All I know is that it’s very nice to argue about game changing plays that lead to a Jags victory instead of the draft.

MEANINGFUL FOOTBALL IN DECEMBER

Yes, indeed.

---

I agree with you for the most part on Shaq.  Dewey gets my game ball - He set the tone at the start of the game that led to that hit and fumble recovery.  

However, saying Tennessee "had to pass" is one thing I disagree with.  If there is one team in this league that sticks with their running game in spite of the score, it's Tenn.  In fact, didn't they have something like a 20 point come from behind victory earlier this year by mostly running the ball with Henry?  What was even better about it was tacks fans booing their own team for trying to stick to that formula.  We've been on the wrong side of too many curb-stompings by those bastages over the years, and as carp said it, and as I told my wife yesterday afternoon, "It was glorious!."

It was glorious indeed. 

My point on the run vs pass is this:
After the fumble by Henry the Jags scored a TD on a 5 play drive and left only 10 sec on the clock before half . Jags are up 20-14
Jags get the ball to start the 2nd half with a 14 play and 7 minute consuming touchdown drive.  
Now it's 27-14 and the tacks have to score and they know it. Most teams don't sprinkle in much run in that scenario. 
However - to your credit and to the credit of carp8dm  -the tacks did try to run Henry twice at this juncture and he was stuffed on two consecutive attempts for 1 yard each. 

Now - were those stops due to the hit Shaq Quarterman put on him 40 minutes ago ( 8 minutes of game clock + halftime) ??
I really don't think so. Maybe we could ask Roy Robertson Harris who made good plays on both tackles of the kid from Yulee. 

After the ensuing punt, it was indeed too late to run the ball and the Jags added on FG points. 

Could I be wrong? Could Shaq's hit have soured Henry's resolve to perform? Could it have altered the resolve of our own defense in a motivational way that sparked them to limit the tacks in the second half of the game? 
Maybe. It's possible. I just don't think that's what happened. 
I think the kid came off the bench, and despite nearly falling down twice, managed to put a nice lick on the ball carrier and force a fumble. And that was that.

It was exactly what we needed and that's what. How many times have you seen anyone lay the wood on Henry like that? Even Titans fans were talking about it. Those plays can absolutely be momentum shifters, morale boosters or whatever you want to call them. If Quarterman doesn't lay the wood then Allen doesn't catch the fumble. How is that any different than what led to Wingard catching the interception which was also huge.

We forced four turnovers Sunday, more than any other team in the league, and Quarterman was part of that. To say he didn't make a big play, change momentum and contribute to the Jags win is just silly. We're the Jaguars. Every big play exponentially swings things to our benefit or detriment.

---

It was glorious indeed. 

My point on the run vs pass is this:
After the fumble by Henry the Jags scored a TD on a 5 play drive and left only 10 sec on the clock before half . Jags are up 20-14
Jags get the ball to start the 2nd half with a 14 play and 7 minute consuming touchdown drive.  
Now it's 27-14 and the tacks have to score and they know it. Most teams don't sprinkle in much run in that scenario. 
However - to your credit and to the credit of carp8dm  -the tacks did try to run Henry twice at this juncture and he was stuffed on two consecutive attempts for 1 yard each. 

Now - were those stops due to the hit Shaq Quarterman put on him 40 minutes ago ( 8 minutes of game clock + halftime) ??
I really don't think so. Maybe we could ask Roy Robertson Harris who made good plays on both tackles of the kid from Yulee. 

After the ensuing punt, it was indeed too late to run the ball and the Jags added on FG points. 

Could I be wrong? Could Shaq's hit have soured Henry's resolve to perform? Could it have altered the resolve of our own defense in a motivational way that sparked them to limit the tacks in the second half of the game? 
Maybe. It's possible. I just don't think that's what happened. 
I think the kid came off the bench, and despite nearly falling down twice, managed to put a nice lick on the ball carrier and force a fumble. And that was that.

