If Caldwell had hit with a QB ... this situation would be radically different.

(Raises glass of Jack)

Here's to another rebuild.

I disagree. No QB is winning much with the holes on our roster.

The problem is he hasn't been able to keep the talent he has found and he struggles drafting linemen on both sides of the ball.

I'll give him credit though. He has made some good trades and he has left a lot of draft picks and cap space for whomever the new GM is. I think that will help us draw the top talent at GM.

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Caldwell should never get another job as a GM again. He is a decent scout in the later rounds but can't be trusted to make a pick early in the draft.

Think about how many 1st and 2nd rounders are no longer on the team with his 8 years here. It's really bad.

Look at the 1st rounders left on the team. None are close to superstar status.

I argue that Caldwell was worse for this franchise than Gene Smith. Caldwell had 8 years and outside of 1 kept this team a bottom feeder. I don't even credit him with the playoff run because Coughlin was the man in charge.

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Caldwell should never get another job as a GM again. He is a decent scout in the later rounds but can't be trusted to make a pick early in the draft.  

Think about how many 1st and 2nd rounders are no longer on the team with his 8 years here.  It's really bad.

Look at the 1st rounders left on the team. None are close to superstar status.

I argue that Caldwell was worse for this franchise than Gene Smith.   Caldwell had 8 years and outside of 1 kept this team a bottom feeder. I don't even credit him with the playoff run because Coughlin was the man in charge.

No one and I mean no one, is as bad as Gene Smith.

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Caldwell should never get another job as a GM again. He is a decent scout in the later rounds but can't be trusted to make a pick early in the draft.  

Think about how many 1st and 2nd rounders are no longer on the team with his 8 years here.  It's really bad.

Look at the 1st rounders left on the team. None are close to superstar status.

I argue that Caldwell was worse for this franchise than Gene Smith.   Caldwell had 8 years and outside of 1 kept this team a bottom feeder. I don't even credit him with the playoff run because Coughlin was the man in charge.

No one and I mean no one, is as bad as Gene Smith.

Gene Smith had a much shorter reign here.

Gene Smith also had a cheap owner in Weaver and no where near the draft capital to work with.  Yes Gene Smith was total trash but when you factor in the amount of spending and draft capital Dave had it is ridiculous.  Dave Almost had a decade and turn this team into one of the worst franchise's of all time in the 2010-2020 Decade.  Dave was the man for most of that decade.

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Caldwell should never get another job as a GM again. He is a decent scout in the later rounds but can't be trusted to make a pick early in the draft.  

Think about how many 1st and 2nd rounders are no longer on the team with his 8 years here.  It's really bad.

Look at the 1st rounders left on the team. None are close to superstar status.

I argue that Caldwell was worse for this franchise than Gene Smith.   Caldwell had 8 years and outside of 1 kept this team a bottom feeder. I don't even credit him with the playoff run because Coughlin was the man in charge.

No one and I mean no one, is as bad as Gene Smith.

So very this.

Gene Smith was a great scout if you wanted to find someone nobody else was looking at. He was so gunshy about risk of failure that he would always opt for the high floor/low ceiling guy, and too often fell in love with one player and wasted value picking them where our selections were, rather than moving around to fit the pick to the player. What free agents did he bring in? What great trades did he make?

Caldwell's downfall was putting too much weight on holes in the roster, again picking guys who were either bad fits (Chiasson, Joeckel), or reaching for a position, and leaving much more talented players on the board (Bort, 4net). When all is said and done, his two biggest blunders will probably be extending Bort and signing Foles, as both failed to pan out and both smacked us hard in the cap. I don't know whether those were truly his decisions or not, and we may never know.

Recency bias HAS to be in play if you think Dave was worse than Gene. It's comparing apples to octopi.

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"With the 70th pick of the 2012 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select..."

That's all you need to say about who is the worst.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

If Caldwell had hit with a QB ... this situation would be radically different.

(Raises glass of Jack)

Here's to another rebuild.

I disagree. No QB is winning much with the holes on our roster.

The problem is he hasn't been able to keep the talent he has found and he struggles drafting linemen on both sides of the ball.

I'll give him credit though. He has made some good trades and he has left a lot of draft picks and cap space for whomever the new GM is. I think that will help us draw the top talent at GM.

The holes on our roster NOW. Had we selected Watson or Mahomes instead of Fournette in 2017 our entire franchise history changes. Bortles never gets extended, we pay our big name FA's, our defense remains very good even after we have to ship out aging veterans to make cap room for the young guys... The dominos are endless

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"With the 70th pick of the 2012 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select..."

That's all you need to say about who is the worst.

Was that the "starter" we got on special teams instead of some scrub QB from Wisconsin?

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I disagree. No QB is winning much with the holes on our roster.

The problem is he hasn't been able to keep the talent he has found and he struggles drafting linemen on both sides of the ball.

I'll give him credit though. He has made some good trades and he has left a lot of draft picks and cap space for whomever the new GM is. I think that will help us draw the top talent at GM.

