rule but that was roughing the passer from Calais. We've seen it called quite often this year.

https://twitter.com/joshnorris/status/10...10951?s=21

I’m sorry but this was a horrendous call.

Exactly what was he to do different?

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"Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot."

There are missed calls every single game and on most plays too. Jags lost this on their own (again)

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It's a dumb rule but that was roughing the passer from Calais. We've seen it called quite often this year.

https://twitter.com/joshnorris/status/10...10951?s=21

I’m sorry but this was a horrendous call.

Exactly what was he to do different?

You aren't allowed land your weight on the QB like that anymore. You have to go to the side.  

Again dumb rule and they could be more consistent with it but they have called that quite a bit this year.

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NFL is scripted for the big boys. Might be time to make the switch permanently to CFB.

Hah, and be at the mercy of some arbitrary, know nothing, SEC nut hugging goons? "QuAlItY lOsSeS!1!" Pass. The only 3 sports entities that get it right in the world is NCAA basketball, hockey, and soccer. Baseball is pretty hard to mess up too, but there are some terrible umps.  The NFL is getting pretty blatant with the favoritism among officials, its disgusting.

You have disqualified yourself with this. Duke, Kentucky, and Michigan State get all the calls all the time. And most College basketball teams get home cooking concerning fouls and what not. College basketball is the most corrupt of them all in terms of officiating. That fact couldn't be more obvious.

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A True Fan ladies and gentlemen:

Ramsey for Grier straight up

The NFL is not a sports league, they are an entertainment venue and they reserve the right to alter games for increased ratings or entertainment value.

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https://twitter.com/joshnorris/status/10...10951?s=21

I’m sorry but this was a horrendous call.

Exactly what was he to do different?

You aren't allowed land your weight on the QB like that anymore. You have to go to the side.  

Again dumb rule and they could be more consistent with it but they have called that quite a bit this year.

Are they allowed to hold?!?

That was one of the most blatant holds not called I've seen.

At worst, that should have been offsetting penalties.

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Why cant the team be lousy AND get screwed by the refs?  Doesnt have to be one or the other.  

There is a website that shows you the number of penalties called on each team and penalties called on their opponents.  And earlier this year, the jags had far and away the biggest discrepancy in the number of penalties called against them vs their opponents.  The next closest team was less than half the discrepancy.  Haven't checked the site in awhile.  I'm sure it reverted back to the mean somewhat although based on the numbers today, wouldnt be surprised if it was still on the wrong side of the ledger.

I'd love to see that website.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

https://twitter.com/joshnorris/status/10...10951?s=21

I’m sorry but this was a horrendous call.

Exactly what was he to do different?

You aren't allowed land your weight on the QB like that anymore. You have to go to the side.  

Again dumb rule and they could be more consistent with it but they have called that quite a bit this year.

You're not tackling a guy like Ben Roethlisberger without the weight of your body.  And for Calais using his weight on that play, it wasn't anywhere near as egregious as some other plays where the penalty was called in other games I've seen this year.  I get it for a guy like Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, but you're just never going to sack Ben otherwise.  These rule changes are going to eventually push fans to other sports or other football leagues. Whether that play fits the letter of the law as a penalty or not, it was a garbage call.

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You aren't allowed land your weight on the QB like that anymore. You have to go to the side.  

Again dumb rule and they could be more consistent with it but they have called that quite a bit this year.

You're not tackling a guy like Ben Roethlisberger without the weight of your body.  And for Calais using his weight on that play, it wasn't anywhere near as egregious as some other plays where the penalty was called in other games I've seen this year.  I get it for a guy like Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, but you're just never going to sack Ben otherwise.  These rule changes are going to eventually push fans to other sports or other football leagues.  Whether that play fits the letter of the law as a penalty or not, it was a garbage call.

Oh yeah it makes no sense, just pointing out they didn't get the roughing the passer call wrong like people said.

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You aren't allowed land your weight on the QB like that anymore. You have to go to the side.  

Again dumb rule and they could be more consistent with it but they have called that quite a bit this year.

Are they allowed to hold?!?

That was one of the most blatant holds not called I've seen.

At worst, that should have been offsetting penalties.

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Why cant the team be lousy AND get screwed by the refs?  Doesnt have to be one or the other.  

There is a website that shows you the number of penalties called on each team and penalties called on their opponents.  And earlier this year, the jags had far and away the biggest discrepancy in the number of penalties called against them vs their opponents.  The next closest team was less than half the discrepancy.  Haven't checked the site in awhile.  I'm sure it reverted back to the mean somewhat although based on the numbers today, wouldnt be surprised if it was still on the wrong side of the ledger.

I'd love to see that website.

The holding call makes more sense but and I've seen those go either way too. Calais shouldn't be penalized for being able to continue on with the play.