It was exactly what we needed and that's what. How many times have you seen anyone lay the wood on Henry like that? Even Titans fans were talking about it. Those plays can absolutely be momentum shifters, morale boosters or whatever you want to call them. If Quarterman doesn't lay the wood then Allen doesn't catch the fumble. How is that any different than what led to Wingard catching the interception which was also huge.

We forced four turnovers Sunday, more than any other team in the league, and Quarterman was part of that. To say he didn't make a big play, change momentum and contribute to the Jags win is just silly. We're the Jaguars. Every big play exponentially swings things to our benefit or detriment.

It was a big play. 

I just didn't see it as game ball worthy compared to other players' contributions. 

I didn't see it as a big momentum shift either as we were only one point down at the time. 
That can be interpreted different ways to be certain. 

Like I said initially - I get why some are going to put more weight on it than I do. Just trying to look at it context of what the other "game ball nominees"  mentioned in this thread did. 

I feel silly trying to rank it against other good performances in the first place - so I'll just let everyone else's opinion resonate here after this post.

---

1 point down... The half is winding down.

Henry is running all over us. They are about to get into the red zone.

Our defense looks like total garbage for the entire half.

And then BOOM! Quarterman blows up Henry.

It absolutely changed the trajectory of the game. Remember that there was less than 3 minutes left in the 2nd Quarter when Henry fumbled.

I mean, damn. They were about to go up 21 to 13. And to say they weren't is silly. They drove 2 times and got TDs easy both times. And they were chunking us the entire 1st and 2nd Quarter.

But it's OK. No worries. There were great plays made all over the field by our boys. But to ignore the fact that Quarterman changed the momentum is kinda silly... No offense. That fumble was the turning point.

Dewey's hit in the 1st quarter still resulted in a TD. Quarterman's hit ended the the tacks run.

But that's just obvious. A person's opinion is just that. I'm just pointing out the facts.

---

1 point down...  The half is winding down.

Henry is running all over us.  They are about to get into the red zone. 

Our defense looks like total garbage for the entire half. 

And then BOOM!  Quarterman blows up Henry.

It absolutely changed the trajectory of the game.  Remember that there was less than 3 minutes left in the 2nd Quarter when Henry fumbled. 

I mean, damn.  They were about to go up 21 to 13.  And to say they weren't is silly.  They drove 2 times and got TDs easy both times.  And they were chunking us the entire 1st and 2nd Quarter. 

But it's OK.  No worries.  There were great plays made all over the field by our boys.  But to ignore the fact that Quarterman changed the momentum is kinda silly...  No offense.  That fumble was the turning point. 

Dewey's hit in the 1st quarter still resulted in a TD.  Quarterman's hit ended the the tacks run.

But that's just obvious.  A person's opinion is just that.  I'm just pointing out the facts.

No. You're not.

Shaq had a great hit that led to a fumble. Fact.
It was the turning point in the game that led to the Jags win. Opinion.

---

1 point down...  The half is winding down.

Henry is running all over us.  They are about to get into the red zone. 

Our defense looks like total garbage for the entire half. 

And then BOOM!  Quarterman blows up Henry.

It absolutely changed the trajectory of the game.  Remember that there was less than 3 minutes left in the 2nd Quarter when Henry fumbled. 

I mean, damn.  They were about to go up 21 to 13.  And to say they weren't is silly.  They drove 2 times and got TDs easy both times.  And they were chunking us the entire 1st and 2nd Quarter. 

But it's OK.  No worries.  There were great plays made all over the field by our boys.  But to ignore the fact that Quarterman changed the momentum is kinda silly...  No offense.  That fumble was the turning point. 

Dewey's hit in the 1st quarter still resulted in a TD.  Quarterman's hit ended the the tacks run.

But that's just obvious.  A person's opinion is just that.  I'm just pointing out the facts.

No. You're not.

Shaq had a great hit that led to a fumble. Fact.
It was the turning point in the game that led to the Jags win. Opinion.

How many rushing yards did Henry have after that fumble?

