DJT or HRC?  I voted for the pothead.  We were screwed long before a single vote was cast with these two choices.  Let's not forget that.

I’ve long said this side of the message board needs to go. If there is no religion to be discussed, why is politics allowed? Has anyone actually changed their point of view? There are way more insults being thrown on this side than any other section.

Pardon the pun but, Amen to that.  Left v. right and anything following it is fighting words for many.   Myself included.  The religion talk could be like that as well, but I’d anticipate far less name calling and animosity toward others.  I actually feel there is great discussions to be had if it were allowed.  Not to mention, many topics in the political and sidelines sections can’t fully be debated/discussed without the religious aspect.  Even talking about space and aliens (not the illegal kind) over in the sidelines a few times can be discussed with that aspect.  Considering politics are allowed and how the country was found, what’s on our money, what’s included in the pledge that we say at school and so on and so on, I find it puzzling we can’t discuss it all.  Politics can be a very volatile subject as we’ve seen in many threads.  If that’s allowed, what’s the harm in including religion?  I imagine the arguments there would be more so “your crazy to think that” as opposed to “your an uneducated, worthless piece of crap”.  Your talking a belief (or not) vs values.   I’m hard core in my political views.  Which is why I try to stay away.  I don’t really want to get into arguments piss myself off.  I’m hardcore in my religious beliefs as well.  But I don’t get upset with those that don’t believe the same.  Not typically, at least.

---

DJT or HRC?  I voted for the pothead.  We were screwed long before a single vote was cast with these two choices.  Let's not forget that.

This may be the best thing anyone has written the entire time this section of the board has been around.

A lot of people just come on here to bash the left or bash the right. It’s so tiresome and I’m surprised some of you stay here as much as you do. 

I’ve long said this side of the message board needs to go. If there is no religion to be discussed, why is politics allowed? Has anyone actually changed their point of view? There are way more insults being thrown on this side than any other section.

I will say this Cleatwood, I come here to be challenged.  If all I ever get is positive affirmation then I have no chance to grow.  I personally welcome every single response that challenges my position because it makes me reevaluate my original stance.  With that said, I realize I am in a minority but I thank each and everyone of you that challenge me.

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

DJT or HRC?  I voted for the pothead.  We were screwed long before a single vote was cast with these two choices.  Let's not forget that.

This may be the best thing anyone has written the entire time this section of the board has been around.

A lot of people just come on here to bash the left or bash the right. It’s so tiresome and I’m surprised some of you stay here as much as you do. 

I’ve long said this side of the message board needs to go. If there is no religion to be discussed, why is politics allowed? Has anyone actually changed their point of view? There are way more insults being thrown on this side than any other section.

We enjoy it. If you don't then you don't have to come in here, but most of the time another "Bortles SUX" or "My top 7,000 draft value board" post over there is more worthless than the stuff we post in here.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I’ve long said this side of the message board needs to go. If there is no religion to be discussed, why is politics allowed? Has anyone actually changed their point of view? There are way more insults being thrown on this side than any other section.

Pardon the pun but, Amen to that.  Left v. right and anything following it is fighting words for many.   Myself included.  The religion talk could be like that as well, but I’d anticipate far less name calling and animosity toward others.  I actually feel there is great discussions to be had if it were allowed.  Not to mention, many topics in the political and sidelines sections can’t fully be debated/discussed without the religious aspect.  Even talking about space and aliens (not the illegal kind) over in the sidelines a few times can be discussed with that aspect.  Considering politics are allowed and how the country was found, what’s on our money, what’s included in the pledge that we say at school and so on and so on, I find it puzzling we can’t discuss it all.  Politics can be a very volatile subject as we’ve seen in many threads.  If that’s allowed, what’s the harm in including religion?  I imagine the arguments there would be more so “your crazy to think that” as opposed to “your an uneducated, worthless piece of crap”.  Your talking a belief (or not) vs values.   I’m hard core in my political views.  Which is why I try to stay away.  I don’t really want to get into arguments piss myself off.  I’m hardcore in my religious beliefs as well.  But I don’t get upset with those that don’t believe the same.  Not typically, at least.