The holes on our roster NOW. Had we selected Watson or Mahomes instead of Fournette in 2017 our entire franchise history changes. Bortles never gets extended, we pay our big name FA's, our defense remains very good even after we have to ship out aging veterans to make cap room for the young guys... The dominos are endless

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"With the 70th pick of the 2012 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select..."

That's all you need to say about who is the worst.

Was that the "starter" we got on special teams instead of some scrub QB from Wisconsin?

Ugh. If Coughlin wasn't here, would he have selected Watson or Mahomes?

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"With the 70th pick of the 2012 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select..."

That's all you need to say about who is the worst.

People laugh about it now but at the time most people were like "we got a starter! how many 3rd rounders are instant starters? he is gonna be the best Punter in the league! we needed one after Matt Turk! will people complain when he has multiple pro bowls??"

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I am a fan, not a cheerleader.

"With the 70th pick of the 2012 NFL draft, the Jacksonville Jaguars select..."

That's all you need to say about who is the worst.

People laugh about it now but at the time most people were like "we got a starter! how many 3rd rounders are instant starters? he is gonna be the best Punter in the league! we needed one after Matt Turk! will people complain when he has multiple pro bowls??"

I truly didn't mind Gene's actions up until that point. Monroe and Potroast were good, Cox serviceable; Britton got hurt. Most people hated Alualu, but he's still playing today while the rest of that draft was terrible. Gabbert was supposed to be a star and that one hurt; Rackley and Shorts 3 were decent. Blackmon is a tragedy. Then he picked a punter in the 3rd round. Now it's infamous.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Just going on record that I think Caldwell was a decent GM. He busted on tackles and QB, and couldn't change the culture here. He never got to pick his head coach, though, so I'm not sure how much of that can fall on him. Coughlin completely broke Dave's team, not just by driving away talent, but by insisting on Fournette as the pick in that draft. I think he will do great somewhere else, provided he gets a second shot. He's got to do a better job with his QB picks and tackles, though. He has proven himself to do well outside of that.

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Just going on record that I think Caldwell was a decent GM. He busted on tackles and QB, and couldn't change the culture here. He never got to pick his head coach, though, so I'm not sure how much of that can fall on him. Coughlin completely broke Dave's team, not just by driving away talent, but by insisting on Fournette as the pick in that draft. I think he will do great somewhere else, provided he gets a second shot. He's got to do a better job with his QB picks and tackles, though. He has proven himself to do well outside of that.

He never got to pick his HC?

I mean... I'm with you in throwing some blame (maybe even most of it) Coughlin's way for how things quickly turned... 

But Caldwell absolutely had a say in Bradley and Marrone's hirings. He also missed on more than just QB and tackles. He had a few duds in free agency too before Coughlin ever came along.

I think Caldwell's next job is probably more of a scouting department lead or director of player personnel. I doubt he immediately gets another shot at GM.

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Just going on record that I think Caldwell was a decent GM. He busted on tackles and QB, and couldn't change the culture here. He never got to pick his head coach, though, so I'm not sure how much of that can fall on him. Coughlin completely broke Dave's team, not just by driving away talent, but by insisting on Fournette as the pick in that draft. I think he will do great somewhere else, provided he gets a second shot. He's got to do a better job with his QB picks and tackles, though. He has proven himself to do well outside of that.

He never got to pick his HC?

I mean... I'm with you in throwing some blame (maybe even most of it) Coughlin's way for how things quickly turned... 

But Caldwell absolutely had a say in Bradley and Marrone's hirings. He also missed on more than just QB and tackles. He had a few duds in free agency too before Coughlin ever came along.

I think Caldwell's next job is probably more of a scouting department lead or director of player personnel. I doubt he immediately gets another shot at GM.

Dave made it clear in an interview after Bradley's firing that the decision to hire him was largely from the Khans.
Yes Dave had input and is not blameless. It was also a Khan decision to keep Bradley as long as he did. 

Marrone's hiring came on Coughlin's watch, but Dave tied his wagon to Doug after TC was ousted, so...

You could technically say that he never got to hire his HC, though his fingerprints are found at the crime scene.

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Caldwell should never get another job as a GM again. He is a decent scout in the later rounds but can't be trusted to make a pick early in the draft.  

Think about how many 1st and 2nd rounders are no longer on the team with his 8 years here.  It's really bad.

Look at the 1st rounders left on the team. None are close to superstar status.

I argue that Caldwell was worse for this franchise than Gene Smith.   Caldwell had 8 years and outside of 1 kept this team a bottom feeder. I don't even credit him with the playoff run because Coughlin was the man in charge.

The reason the first rounders that were good aren’t here is Coughlin. Remember Caldwell drafted Ramsey, who is a hall of fame level player. Just cause he isn’t on our team anymore doesn’t mean that was Caldwells fault. He also drafted multiple pro bowl level players. Gene best draft pick was probably Alualu, who was a long term backup. The rest of his guys were out of the league within a few years. Anyone who compares Caldwell to Gene has no clue. Gene was the all time worst GM in just about every facet.