---

Regarding what changed momentum of the game...

It was the defense that changed momentum. The offense was consistent. But the defense is what resulted in the game changing moment. Henry was killing us. The only thing that stopped the momentum of Henry killing us was the fumble that was caused by Shaq Quarterman's hit. Was the hit a team play? Hell yes it was. But it was Quarterman that laid down the wood.

Why ignore the key player in the key play?

All the other turnovers were gravy. But it wasn't until we made that one first play that changed the feel of that game. Instead of being 21 to 13. It became 20 to 14. And then Lawrence took it from there in the 2nd half.

But if not for that fumble, who knows if Lawrence even gets the ball back in the 2nd Quarter. Ya'll are acting like that hit wasn't the change in momentum. It absolutely was.

---

No. You're not.

Shaq had a great hit that led to a fumble. Fact.
It was the turning point in the game that led to the Jags win. Opinion.

How many rushing yards did Henry have after that fumble?

And?

Do you have evidence that the lack of rushing yards was due in part because of the fumble? Or was it the offense continuing to score points which led to the tacks being forced to throw?

What you think is fact is actually opinion.

---

How many rushing yards did Henry have after that fumble?

And?

Do you have evidence that the lack of rushing yards was due in part because of the fumble? Or was it the offense continuing to score points which led to the tacks being forced to throw?

What you think is fact is actually opinion.

So, do you know how many yards Henry had after that fumble?  Or...  No?

---

And?

Do you have evidence that the lack of rushing yards was due in part because of the fumble? Or was it the offense continuing to score points which led to the tacks being forced to throw?

What you think is fact is actually opinion.

So, do you know how many yards Henry had after that fumble?  Or...  No?

Are you for real?

Why does it matter that he had 2 yards in the 2nd half? That doesn't mean it's a fact that the fumble lead to him having 2 yards. That's not a direct correlation.

---

1 point down...  The half is winding down.

Henry is running all over us.  They are about to get into the red zone. 

Our defense looks like total garbage for the entire half. 

And then BOOM!  Quarterman blows up Henry.

It absolutely changed the trajectory of the game.  Remember that there was less than 3 minutes left in the 2nd Quarter when Henry fumbled. 

I mean, damn.  They were about to go up 21 to 13.  And to say they weren't is silly.  They drove 2 times and got TDs easy both times.  And they were chunking us the entire 1st and 2nd Quarter. 

But it's OK.  No worries.  There were great plays made all over the field by our boys.  But to ignore the fact that Quarterman changed the momentum is kinda silly...  No offense.  That fumble was the turning point. 

Dewey's hit in the 1st quarter still resulted in a TD.  Quarterman's hit ended the the tacks run.

But that's just obvious.  A person's opinion is just that.  I'm just pointing out the facts.

bolded is ridiculous 

You have no idea of the outcome of that red zone trip if no fumble. 
You're making baseless assumptions.

---

So, do you know how many yards Henry had after that fumble?  Or...  No?

Are you for real?

Why does it matter that he had 2 yards in the 2nd half? That doesn't mean it's a fact that the fumble lead to him having 2 yards. That's not a direct correlation.

OK.  

Sorry...  I just thought that cause and effect results would mean something to you. 

But you're right, there are tons of plays that make up a game.  

I just think Shaq Q's is up there in terms of changing the game.

Especially when you realize that Henry was killing us right up untill the fumble and then we scored 14 points before the tacks got the ball back...  

But I guess it's true that one cannot fully admit that any variable from one point in time to another can be a result of another based on the quantum mechanics of a split second in time.  

Either way, it was a great game!  And, to me, I think it was Shaq's hit that changed the entire game...  (I mean, Henry disappeared after that hit.  But whatever)

---

1 point down...  The half is winding down.

Henry is running all over us.  They are about to get into the red zone. 

Our defense looks like total garbage for the entire half. 

And then BOOM!  Quarterman blows up Henry.

