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Election fraud or a nothingburger?

#21

(11-13-2020, 10:59 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote:
(11-13-2020, 10:35 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: The man in red or the man in plaid? Who identified him? The site and video say nothing.

https://www.wbtv.com/2020/11/13/nc-elect...stigation/

Found the story. The man is the husband of the democratic candidate for Recorder of Deeds, not the candidate for the House (what I was assuming).

Yeah, seems fishy and it sounds like it's being investigated.

Wow, that has crooked written all over it.
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#22
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2020, 09:31 AM by mikesez.)

(11-14-2020, 02:09 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 12:42 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I don't really think  you need a test, but I'd be about that Starship Troopers model. The test is service.

You can serve and still be a moron who needs constant help, getting through life. I just wanna see people prove that they have enough common sense that they can handle voting, driving, having kids, etc. There are just too many morons out there right now and Americans are getting dumber by the day. It was all foretold in this movie......


[Image: idiocracy.jpg]

Idiocracy-like situations have happened a few times in history already.  In the movie, everyone in government believes that sports drinks are better than water, even for plants. That's comparable to the ignorance of Mao when he thought people could make steel girders in backyard furnaces, or the ignorance of Mugabe when he thought his soldiers could forcibly take over farms with no loss of productivity.  

Idiocracy situations happen when there is a consolidation of power, when the dear leader can not be questioned by anyone, whether educated or ignorant.

as long as there is genuine competition of ideas in a society, the better ideas win almost every time.

Honestly, if we're going to put any faith in intelligence tests, I wouldn't administer them on voters.
I would administer them on candidates.
What if your ballot showed the person's name, their party affiliation, and their GRE score?
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#23

(11-13-2020, 09:53 PM)copycat Wrote:
(11-13-2020, 09:26 PM)mikesez Wrote: I do see the difference.  I explained the difference and why I'm still bothered by the suggestion in spite of the difference.

I'll be direct.

Say we implement an intelligence test for voting.
Do you trust your government to make that test fair for you? Fair for all of your neighbors?

Mikesez trust the government for everthing except standards on who should vote.  I have to laugh.  

On a more serious note, Jim Crowe laws were horrific, but that is not the same point.  People with no skin in the game today are voting on how much people with skin in the game should pay and that is an issue that should be addressed somehow.  It is very easy to say and vote for people that have more and are already giving more to give even more when you are contributing nothing.

We could go back to enumerated powers but THAT will ever happen.
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#24

(11-14-2020, 02:09 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 12:42 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: I don't really think  you need a test, but I'd be about that Starship Troopers model. The test is service.

You can serve and still be a moron who needs constant help, getting through life. I just wanna see people prove that they have enough common sense that they can handle voting, driving, having kids, etc. There are just too many morons out there right now and Americans are getting dumber by the day. It was all foretold in this movie......

Who cares. I don't really care how intelligent a person is when it comes to their right to vote. I care whether they have skin in the game. The Starship Troopers model gives people the right to vote and run for public office if, and only if, they serve the country in some capacity for two years. All laws that are passed have to apply to both citizens and civilians equally. This system ensures that responsibility and freedom are inseparable. There are plenty of smart people unwilling to sacrifice an ounce to enact the policies they favor. Give me someone who wants to be part of government enough to serve for a period of time, and I can almost guarantee they vote more responsibly.
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#25

(11-14-2020, 10:03 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 02:09 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: You can serve and still be a moron who needs constant help, getting through life. I just wanna see people prove that they have enough common sense that they can handle voting, driving, having kids, etc. There are just too many morons out there right now and Americans are getting dumber by the day. It was all foretold in this movie......

Who cares. I don't really care how intelligent a person is when it comes to their right to vote. I care whether they have skin in the game. The Starship Troopers model gives people the right to vote and run for public office if, and only if, they serve the country in some capacity for two years. All laws that are passed have to apply to both citizens and civilians equally. This system ensures that responsibility and freedom are inseparable. There are plenty of smart people unwilling to sacrifice an ounce to enact the policies they favor. Give me someone who wants to be part of government enough to serve for a period of time, and I can almost guarantee they vote more responsibly.

Sounds like communism, honestly.
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#26
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2020, 10:34 AM by mikesez.)

I don't think any society ever organized the way Starship Troopers works.
I know a few societies offered foreigners citizenship after they served, but, like the Roman empire, these were dictatorships where voting was either irrelevant or simply didn't happen.
However, "skin in the game" is usually taken to mean "owns property" and many, many societies have required a person to own property before they could vote. Including ours.

There's a logic to this, because in a primitive sense, the reason we vote is to avoid civil wars. And it is the property owners who would be supplying the munitions, victuals, and uniforms to the armies that might fight a civil War or revolution. At the time of the first French revolution, France, the US, and England all only let people who owned property vote. All three countries found out, in different ways, that even people with little or no property can make life very difficult for everyone else if they feel oppressed.