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The roughing-the-passer rule is terrible, no doubt. The intention for creating the rule is valid, I.e., to protect the most important position in football.....the QB. However, the thing that irks most fans is the INCONSISTENCY in the way it is enforced. A slight brush of Tom Brady’s helmet will result in a penalty, whereas a sledgehammer blow to a backup QB will not. I’m sure that the intention of the rule makers was to eliminate the egregious slamming down of a QB with the full weight of a 300-plus pound defensive lineman that resulted in QB injuries in the past. The tremendous subjectiveness of the rule has resulted in too much controversy.

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We've had calls go against us in the past but the timing of the ones in this game were terrible. Possibly could have overcome them and probably should have but they were definitely a contributing factor.

There are missed calls every single game and on most plays too. Jags lost this on their own (again)

Is your position that bad officiating never influences the outcome of a game? I disagree with that completely. We see several every year in the NFL (and other sports leagues) where that happens.

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The NFL is not a sports league, they are an entertainment venue and they reserve the right to alter games for increased ratings or entertainment value.

It’s not that far out there. NBA refs got caught trying to fix games in the 90s

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Why cant the team be lousy AND get screwed by the refs?  Doesnt have to be one or the other.  

There is a website that shows you the number of penalties called on each team and penalties called on their opponents.  And earlier this year, the jags had far and away the biggest discrepancy in the number of penalties called against them vs their opponents.  The next closest team was less than half the discrepancy.  Haven't checked the site in awhile.  I'm sure it reverted back to the mean somewhat although based on the numbers today, wouldnt be surprised if it was still on the wrong side of the ledger.

I'd love to see that website.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

We're only 3rd worst now.  We've evened out since the beginning of the year.  After the Tennessee game I think we were around -15.  Early in the season it was preposterous how few calls were made against New England and Tennessee.  Although looking at these numbers maybe that makes sense as they have the fewest penalties called on them during the year.

Would also be interesting to see these by referee groups. Are Tennessee and New England really that much more disciplined? Could be based on their coaches.

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________________________________________________
Scouting well is all that matters.  Draft philosophy is all fluff.

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I'd love to see that website.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

We're only 3rd worst now.  We've evened out since the beginning of the year.  After the Tennessee game I think we were around -15.  Early in the season it was preposterous how few calls were made against New England and Tennessee.  Although looking at these numbers maybe that makes sense as they have the fewest penalties called on them during the year.

Would also be interesting to see these by referee groups.  Are Tennessee and New England really that much more disciplined?  Could be based on their coaches.

Some of that can be determined by the pre-snap penalty flags. This implies false start or illegal formation. Of those, KC is one of the worst in the league. They have 31 to our 19. This would contribute to why they are so high on the list. If you normalize KC's pre-snap penalties, they drop significantly. It  would appear to be a race between Jax and Green Bay (which I never would have guessed). When you look at net difference, it's Jax and GB, then everyone else (-18 and -21 respectively). Green Bay has had -308 to the Jags -259 in terms of yards penalized (again, if you normalize for KC's pre-snap count penalties), the next closest team is -159. 

Unlike GB, Jags have the biggest discrepancy when it comes to unnecessary roughness. We have been called 8 times for 110 yards, as opposed to 4 times for us for 31 yards. I would have thought we'd rank higher on DPI. There is a lot of ways to break down that data more specifically, but I was just looking at the generalized data right now. Maybe I'll get into the details later. I'd really like to see when the penalties are called.

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There are missed calls every single game and on most plays too. Jags lost this on their own (again)

Is your position that bad officiating never influences the outcome of a game? I disagree with that completely. We see several every year in the NFL (and other sports leagues) where that happens.

Of course not. My position is that if a team still had tons of chances to win despite a bad call then it's not the refs fault and adds nothing to the analysis to blame them.     

Every professional sport thinks it's refs are awful and out to get their team. The reality is its impossible to get every call right

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Doug Marrones teams have been near the top of the penalty charts every year he's been a head coach. That's a bigger problem than any nefarious scheme by the refs to screw us over.

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Is your position that bad officiating never influences the outcome of a game? I disagree with that completely. We see several every year in the NFL (and other sports leagues) where that happens.

Of course not. My position is that if a team still had tons of chances to win despite a bad call then it's not the refs fault and adds nothing to the analysis to blame them.     

Every professional sport thinks it's refs are awful and out to get their team. The reality is its impossible to get every call right

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Doug Marrones teams have been near the top of the penalty charts every year he's been a head coach. That's a bigger problem than any nefarious scheme by the refs to screw us over.

Officiating is part of the game and is subject to analysis just like a play call or a dropped pass. When officiating is particularly one-sided like it was against the squeelers, it in can make the difference even if a team has a chance to win in the end and blows it. The refs have to be held to a standard or it will become even worse then it is.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
Check out the Jag's Forum Alternative: Duval Football Fans.

Of course not. My position is that if a team still had tons of chances to win despite a bad call then it's not the refs fault and adds nothing to the analysis to blame them.     

Every professional sport thinks it's refs are awful and out to get their team. The reality is its impossible to get every call right

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Doug Marrones teams have been near the top of the penalty charts every year he's been a head coach. That's a bigger problem than any nefarious scheme by the refs to screw us over.