I don't think it's right to lump those two together just because they're both hot button issues.
I think everyone's mind has religious circuits in it, but religion is not something that all of us have to do together. Politics is.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The single greatest problem in a political/religious debate is ones willingness to criticize their own positions. "Team" politics is ruinous to civility because people value ideology over principles (especially as it pertains to character). Ideology is the absence of the pursuit of truth. The vocal minority tends to get the most attention, and it ultimately leads to the moderates of each side supporting positions they might otherwise reject. People end up aligning themselves with people they shouldn't, simply because they are closer in ideology, even if they completely disagree with their character. Once that happens, then a certain type of behavior becomes the status quo. And before someone pops out with their "gotcha," yes, this also applies to Trump. However, that is not an incident that happened by itself. We are basically seeing conflict escalation in US politics.

I read this forum more than the Jags forum. I agree that insults and name calling are thrown about more here than they should be, but the implications are also greater than anything one would debate in the Home Team forum. It doesn't matter if someone believes Blake is the best QB ever to wear a uniform. It does matter to some people if late term abortions are legalized or banned. Whether we have this forum or not, "othering" has become a trend in American politics, and it's not going to go away without some kind of drastic change. Imo, it's good to have this forum so you can at least communicate with people that think differently.

---

You really think Trump is smart, don't you? I bet you also think he's honest, and everything he does is because he puts country ahead of self.

Did you get your refund from Trump U yet?

---

Enough morons bought into it to get Trump elected.

I voted for him more for his economic policies. Hitting 3%+ GDP in year 2 is impressive, no? Didn't Obama say his GDP numbers were the new normal? 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this RJ.

No you wouldn't. The middle class was duped. Enjoy it while you can.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Enough morons bought into it to get Trump elected.

DJT or HRC?  I voted for the pothead.  We were screwed long before a single vote was cast with these two choices.  Let's not forget that.

I voted for the pothead, too, but I live in a Deep Red state.  Had HRC had a shot at winning, I'd have voted for her. Lesser of two evils. When this all washes out, I'm confident Trump will be exposed. He is a bad person, worse than Hillary. It goes back years. It's sad to see well meaning people who were disgusted by the status quo in Washington hitch their wagon to Trump as their champion.

---

If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Did you get your refund from Trump U yet?

---

I voted for him more for his economic policies. Hitting 3%+ GDP in year 2 is impressive, no? Didn't Obama say his GDP numbers were the new normal? 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this RJ.

No you wouldn't. The middle class was duped. Enjoy it while you can.

Probably right.  Interest rates are going up and probably will be going up for a while.

---

DJT or HRC?  I voted for the pothead.  We were screwed long before a single vote was cast with these two choices.  Let's not forget that.

I voted for the pothead, too, but I live in a Deep Red state.  Had HRC had a shot at winning, I'd have voted for her. Lesser of two evils. When this all washes out, I'm confident Trump will be exposed. He is a bad person, worse than Hillary. It goes back years. It's sad to see well meaning people who were disgusted by the status quo in Washington hitch their wagon to Trump as their champion.

Yup.
it's even sadder to see so many well-meaning people disgusted with the status quo in Washington but not challenging themselves with deep thoughts about why the status quo is bad, or how it got that way, ir how they can help.  Just keep gravitating to more and more tough guy rhetoric.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

The single greatest problem in a political/religious debate is ones willingness to criticize their own positions. "Team" politics is ruinous to civility because people value ideology over principles (especially as it pertains to character). Ideology is the absence of the pursuit of truth. The vocal minority tends to get the most attention, and it ultimately leads to the moderates of each side supporting positions they might otherwise reject. People end up aligning themselves with people they shouldn't, simply because they are closer in ideology, even if they completely disagree with their character. Once that happens, then a certain type of behavior becomes the status quo. And before someone pops out with their "gotcha," yes, this also applies to Trump. However, that is not an incident that happened by itself. We are basically seeing conflict escalation in US politics.