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Caldwell pulled off some phenomenal trades, picked up pretty decent players, and then some that didn't work out as planned...Every GM has that...His plan of acquiring (good) seasoned vets and then only keeping them for 3 years and dumping them while drafting and developing players and then retaining them as NFL ready players able to step into the FA spots when they were released was seemingly a good plan but it didn't work...Caldwell's undoing came from ignoring the QB position, or trying too hard to find "a steal" at qb in the later rounds rather than to move up and go for the best in the draft. Had he drafted one of the best at the top of one of the drafts he presided over, we wouldn't be posting in a thread titled "Caldwell Fired", (IMO) anyway. I remember it was always "NEXT YEAR" We didnt find a QB we liked enough but next years draft is deeper and we will get one then...Then Next year, same thing

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He never got to pick his HC?

I mean... I'm with you in throwing some blame (maybe even most of it) Coughlin's way for how things quickly turned... 

But Caldwell absolutely had a say in Bradley and Marrone's hirings. He also missed on more than just QB and tackles. He had a few duds in free agency too before Coughlin ever came along.

I think Caldwell's next job is probably more of a scouting department lead or director of player personnel. I doubt he immediately gets another shot at GM.

Dave made it clear in an interview after Bradley's firing that the decision to hire him was largely from the Khans.
Yes Dave had input and is not blameless. It was also a Khan decision to keep Bradley as long as he did. 

Marrone's hiring came on Coughlin's watch, but Dave tied his wagon to Doug after TC was ousted, so...

You could technically say that he never got to hire his HC, though his fingerprints are found at the crime scene.

What kind of GM has ever had 8 years on the job and had no input on the HC(s).
I remember the reports about Bradley being someone Khan wanted... but to think Caldwell had 0 say in both HC's seems off to me. Also, who handicap's their GM by not allowing him to fire a failing coach?

If Khan truly didn't allow Caldwell any say in either HC hires and prevented him from making calls on staff... Khan is a problem and Caldwell was pretty much just a draft guy for like 5 of his 8 years (considering Coughlin had the final say during his years.)

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Dave made it clear in an interview after Bradley's firing that the decision to hire him was largely from the Khans.
Yes Dave had input and is not blameless. It was also a Khan decision to keep Bradley as long as he did. 

Marrone's hiring came on Coughlin's watch, but Dave tied his wagon to Doug after TC was ousted, so...

You could technically say that he never got to hire his HC, though his fingerprints are found at the crime scene.

What kind of GM has ever had 8 years on the job and had no input on the HC(s).
I remember the reports about Bradley being someone Khan wanted... but to think Caldwell had 0 say in both HC's seems off to me. Also, who handicap's their GM by not allowing him to fire a failing coach?

If Khan truly didn't allow Caldwell any say in either HC hires and prevented him from making calls on staff... Khan is a problem and Caldwell was pretty much just a draft guy for like 5 of his 8 years (considering Coughlin had the final say during his years.)

We'll probably never know to what degree Caldwell was hamstrung by Khan's insistence on the Bradley hiring and firing, but it happened. We know that. 

Does that make Khan part of the problem? Yes. 
Did Khan then further bungle things by bringing in Coughlin? Yes. 

Khan and company need to nail this next GM hire and then let the new GM hire HIS coach. Hopefully this is a lesson already learned.

(also, you're reply says "zero say" and another similar description which are exactly NOT what I described)

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What kind of GM has ever had 8 years on the job and had no input on the HC(s).
I remember the reports about Bradley being someone Khan wanted... but to think Caldwell had 0 say in both HC's seems off to me. Also, who handicap's their GM by not allowing him to fire a failing coach?

If Khan truly didn't allow Caldwell any say in either HC hires and prevented him from making calls on staff... Khan is a problem and Caldwell was pretty much just a draft guy for like 5 of his 8 years (considering Coughlin had the final say during his years.)

We'll probably never know to what degree Caldwell was hamstrung by Khan's insistence on the Bradley hiring and firing, but it happened. We know that. 

Does that make Khan part of the problem? Yes. 
Did Khan then further bungle things by bringing in Coughlin? Yes. 

Khan and company need to nail this next GM hire and then let the new GM hire HIS coach. Hopefully this is a lesson already learned.

(also, you're reply says "zero say" and another similar description which are exactly NOT what I described)

Right... I didn't mean to insinuate you said he had zero say, but the other poster seemed to give him a complete pass on 2 head coaches. So if he didn't have "zero" say... then he holds some of the blame for the 2 'meh' HCs too right?
I mean... at this point piling on Caldwell is unnecessary. Hell, I've even been one to say his tenure wasn't quite as bad as many posters seem to put out there. But of the things to excuse him on, HC wouldn't be on my personal list. More so just personnel moves made during the Coughlin tenure.

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Oh right, I tend do forget saint Caldwell never made a mistake, poor guy had his HCs picked for him haha

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I am a fan, not a cheerleader.

Caldwell's QB pick and the insistence of sticking with him for too long is what torpedoed him imo.

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