Excellent insight, Bullseye.

 

One thing that benefited the Seahawks greatly is that Russell Wilson was in the 2nd season of his rookie contract,  with the monetary value of the player taken with pick # 75 of the 2012 Draft.  That gave the Seahawks more salary cap space to make FA additions.   With an owner like Paul Allen,  with very deep pockets and a strong commitment to win,   that opened the door for the Seahawks to have tremendous depth on their Defensive Line.  

 

The FA additions of Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett paid huge dividends in the regular season and even more in the playoffs.   I thought Avril was the MVP of the Super Bowl,  even though he didn't win the award.  The Seahawks Defensive Lineman always seemed fresh because they could rotate and not have much, if any drop-off.  

 

The bottom line is the Seahawks created a window to have great depth and took advantage of it.    Moving forward,  they will have salary cap challenges in attempting to keep the current roster as together as possible.   This is when their excellent mid round and on drafting and UDRFA acquisition skills might even be more important,   as they seek to win many Super Bowls.

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Actually it does. What part of "play the best guys regardless of contract status" do you not understand?

 

The gambling on character issue guys isn't at all unusual. What is unusual is landing a franchise QB in the third round. That's what really mattered. If the Jaguars get to always take the best player in the first and manage to have a franchise guy that everyone didn't know was a franchise guy in a later round they'll have success on the level of the Seahawks, too.

I focused in on the Russell Wilson portion of the post.


I never asserted gambling on guys with character issues was rare for championship teams...just that it tends to go against prevailing boardthink.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Excellent insight, Bullseye.

 

One thing that benefited the Seahawks greatly is that Russell Wilson was in the 2nd season of his rookie contract,  with the monetary value of the player taken with pick # 75 of the 2012 Draft.  That gave the Seahawks more salary cap space to make FA additions.   With an owner like Paul Allen,  with very deep pockets and a strong commitment to win,   that opened the door for the Seahawks to have tremendous depth on their Defensive Line.  

 

The FA additions of Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett paid huge dividends in the regular season and even more in the playoffs.   I thought Avril was the MVP of the Super Bowl,  even though he didn't win the award.  The Seahawks Defensive Lineman always seemed fresh because they could rotate and not have much, if any drop-off.  

 

The bottom line is the Seahawks created a window to have great depth and took advantage of it.    Moving forward,  they will have salary cap challenges in attempting to keep the current roster as together as possible.   This is when their excellent mid round and on drafting and UDRFA acquisition skills might even be more important,   as they seek to win many Super Bowls.

Thanks for the kind words.


Great point tying Wilson's inexpensive contract to the addition of the free agents. I think that is what Oklahomie was getting at in his post, too. If so, then apologies, Oklahomie, for missing your point.


I would take that a step further and say the abundance of low salaried guys performing optimally in the defense-especially the back seven. It should help bring in more guys short term and help sustain them longer term. Getting all these guys new deals will be pricey but worth it.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Actually it does. What part of "play the best guys regardless of contract status" do you not understand?


The gambling on character issue guys isn't at all unusual. What is unusual is landing a franchise QB in the third round. That's what really mattered. If the Jaguars get to always take the best player in the first and manage to have a franchise guy that everyone didn't know was a franchise guy in a later round they'll have success on the level of the Seahawks, too.

Why so combative?


Their D stands out more then their QB. Their D is what really mattered.

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Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows a favorite emphasis of mine is learning how championship teams were built. 

 

In the aftermath of Seattle's impressive win over Denver in the Super Bowl, I hadn't given much thought to how Seattle built their team until I heard a member of the Seahawks being interviewed on the radio in the after game celebration of their win.

 

I can't remember who it was (WR Doug Baldwin, IIRC), but he indicated that a whopping TWENTY ONE (21) of the team's Fifty three (53) man roster were undrafted free agents!  That's FORTY PERCENT of the team!! To me, that number absolutely boggles the mind, if it's true.

 

But then there are other ways Seattle bucked "conventional wisdom" in building this team.

 

Their QB is an undersized 3rd round pick. More Super Bowl QBs were first rounders than any other single round, and most were over 6'.

 

Many people have argued against the use of free agency and trades for players in building a championship team, yet Seattle signed guys like Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Matt Flynn  and Marshawn Lynch as free agents, and traded a first round pick in exchange for Percy Harvin.

 

Many, including TMD, have argued that it is now impossible for a defensive, ball control team to win the Super Bowl any longer, yet Seattle, a defense first, run the ball team dominated all year and won the big one.

 

I have argued that the best teams of all time (those who won multiple Super Bowls within a short period) have tended to place a heavy early round emphasis on skill players.  This runs counter to those who maintain building through the trenches is the only way to truly win.  It's too soon to say whether Seattle will win multiple Super Bowls.  Nevertheless, looking at them at this early part, Seattle seems to buck both trends.   Going back to 2009, Seattle spent three first round picks on linemen (Okung, Carpenter, Irvin), and three first round picks on non linemen (Curry, Thomas, and this year's first on Harvin). 