I read this forum more than the Jags forum. I agree that insults and name calling are thrown about more here than they should be, but the implications are also greater than anything one would debate in the Home Team forum. It doesn't matter if someone believes Blake is the best QB ever to wear a uniform. It does matter to some people if late term abortions are legalized or banned. Whether we have this forum or not, "othering" has become a trend in American politics, and it's not going to go away without some kind of drastic change. Imo, it's good to have this forum so you can at least communicate with people that think differently.

you're correct that ideology is the absence of truth but it goes even deeper than that. 
In a democracy with multiple parties and multiple regional interests, the only way to govern is by coalition.  After the coalition wins and gets what it wants, it writes an ideology to explain and preserve itself.
Unfortunately in ours, coalitions are sticky and the ideologies that explain them last much longer than they should and get more convoluted than a soap opera.  Even after no one really believe or understands the original ideology, the husk of the party with its name recognition and access to the ballot in all 50 states is too valuable.  That husk will attract interlopers. These new people who will seem to the old ideologues to have no principles.

So on this level, Trump could have been a very good thing for us, this kind of changing of the guard. If he governed shrewdly there are a lot of openings for him to do things that would be good for everyone that would catch both parties so off guard that they'd be afraid to oppose him.  But he'd rather just lob dumb insults and focus on hot button issues rather than dodge them. Regardless, once he's gone, the Republican party will have become something totally different.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

You can't help. The game is rigged. You are powerless.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I don't visit the fantasy or video game forum but don't propose shutting down free speech because I don't care for it.

Nobody is forcing you to visit this forum.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but what are the positives of this forum?

I have conversations and epic battles here that I can't have at work, at home, whatever. People are more honest here than anyone I've tried to discuss politics with in real life, and if StroudCrowd is being Strou-Dub to the point that I'm genuinely just tired of it, I go visit another site for a while.

I think you'll find that if you look for interactions between active members of this subforum elsewhere on the site, you'll see that we're pretty damn good at keeping our disagreements in here. If the battles were spilling out into other forums and it was impossible for political forum participants to be civil towards each other at all, then I'd agree that there was a problem, but I don't see that.

---

Just read this whole thread, maybe I’m able to filter out the over the top stuff and insults, but I find most of the discussion decent enough.

When Pelosi got elected as the speaker, I told my friend “watch she’s gonna run circles around Trump”. The conservative types on here might be dismissive and unable to see how formidable an opponent she is but make no mistake you don’t pass landmark legislation and retake the speakership without having acumen, discipline, and moxy. She grew up with her dad being an old school cut throat big city mayor and has raised five kids, underestimate her at your own peril.

Trump would be an underdog if they came into a match with even hands, the fact that Trump did everything possible to weaken his position beforehand just demonstrated that this was gonna end up the way it did, make no mistake a complete victory to Pelosi. I almost think that Pelosi was intentionally having memebers “waiver” to give the administration false hope so they could prolong the shutdown and in turn even weaken his public position even more.

Trump had the benefit of a completely compliant house and senate the first two years, with nearly every republican scared to death of getting primaried. No one dared challenge him which completely hid his complete ineptitude in terms of governing and consensus building. The impulsiveness, lack of organization, and propensity to play to his base is going to really lay bare his inadequacy for the next two years, this won’t be the last time she gets him. This isn’t even taking about his complete lack of understanding the details of policy.

On some level Trump is simple, and will stick to his playbook and there’s nothing new that’s gonna change what people think of him. Hes the same guy who got off the escalor and called Mexicans illegal immigrants mostly rapist and murderers to start his campaign. He’s got his base and they are there for him, but unfortunately he’s become completely emotionally dependent on their approval and adulation. This whole thing happened because Coulter and Limbaugh turned on him, that’s why the wall became a must priority, the first two years despite having far more leverage he didn’t put forth a fraction of the effort, he torpedoed a deal last year with 50B in wall funding. He sensed he was losing them and he had to prove that he was serious this time. What is amazing is how the most powerful person in the world doesn’t realize he has more power than Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh. But honestly I think he loves what his base gives him and he is scared to death of losing that.