Officiating is part of the game and is subject to analysis just like a play call or a dropped pass. When officiating is particularly one-sided like it was against the squeelers, it in can make the difference even if a team has a chance to win in the end and blows it. The refs have to be held to a standard or it will become even worse then it is.

You can analyze it all you want but the vast majority of the time teams lose games due to their play, not because of the refs, so that's what I prefer to focus on. That's the case with the Steelers game.  We lost because of our play.  

Another reason the ref excuse does nothing for me is there are penalties on almost every play that could be called. So if you wanna say the refs were one sided well make sure to watch back and see how many calls they missed on us too.

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Hah, and be at the mercy of some arbitrary, know nothing, SEC nut hugging goons? "QuAlItY lOsSeS!1!" Pass. The only 3 sports entities that get it right in the world is NCAA basketball, hockey, and soccer. Baseball is pretty hard to mess up too, but there are some terrible umps.  The NFL is getting pretty blatant with the favoritism among officials, its disgusting.

You have disqualified yourself with this. Duke, Kentucky, and Michigan State get all the calls all the time. And most College basketball teams get home cooking concerning fouls and what not. College basketball is the most corrupt of them all in terms of officiating. That fact couldn't be more obvious.

This is the case in all sports. SEE : Us vs 2016 Packers, Us vs 2017 Patriots, Us vs 2018 Steelers. NBA had an entire referee scandal not too long ago..  We get hosed too. Officiating is awful everywhere.  At least in basketball, they hold respectable tourneys with a bunch of teams, this 4 team garbage where the SEC is held as some godsend is ridiculous. You also see biased officiating by inner conference referees vs out of conference teams. I just think its less rampant in the sports i listed.

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Officiating is part of the game and is subject to analysis just like a play call or a dropped pass. When officiating is particularly one-sided like it was against the squeelers, it in can make the difference even if a team has a chance to win in the end and blows it. The refs have to be held to a standard or it will become even worse then it is.

You can analyze it all you want but the vast majority of the time teams lose games due to their play, not because of the refs, so that's what I prefer to focus on. That's the case with the Steelers game.  We lost because of our play.  

Another reason the ref excuse does nothing for me is there are penalties on almost every play that could be called. So if you wanna say the refs were one sided well make sure to watch back and see how many calls they missed on us too.

I don't like referring to bad officiating as an "excuse" because it sounds like the conservative play calling was an "excuse" or the inability of the defense to stop the squeelers on the last drive is an "excuse". All were contributing factors. I re-watched the game as I normally do and I can pretty confidently say an unbiased observer would agree we got the short end in this particular game.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
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You can analyze it all you want but the vast majority of the time teams lose games due to their play, not because of the refs, so that's what I prefer to focus on. That's the case with the Steelers game.  We lost because of our play.  

Another reason the ref excuse does nothing for me is there are penalties on almost every play that could be called. So if you wanna say the refs were one sided well make sure to watch back and see how many calls they missed on us too.

I don't like referring to bad officiating as an "excuse" because it sounds like the conservative play calling was an "excuse" or the inability of the defense to stop the squeelers on the last drive is an "excuse". All were contributing factors. I re-watched the game as I normally do and I can pretty confidently say an unbiased observer would agree we got the short end in this particular game.

Only some of those contributing factors were in the teams control (although the jags did have multiple penalties caused directly by not knowing the rules).  

Right , so how many times did you see holding not called on either side and how many calls did the refs not call against us? You don't have to give a specific number, just any examples of plays the refs didn't ding is for when they could have

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I don't like referring to bad officiating as an "excuse" because it sounds like the conservative play calling was an "excuse" or the inability of the defense to stop the squeelers on the last drive is an "excuse". All were contributing factors. I re-watched the game as I normally do and I can pretty confidently say an unbiased observer would agree we got the short end in this particular game.

Only some of those contributing factors were in the teams control (although the jags did have multiple penalties caused directly by not knowing the rules).  

Right , so how many times did you see holding not called on either side and how many calls did the refs not call against us? You don't have to give a specific number, just any examples of plays the refs didn't ding is for when they could have

Holding is subjective and could be called on any particular play. Because one side gets the benefit (or not) of penalties overall doesn't mean every call goes against them, it can mean two or three in the course of a game that have an influence on the outcome because they stop a drive that should have continued or allow a first down that shouldn't have been.  Generally speaking, these things even out so the outcome of a game isn't influenced.  In this game in particular though, officiating did have an influence. Even knowing nothing else about what happened, statistically speaking you shouldn't ever see a penalty disparity like this:

Pitt: 3 for 15
Jaguars: 11 for 111

And 6 of the squeelers 19 first downs came from penalty. Jags ineffectiveness and conservative play calling where contributing factors too but I'm not sure the Jags don't win if the officiating had been just as one sided the other way.

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I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you. 
Check out the Jag's Forum Alternative: Duval Football Fans.