 

Conventional wisdom also seems to pooh pooh the idea that having guys with character issues on your team is anathema to winning a championship.  But once again, facts show otherwise.  Percy Harvin, Marshawn Lynch and Bruce Irvin are among those champion Seahawks that had multiple off field issues at different points in their lives.

 

No matter what your philosophies are in building a team, an honest evaluation would leave you marveling at what Seattle has done, and if you are a Jaguars fan, hopeful their success can be replicated here.

 

Hats off to Seattle!

 

Outlier. End of Thread. If you want to build on Outliers go ahead. I agree though the team has to get better especially in the middle rounds. It is an absolute must. 

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Outlier. End of Thread. If you want to build on Outliers go ahead. I agree though the team has to get better especially in the middle rounds. It is an absolute must. 

 

I absolutely agree this is an aberration amongst exceptional teams, and aside from the general proposition of being more successful with mid to late round picks, I don't believe this is a reliable, easily replicated blueprint. 

 

The accomplishment with so many guys who would be considered afterthoughts at face value (considering their comparatively low draft status) speaks volumes about the imprecise nature of scouting, the importance of mid to late rounds in the draft, the importance of good coaching, and the importance of matching player to scheme.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Why so combative?


Their D stands out more then their QB. Their D is what really mattered.

Their D is good, but without a QB that makes the plays during the crucial stretches of games they don't make it here. They would have lost to the 49ers in the NFC championship if not much sooner with a guy like Henne or Schaub in the backfield.

 

Like I said, the crucial part is they essentially won the lottery on Wilson. Not only did they get a franchise guy, but they got him for a 3rd round pick. They were able to stick to always taking the best guys on the board and still got a franchise guy. It's not likely to happen for us, but if it does that will be what makes the difference.

 

When you spend draft after draft reaching for guys and signing cast-offs in free agency like Henne you never get anywhere. The Jaguars need to follow the seahawks lead and always take the guy that makes sense, not the guy they think they need to fill a roster spot with.

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Their D is good, but without a QB that makes the plays during the crucial stretches of games they don't make it here. They would have lost to the 49ers in the NFC championship if not much sooner with a guy like Henne or Schaub in the backfield.

 

Like I said, the crucial part is they essentially won the lottery on Wilson. Not only did they get a franchise guy, but they got him for a 3rd round pick. They were able to stick to always taking the best guys on the board and still got a franchise guy. It's not likely to happen for us, but if it does that will be what makes the difference.

 

When you spend draft after draft reaching for guys and signing cast-offs in free agency like Henne you never get anywhere. The Jaguars need to follow the seahawks lead and always take the guy that makes sense, not the guy they think they need to fill a roster spot with.

 

Not that I am knocking Seattle's drafting, but this presumes they didn't reach for any of their picks.

 

They drafted a T out of Alabama in the first round-James Carpenter.  After struggling at RT, they eventually moved him inside to G.  While there are definitely some that are worth first round picks, I'm not sure, as a general rule, taking guards in the first round is not a good thing.  If they drafted him with the idea he had the bulk and the athleticism to be a RT, and they have shifted him inside to G, that likely means they reached on the pick. 

 

Furthermore, they took Richard Sherman in the 5th round in 2011, more than a full round after they drafted WR Kris Durham, who is no longer on the team.  If Sherman is among the top 2-3 CBs in the NFL and great value at 5, then taking a WR over him who is no longer on the team has to represent a reach to some degree.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

if gus doesn't  take us to promise land ,maybe jags could consider hireing me as HC.  After all I do own tittians in madden,and gone all the way.

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snowwolf titans owner in madden.

note titans owner means im undeafted againest them. 

Not that I am knocking Seattle's drafting, but this presumes they didn't reach for any of their picks.

 

They drafted a T out of Alabama in the first round-James Carpenter.  After struggling at RT, they eventually moved him inside to G.  While there are definitely some that are worth first round picks, I'm not sure, as a general rule, taking guards in the first round is not a good thing.  If they drafted him with the idea he had the bulk and the athleticism to be a RT, and they have shifted him inside to G, that likely means they reached on the pick. 

 

Furthermore, they took Richard Sherman in the 5th round in 2011, more than a full round after they drafted WR Kris Durham, who is no longer on the team.  If Sherman is among the top 2-3 CBs in the NFL and great value at 5, then taking a WR over him who is no longer on the team has to represent a reach to some degree.

 

Sometimes an evaluation is wrong, but when you start bumping guys up because of position over guys that grade out better without respect to position you end up where the Jaguars are right now.