What would have been hilarious if it were not sad about people not getting paid, was the demonstration of how he and many in his administration are completely devoid of empathy. They in no way can relate to or empathize with the people who were affected. You can just get a loan, or even better you can just get a bag of groceries without paying because “they know you” . It reminds me of the 30 Rock character Jack Donaghy (rich GE executive) who when asked how much does a gallon of milk costs guesses $90, might have been the greatest sales job/con job in history making people think he could in anyway identify with them.

Let’s hope there is some deal to be made that we aren’t back in the same place in a few weeks, but honestly it could end up being ground hogs day, Trump might not even take the mantle beforehand the second time around.

---

Insults or disagreements are just par for the course. It happens when two sides really believe in their points of view. With that said, it is a great forum to discuss our differences. Nobody should take anything personal. If you do, step away and come back. I find myself spending more time over here because it is usually more cerebral than the sky is falling and I’m getting rid of my season tickets crowd on the other side. I enjoy hearing from both sides and find myself learning something new on occasion, at least when folks are being unbiased in discussions. I believe, overall, we’ve done a good job of not bleeding over to the other side and keeping discussion palatable. Now you clowns can get back to your socialist drum beat! Kidding...or am I?

---

I guess my post comes off as getting rid of the politics a bit. I’m actually like it. I’ll read quite a bit but rarely chime in. My point above was, why not allow us to talk religion? Not so much as to have threads about preaching to people or even have its own dedicated section. There’s many cases where discussions come to a halt or only partially discussed because of the ban. Many topics that involved ISIS or some topics even in the sideline. If we can discuss politics here and it’s working, I feel we can also discuss opinions on situations/topics based off of beliefs. For instance, the sideline had a few topics about aliens. I’d love to say my opinions, but my opinion on that involves my beliefs. My opinion could be wrong, or even countered using the same logic. Which would lead to more and thought provoking debate. Instead we were left with either I believe or don’t, then bringing up statistics and odds. So I’m for being able to talk or reference religion, but not so much it’s own section. I feel the political section has been around long enough that the mods/admins have enough to go on as to decide whether or not to allow such discussion. It does get heated up a bit around here. But that’s natural for the topic. I don’t see how adding that element would make things any worse.

---

Just read this whole thread, maybe I’m able to filter out the over the top stuff and insults, but I find most of the discussion decent enough.  

When Pelosi got elected as the speaker, I told my friend “watch she’s gonna run circles around Trump”.  The conservative types on here might be dismissive and unable to see how formidable an opponent she is but make no mistake you don’t  pass landmark legislation and retake the speakership without having acumen, discipline, and moxy.  She grew up with her dad being an old school cut throat big city mayor and has raised five kids, underestimate her at your own peril.  

Trump would be an underdog if they came into a match with even hands, the fact that Trump did everything possible to weaken his position beforehand just demonstrated that this was gonna end up the way it did, make no mistake a complete victory to Pelosi.  I almost think that Pelosi was intentionally having memebers “waiver” to give the administration false hope so they could prolong the shutdown and in turn even weaken his public position even more.

Trump had the benefit of a completely compliant house and senate the first two years, with nearly every republican scared to death of getting primaried. No one dared challenge him which completely hid his complete ineptitude in terms of governing and consensus building.  The impulsiveness, lack of organization, and propensity to play to his base is going to really lay bare his inadequacy for the next two years, this won’t be the last time she gets him.  This isn’t even taking about his complete lack of understanding the details of policy.

On some level Trump is simple, and will stick to his playbook and there’s nothing new that’s gonna change what people think of him.  Hes the same guy who got off the escalor and called Mexicans illegal immigrants mostly rapist and murderers to start his campaign.  He’s got his base and they are there for him, but unfortunately he’s become completely emotionally dependent on their approval and adulation.  This whole thing happened because Coulter and Limbaugh turned on him, that’s why the wall became a must priority, the first two years despite having far more leverage he didn’t put forth a fraction of the effort, he torpedoed a deal last year with 50B in wall funding.   He sensed he was losing them and he had to prove that he was serious this time.  What is amazing is how the most powerful person in the world doesn’t realize he has more power than Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.  But honestly I think he loves what his base gives him and he is scared to death of losing that.  