The other lesson to learn from looking at the three histories is, even if the desired endpoint (universal manhood suffrage) is obvious, you can't just rush into it. France tried to go from only about 1 in 100 men being allowed to vote in 1789 to letting all men vote in 1792. It was a disaster, and it quickly became a dictatorship. Then they repeated their mistake in 1848 and once again a mass of inexperienced voters inadvertently got themselves a dictator. The US and UK got to universal manhood suffrage slowly and incrementally. In France, the politicians were open about their end goals and things moved fast. In the US in the uk, the politicians were always cagey, and even hypocritical. "Oh no I don't want all the bipeds of the forest voting, I just want to expand the franchise a little bit!"
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#27

We need my Card Exchange Plan. It's our only hope.
“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

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#28

(11-14-2020, 10:12 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 10:03 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: Who cares. I don't really care how intelligent a person is when it comes to their right to vote. I care whether they have skin in the game. The Starship Troopers model gives people the right to vote and run for public office if, and only if, they serve the country in some capacity for two years. All laws that are passed have to apply to both citizens and civilians equally. This system ensures that responsibility and freedom are inseparable. There are plenty of smart people unwilling to sacrifice an ounce to enact the policies they favor. Give me someone who wants to be part of government enough to serve for a period of time, and I can almost guarantee they vote more responsibly.

Sounds like communism, honestly.

Huh?
Deciding who gets to vote has no necessary relationship to how the economy is organized.
You realize that, right?
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#29

(11-14-2020, 11:08 AM)mikesez Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 10:12 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Sounds like communism, honestly.

Huh?
Deciding who gets to vote has no necessary relationship to how the economy is organized.
You realize that, right?

Requiring people to serve the state in order to acquire privilege isn't exactly democracy in action.
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#30

(11-14-2020, 11:11 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 11:08 AM)mikesez Wrote: Huh?
Deciding who gets to vote has no necessary relationship to how the economy is organized.
You realize that, right?

Requiring people to serve the state in order to acquire privilege isn't exactly democracy in action.

Agreed, but the people who serve could all be dedicated libertarians, or fascists, or any other political philosophy besides communism.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#31

(11-14-2020, 11:29 AM)mikesez Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 11:11 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: Requiring people to serve the state in order to acquire privilege isn't exactly democracy in action.

Agreed, but the people who serve could all be dedicated libertarians, or fascists, or any other political philosophy besides communism.

You’re missing the point. No one should be required to serve the state in order to earn the privilege to exert their beliefs.
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#32

(11-14-2020, 11:40 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 11:29 AM)mikesez Wrote: Agreed, but the people who serve could all be dedicated libertarians, or fascists, or any other political philosophy besides communism.

You’re missing the point. No one should be required to serve the state in order to earn the privilege to exert their beliefs.

I agree with you, but calling something that you disagree with Communism just because you disagree with it is lazy.
My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.
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#33

(11-14-2020, 11:41 AM)mikesez Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 11:40 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: You’re missing the point. No one should be required to serve the state in order to earn the privilege to exert their beliefs.

I agree with you, but calling something that you disagree with Communism just because you disagree with it is lazy.

No, it’s because a basic tenet of communism is that the people must serve the state.
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#34

No it's not. Service to the state is just a requirement to vote or run for office. No one is required to serve the state. They don't need it to exercise their religion or express their views or teach in schools. They just need it to cast a ballot or hold office. There is absolutely no barrier to entry except one's willingness to pay the entry fee. A fee, btw, that everyone has the capacity to pay. There is nothing like this in communism whatsoever.
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#35

(11-14-2020, 11:40 AM)homebiscuit Wrote:
(11-14-2020, 11:29 AM)mikesez Wrote: Agreed, but the people who serve could all be dedicated libertarians, or fascists, or any other political philosophy besides communism.

You’re missing the point. No one should be required to serve the state in order to earn the privilege to exert their beliefs.  

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.
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#36

...that all people, even those under the age of 18, should be able to vote.
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#37

(11-14-2020, 01:26 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: ...that all people, even those under the age of 18, should be able to vote.

Why stop with voting?  If a third-grader can vote, why not buy guns, alcohol and drive a car too?
When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.
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#38

That's my point. We already have arbitrary restrictions on voting and other things. The founding fathers had more restrictions than we currently have today. Just because I want to put in a modifier, doesn't make it Communism, and just letting every single person in the world vote doesn't make it more free. I would argue that most of the current restrictions we are seeing placed on the populace is being voted in by people who know nothing and don't actually want to be free.
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#39

(11-14-2020, 03:35 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: That's my point. We already have arbitrary restrictions on voting and other things. The founding fathers had more restrictions than we currently have today. Just because I want to put in a modifier, doesn't make it Communism, and just letting every single person in the world vote doesn't make it more free. I would argue that most of the current restrictions we are seeing placed on the populace is being voted in by people who know nothing and don't actually want to be free.

A modifier, per se, doesn't automatically rise rise to the level of communism.  The other voting restrictions you reference however, don't diminish individual rights.  Your proposal mandating two years of government service does just that.  
I agree that many voters know little and most are probably to lazy to care, but I seriously doubt they prefer oppression to freedom.
When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.
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#40

Only if it restricts who can serve.
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