It absolutely changed the trajectory of the game.  Remember that there was less than 3 minutes left in the 2nd Quarter when Henry fumbled. 

I mean, damn.  They were about to go up 21 to 13.  And to say they weren't is silly.  They drove 2 times and got TDs easy both times.  And they were chunking us the entire 1st and 2nd Quarter. 

But it's OK.  No worries.  There were great plays made all over the field by our boys.  But to ignore the fact that Quarterman changed the momentum is kinda silly...  No offense.  That fumble was the turning point. 

Dewey's hit in the 1st quarter still resulted in a TD.  Quarterman's hit ended the the tacks run.

But that's just obvious.  A person's opinion is just that.  I'm just pointing out the facts.

bolded is ridiculous 

You have no idea of the outcome of that red zone trip if no fumble. 
You're making baseless assumptions.

If past if prolouge and we all know how bad out D had been playing....  

Come on.  You are honestly going to tell me that you didn't see that play and think as Henry was crossing into the 20 that they were absolutely going to score a TD?  LOL

OK.  Fine.  I'm sure you are super positive all the time and thing that whenever the oppoenents get into our red zone that our D is gonna stop them.  Because, you know.  That's what we've been doing all season...  LOL  Come on man.  Just be honest.

The tacks had 3 possesions.  2 of them resulted in a TD.  The 3rd was a great play by Walker.  

Score's 13-14...  And all of a sudden they are driving again and it's looking bleak.  Next play is a play action, and then a swing to Henry and he's got a whole head of steam as he chugs down the past the 30 and into the 20 yard line.  If there is no fumble there, you think we figure out how to not stop them??

And look at the time?  Less than 2 minutes left.  So let's say we do stop them.  We don't have the time we would have had.  So you honestly think we'd have scored a TD before the half expires???  Come one?

You are telling me that I'm making stuff up.  But you are too.  You are assuming that the game would have turned out just the same even if Henry got out of bounds at the 20.  

You honestly think that if Henry got out of bounds and they had the ball at the 20, with all the momentum they had as a running team against us that the game would have turned out how it actually did because Shaq caused that fumble?

Really?  That's the hill you're going to stand on?  Dude, just be honest.

Shaq Deserves a game ball.  I'm not even saying anything else.  He made the big play that changed the game.  I'm not saying he was the best player of the game.  I'm not saying Shaq is the best LB on the team.  

But dude, that play was THE play.  

Honestly, I don't know how I get into these discussions.  LOL.  I'm not being ridiculous here.  I'm just saying Shaq should get a game ball.  You know, they give like 3 or 4 of them out per game...

---

bolded is ridiculous 

You have no idea of the outcome of that red zone trip if no fumble. 
You're making baseless assumptions.

If past if prolouge and we all know how bad out D had been playing....  

Come on.  You are honestly going to tell me that you didn't see that play and think as Henry was crossing into the 20 that they were absolutely going to score a TD?  LOL

OK.  Fine.  I'm sure you are super positive all the time and thing that whenever the oppoenents get into our red zone that our D is gonna stop them.  Because, you know.  That's what we've been doing all season...  LOL  Come on man.  Just be honest.

The tacks had 3 possesions.  2 of them resulted in a TD.  The 3rd was a great play by Walker.  

Score's 13-14...  And all of a sudden they are driving again and it's looking bleak.  Next play is a play action, and then a swing to Henry and he's got a whole head of steam as he chugs down the past the 30 and into the 20 yard line.  If there is no fumble there, you think we figure out how to not stop them??

And look at the time?  Less than 2 minutes left.  So let's say we do stop them.  We don't have the time we would have had. 

...
...
...

Yeah. We've held opponents to three points in the red zone many times this season. 
Did you happen to watch the ravens game??

Despite all of your wild assumptions that the Jags were doomed if Henry doesn't fumble  here - the 2023 Jacksonville Jaguars have been quite stingy about giving up yards in the red zone this season. 

They have allowed 3.3 yards per rush and only a 48% passing completion percentage inside the 20. 