What would have been hilarious if it were not sad about people not getting paid, was the demonstration of how he and many in his administration are completely devoid of empathy.  They in no way can relate to or empathize with the people who were affected.   You can just get a loan,  or even better you can just get a bag of groceries without paying because “they know you” .   It reminds me of the 30 Rock character Jack Donaghy (rich GE executive) who when asked how much does a gallon of milk costs guesses $90,  might have been the greatest sales job/con job in history making people think he could in anyway identify with them.  

Let’s hope there is some deal to be made that we aren’t back in the same place in a few weeks, but honestly it could end up being ground hogs day, Trump might not even take the mantle beforehand the second time around.

Simply amazing that we have a president who thinks his job is more to satisfy Ann Coulter than to find solutions by working with all of the 535 members of Congress.
That he's willing to tell all of them no, but not her.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

I guess my post comes off as getting rid of the politics a bit.   I’m actually like it.  I’ll read quite a bit but rarely chime in.  My point above was, why not allow us to talk religion?

Because it never. ends. well.

---

Just read this whole thread, maybe I’m able to filter out the over the top stuff and insults, but I find most of the discussion decent enough.  

When Pelosi got elected as the speaker, I told my friend “watch she’s gonna run circles around Trump”.  The conservative types on here might be dismissive and unable to see how formidable an opponent she is but make no mistake you don’t  pass landmark legislation and retake the speakership without having acumen, discipline, and moxy.  She grew up with her dad being an old school cut throat big city mayor and has raised five kids, underestimate her at your own peril.  

Trump would be an underdog if they came into a match with even hands, the fact that Trump did everything possible to weaken his position beforehand just demonstrated that this was gonna end up the way it did, make no mistake a complete victory to Pelosi.  I almost think that Pelosi was intentionally having memebers “waiver” to give the administration false hope so they could prolong the shutdown and in turn even weaken his public position even more.

Trump had the benefit of a completely compliant house and senate the first two years, with nearly every republican scared to death of getting primaried. No one dared challenge him which completely hid his complete ineptitude in terms of governing and consensus building.  The impulsiveness, lack of organization, and propensity to play to his base is going to really lay bare his inadequacy for the next two years, this won’t be the last time she gets him.  This isn’t even taking about his complete lack of understanding the details of policy.

On some level Trump is simple, and will stick to his playbook and there’s nothing new that’s gonna change what people think of him.  Hes the same guy who got off the escalor and called Mexicans illegal immigrants mostly rapist and murderers to start his campaign.  He’s got his base and they are there for him, but unfortunately he’s become completely emotionally dependent on their approval and adulation.  This whole thing happened because Coulter and Limbaugh turned on him, that’s why the wall became a must priority, the first two years despite having far more leverage he didn’t put forth a fraction of the effort, he torpedoed a deal last year with 50B in wall funding.   He sensed he was losing them and he had to prove that he was serious this time.  What is amazing is how the most powerful person in the world doesn’t realize he has more power than Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.  But honestly I think he loves what his base gives him and he is scared to death of losing that.  

What would have been hilarious if it were not sad about people not getting paid, was the demonstration of how he and many in his administration are completely devoid of empathy.  They in no way can relate to or empathize with the people who were affected.   You can just get a loan,  or even better you can just get a bag of groceries without paying because “they know you” .   It reminds me of the 30 Rock character Jack Donaghy (rich GE executive) who when asked how much does a gallon of milk costs guesses $90,  might have been the greatest sales job/con job in history making people think he could in anyway identify with them.  

Let’s hope there is some deal to be made that we aren’t back in the same place in a few weeks, but honestly it could end up being ground hogs day, Trump might not even take the mantle beforehand the second time around.

Simply amazing that we have a president who thinks his job is more to satisfy Ann Coulter than to find solutions by working with all of the 535 members of Congress.
That he's willing to tell all of them no, but not her.

Ann Coulter is not a fan of Trumps recent moves, so you sound like a moron when you rehash CNNs taking points. 

Have you always hated your country or did it just start in 2016?