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On the GM in Seattle and his methods:

 

...John brings a strong skill-set gleaned from many years of experience despite remaining relatively young at age 42. He had two stints in Green Bay, a previous position in Seattle, a few years in Kansas City and a year in Washington. He certainly subscribes to the “draft and develop” approach honed in Green Bay and appreciates the valuable currency that draft picks represent in the modern NFL. However, John’s philosophy does not restrict talent acquisition to the draft; he will aggressively venture into free agency and trades to pursue a particular talent. He can even become fixated on certain players, as I sense happened with Percy Harvin this past offseason...

..... The next year, during the run-up to the 2007 draft, John (along with Aaron Rodgers) championed the cause for Cal running back Marshawn Lynch. While Lynch presented off-field concerns for some within the organization, John stood on the table for him. And when the Bills took Lynch four picks ahead of us in the draft, there was an audible groan and a few curse words from John. Of course, it was no surprise that John, once in Seattle, traded for Lynch and subsequently extended his contract.

<p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:15px;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);">Finally, John is a strong believer in constant roster turnover. There is no NFL team that “churns” more players—through tryouts, workouts, bottom-of-roster additions/deletions, etc.—than the Seahawks. As to the tension and lack of security this constant roster churn creates among players at the lower end of the roster, agents and players dealing with the Seahawks know that this is how they operate in their quest for the deepest roster possible.

 

 

( SMH at the lamebrain trying to turn this into some weird BAP platform. )

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On the GM in Seattle and his methods:

 

( SMH at the lamebrain trying to turn this into some weird BAP platform. )

 

My point is the draft is about value. When you get poor value out of your picks like the Jaguars have constantly done you lose consistently. When you get good value out of your picks like Seattle has (Sherman and Wilson are exceptional examples of it) you win consistently.

 

You can call it BAP, you can call it not reaching, you can call it whatever you want.

 

Also, I respect how you always keep it so impersonal and eschew insults in favor of content, nyc4jags.

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So, the teams that draft the better players win more? If so, that goes along with the old saying "It doesn't matter how you do it, just get it right."

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I'm trying to make myself more informed and less opinionated.

Stop saying whatever stupid thing you're talking about and pay attention to all the interesting things I have to say!

My point is the draft is about value. When you get poor value out of your picks like the Jaguars have constantly done you lose consistently. When you get good value out of your picks like Seattle has (Sherman and Wilson are exceptional examples of it) you win consistently.

 

You can call it BAP, you can call it not reaching, you can call it whatever you want.

 

Also, I respect how you always keep it so impersonal and eschew insults in favor of content, nyc4jags.

Sorry - but  I take exception with posters with constant  condescension and bad attitudes toward everyone that harp the same agenda over and over.   Don't post in that fashion and you'll get back what you give.   (or in your personal lexicon - what part of the golden rule don't you understand?)

 

This was an interesting and valid thread and you tried to reduce it to something it's not.  Bullseye made a number of valid points and you tried to trivialize it.  I think that was lame. You'll get over it. 

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Sorry - but  I take exception with posters with constant  condescension and bad attitudes toward everyone that harp the same agenda over and over.   Don't post in that fashion and you'll get back what you give.   (or in your personal lexicon - what part of the golden rule don't you understand?)

 

This was an interesting and valid thread and you tried to reduce it to something it's not.  Bullseye made a number of valid points and you tried to trivialize it.  I think that was lame. You'll get over it. 

 

I've yet to see a post from you that I thought was anything but trivial, pointless, or simply offensive, but I manage not to smear it all over the board.

 

Given your apparently low opinion of my posts I'm sure you'll get over that, though.

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They would have lost to the 49ers in the NFC championship if not much sooner with a guy like Henne or Schaub in the backfield.

 

When you spend draft after draft reaching for guys and signing cast-offs in free agency like Henne you never get anywhere.

I had a feeling some Henne hating was gonna take place here.

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I had a feeling some Henne hating was gonna take place here.

 

Talking about the reality of a guy's limit isn't hate.

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Talking about the reality of a guy's limit isn't hate.

Sure looks that way when it's posted it a thread about the Seattle Seahawks.

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Sure looks that way when it's posted it a thread about the Seattle Seahawks.

(On a Jaguars message board)

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Their D is good, but without a QB that makes the plays during the crucial stretches of games they don't make it here. They would have lost to the 49ers in the NFC championship if not much sooner with a guy like Henne or Schaub in the backfield.

 

Like I said, the crucial part is they essentially won the lottery on Wilson. Not only did they get a franchise guy, but they got him for a 3rd round pick. They were able to stick to always taking the best guys on the board and still got a franchise guy. It's not likely to happen for us, but if it does that will be what makes the difference.

 

When you spend draft after draft reaching for guys and signing cast-offs in free agency like Henne you never get anywhere. The Jaguars need to follow the seahawks lead and always take the guy that makes sense, not the guy they think they need to fill a roster spot with.

 

It's interesting that you say this, considering their D and special teams outscored the Broncos.  Had I been playing QB for Seattle, handed off 3 times and then ran to the sideline each series, it's entirely possible they still win.

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