That is far better than what they've done between the opponents 10 and the red zone. 
Look it up.

It's ridiculous to assume they were going to hang seven points if Henry doesn't fumble.

---

If past if prolouge and we all know how bad out D had been playing....  

Come on.  You are honestly going to tell me that you didn't see that play and think as Henry was crossing into the 20 that they were absolutely going to score a TD?  LOL

OK.  Fine.  I'm sure you are super positive all the time and thing that whenever the oppoenents get into our red zone that our D is gonna stop them.  Because, you know.  That's what we've been doing all season...  LOL  Come on man.  Just be honest.

The tacks had 3 possesions.  2 of them resulted in a TD.  The 3rd was a great play by Walker.  

Score's 13-14...  And all of a sudden they are driving again and it's looking bleak.  Next play is a play action, and then a swing to Henry and he's got a whole head of steam as he chugs down the past the 30 and into the 20 yard line.  If there is no fumble there, you think we figure out how to not stop them??

And look at the time?  Less than 2 minutes left.  So let's say we do stop them.  We don't have the time we would have had. 

...
...
...

Yeah. We've held opponents to three points in the red zone many times this season. 
Did you happen to watch the ravens game??

Despite all of your wild assumptions that the Jags were doomed if Henry doesn't fumble  here - the 2023 Jacksonville Jaguars have been quite stingy about giving up yards in the red zone this season. 

They have allowed 3.3 yards per rush and only a 48% passing completion percentage inside the 20. 

That is far better than what they've done between the opponents 10 and the red zone. 
Look it up.

I mean, we could go back and forth on this....  Did you happen to watch the Lions game????

Henry was averaging 3 yards in the last 4 games before us, and then averaged 7 yards this Sunday.  Look it up.

But even with a 7 yard average, they stopped feeding him...  

I wonder why.

Again, I'm not saying Shaq Quarterman was the best player on the team.  Or that he was even the sole reason for the fumble...  But to ignore the impact of that hit and what it meant at that moment...  It's just kinda not providing the flow of how the game changed with that turn-over.

That fumble by Henry was the key pivot point of the game.

Instead of them scoring...  WE scored and then we scored again at the beginning of the 3rd.  That wouldn't have happened without the Henry fumble.  That's just...  How it is...


EDIT - The fumble happened at 1:49 in the Second Quarter for crying out loud!!! If Henry held the ball, there's no way we score to end the half...

---

Yeah. We've held opponents to three points in the red zone many times this season. 
Did you happen to watch the ravens game??

Despite all of your wild assumptions that the Jags were doomed if Henry doesn't fumble  here - the 2023 Jacksonville Jaguars have been quite stingy about giving up yards in the red zone this season. 

They have allowed 3.3 yards per rush and only a 48% passing completion percentage inside the 20. 

That is far better than what they've done between the opponents 10 and the red zone. 
Look it up.

I mean, we could go back and forth on this....  Did you happen to watch the Lions game????

Henry was averaging 3 yards in the last 4 games before us, and then averaged 7 yards this Sunday.  Look it up.

But even with a 7 yard average, they stopped feeding him...  

I wonder why.

Again, I'm not saying Shaq Quarterman was the best player on the team.  Or that he was even the sole reason for the fumble...  But to ignore the impact of that hit and what it meant at that moment...  It's just kinda not providing the flow of how the game changed with that turn-over.

That fumble by Henry was the key pivot point of the game.

Instead of them scoring...  WE scored and then we scored again at the beginning of the 3rd.  That wouldn't have happened without the Henry fumble.  That's just...  How it is...

Yes, that's how it is. Inside your brain - after assuming a bunch of things that are in no way guaranteed to happen. 

Enjoy fantasy land, I guess. You're gonna see it how you want to see it regardless of facts.

---

I mean, we could go back and forth on this....  Did you happen to watch the Lions game????

Henry was averaging 3 yards in the last 4 games before us, and then averaged 7 yards this Sunday.  Look it up.