---

Simply amazing that we have a president who thinks his job is more to satisfy Ann Coulter than to find solutions by working with all of the 535 members of Congress.
That he's willing to tell all of them no, but not her.

Ann Coulter is not a fan of Trumps recent moves, so you sound like a moron when you rehash CNNs taking points. 

Have you always hated your country or did it just start in 2016?

Not sure what you are getting at but this isnt a talking point this is what happened. In late December Pence and others had worked out a deal for a CR to last until the beginning February it passed the Senate.  https://www.federaltimes.com/management/...-february/

It had overwhelming support in the senate but included no wall funding.  Rush Limbaugh and Coulter panned the deal.  Trump unfollowed Coulter then backed out of the deal.  This led the country down the path of a ridiculous shutdown.  He is over and over again in his presidency chose to placate the most extreme elements of his base than try to form a consensus, he is so scared of losing their support. Every Pol with a brain told him how this would end but Trump being Trump, you know his gut tells him more than anybody’s brain ever could had to touch the stove and get burned.  Point is that he doesn’t seem to understand that the wall is unpopular amongst the whole electorate, everyone has heard the arguments for it, and because he has very little credibility it’s highly unlikely it will change with his persuasion.

THis is a wrap, he’s not gonna win this argument, most minds are made up he has a choice between two bowls of booboo, no wall and he can claim he increased the funding for border security or claim the fixes to existing walls are his wall or he can offer up DACA, TPS and then some and completely bewilder a chunk or his base, if he’s smart he choose the later and attempt to tack back to the middle while getting something he can call his wall.  But Trump being Trump and Stephen Miller still being in the WH I doubt it.  Also he can get kicked  by the Mule twice and attempt to shut down the government again. FYI I love my country like I love my kids, doesn’t change whenthey do something that upsets me.  And let me leave you with this nugget.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...f84e364431

---

Simply amazing that we have a president who thinks his job is more to satisfy Ann Coulter than to find solutions by working with all of the 535 members of Congress.
That he's willing to tell all of them no, but not her.

Ann Coulter is not a fan of Trumps recent moves, so you sound like a moron when you rehash CNNs taking points. 

Have you always hated your country or did it just start in 2016?

hahahaha ... Ann has seen the light! Hallelujah! That really puts you in a bind, doesn't it?

When did you stop beating your wife? You would have been a perfect chairman for the House UN-American Activities Committee.

---

The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

Ann Coulter is not a fan of Trumps recent moves, so you sound like a moron when you rehash CNNs taking points. 

Have you always hated your country or did it just start in 2016?

Not sure what you are getting at but this isnt a talking point this is what happened. In late December Pence and others had worked out a deal for a CR to last until the beginning February it passed the Senate.  https://www.federaltimes.com/management/...-february/

It had overwhelming support in the senate but included no wall funding.  Rush Limbaugh and Coulter panned the deal.  Trump unfollowed Coulter then backed out of the deal.  This led the country down the path of a ridiculous shutdown.  He is over and over again in his presidency chose to placate the most extreme elements of his base than try to form a consensus, he is so scared of losing their support. Every Pol with a brain told him how this would end but Trump being Trump, you know his gut tells him more than anybody’s brain ever could had to touch the stove and get burned.  Point is that he doesn’t seem to understand that the wall is unpopular amongst the whole electorate, everyone has heard the arguments for it, and because he has very little credibility it’s highly unlikely it will change with his persuasion.

THis is a wrap, he’s not gonna win this argument, most minds are made up he has a choice between two bowls of booboo, no wall and he can claim he increased the funding for border security or claim the fixes to existing walls are his wall or he can offer up DACA, TPS and then some and completely bewilder a chunk or his base, if he’s smart he choose the later and attempt to tack back to the middle while getting something he can call his wall.  But Trump being Trump and Stephen Miller still being in the WH I doubt it.  Also he can get kicked  by the Mule twice and attempt to shut down the government again. FYI I love my country like I love my kids, doesn’t change whenthey do something that upsets me.  And let me leave you with this nugget.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...f84e364431

Your problem is that you look at border security as an "argument".

---