But even with a 7 yard average, they stopped feeding him...  

I wonder why.

Again, I'm not saying Shaq Quarterman was the best player on the team.  Or that he was even the sole reason for the fumble...  But to ignore the impact of that hit and what it meant at that moment...  It's just kinda not providing the flow of how the game changed with that turn-over.

That fumble by Henry was the key pivot point of the game.

Instead of them scoring...  WE scored and then we scored again at the beginning of the 3rd.  That wouldn't have happened without the Henry fumble.  That's just...  How it is...

Yes, that's how it is. Inside your brain - after assuming a bunch of things that are in no way guaranteed to happen. 

Enjoy fantasy land, I guess. You're gonna see it how you want to see it regardless of facts.

I could say the exact same to you.  

Agree to disagree.

I always enjoy our debates...  I normally agree with you.  But there are obvious moments that we clearly are at odds.

Such is life.

EDIT - Just in case you didn't see it... The fumble happened at 1:49 in the 2nd. Do you really think if there was no fumble, that we'd have been able to answer?

---

Yes, that's how it is. Inside your brain - after assuming a bunch of things that are in no way guaranteed to happen. 

Enjoy fantasy land, I guess. You're gonna see it how you want to see it regardless of facts.

I could say the exact same to you.  

Agree to disagree.

I always enjoy our debates...  I normally agree with you.  But there are obvious moments that we clearly are at odds.

Such is life.

EDIT -  Just in case you didn't see it...  The fumble happened at 1:49 in the 2nd.  Do you really think if there was no fumble, that we'd have been able to answer?

All good, my friend. 

I think if they didn't fumble, we had just as much chance of holding them to 3 as we had to let them score a TD.

I think our red zone defensive stats support that. 

And whether we would answer with a score cannot be known. 
We did, in fact, score on the first possession of the second half - which would have been the "answer" you are asking about if there wasn't time to score in the first half. 
And, as it turned out,  that would have still been enough point differential for a win.

---

Are you for real?

Why does it matter that he had 2 yards in the 2nd half? That doesn't mean it's a fact that the fumble lead to him having 2 yards. That's not a direct correlation.

OK.  

Sorry...  I just thought that cause and effect results would mean something to you. 

But you're right, there are tons of plays that make up a game.  

I just think Shaq Q's is up there in terms of changing the game.

Especially when you realize that Henry was killing us right up untill the fumble and then we scored 14 points before the tacks got the ball back...  

But I guess it's true that one cannot fully admit that any variable from one point in time to another can be a result of another based on the quantum mechanics of a split second in time.  

Either way, it was a great game!  And, to me, I think it was Shaq's hit that changed the entire game...  (I mean, Henry disappeared after that hit.  But whatever)

There ya go! That's an opinion and not a fact.

---

I could say the exact same to you.  

Agree to disagree.

I always enjoy our debates...  I normally agree with you.  But there are obvious moments that we clearly are at odds.

Such is life.

EDIT -  Just in case you didn't see it...  The fumble happened at 1:49 in the 2nd.  Do you really think if there was no fumble, that we'd have been able to answer?

All good, my friend. 

I think if they didn't fumble, we had just as much chance of holding them to 3 as we had to let them score a TD.

I think our red zone defensive stats support that. 

And whether we would answer with a score cannot be known. 
We did, in fact, score on the first possession of the second half - which would have been the "answer" you are asking about if there wasn't time to score in the first half. 
And, as it turned out,  that would have still been enough point differential for a win.

This is why it's hard to argue too much with a dude like you.

The team won the game.  

As a kid I used to watch Hoosiers all the time.  And this team reminds me of that.  Dudes that work they butts off and eventually there's a moment that they capitalize on.  Shaq Q did that, and I love his heart for it.

That moment was just one in several moments that needed to happen for such a definitive win.  But, in my mind, as I watched that hit...  That was the hit that changed everything.

---

Quarterman gets a game ball for balling out and de-balling Henry.

There. Is that how this works?

---

"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption