On the children and cross dressing:

My wife watched this "reality" show called I am Jazz.

It was a show over many seasons where a real set of parents raised their real son as a daughter throughout his childhood. They even put this poor child through a sex change well before their 18th birthday.  Years later that same child now Person regrets the decision and lives in a world of depression.

I'm aware of that show.  They even made children's books based on the show.  I was not aware the kid now has regrets.  That's truly awful.  Not only do the parents need to question their own judgement, but also TLC and many others.
Edit: It's not clear whether or not Jazz is truly having regrets. Jazz is 23 now and had surgery right around age 18. Obviously as a reality TV star, the show is still going on, everything we hear Jazz say is being tailored to an audience.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

On the children and cross dressing:

My wife watched this "reality" show called I am Jazz.

It was a show over many seasons where a real set of parents raised their real son as a daughter throughout his childhood. They even put this poor child through a sex change well before their 18th birthday.  Years later that same child now Person regrets the decision and lives in a world of depression.

In my opinion that should be considered child abuse.  The sick "parents" obviously wanted a daughter and got a son.

Children at a young age look for "direction" and learn from their parents.  These "parents" obviously pointed the child in a wrong direction based on their own "feelings".  As a result there is now another physically and mentally ill person among us.

Let me guess... the "parents" are democrat.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Should have just led with the last sentence. Clearly, there are some really stupid parents out there or this conversation would not be happening. I don't sympathize with folks taking kids to drag shows. It's inane. 

I didn't tiptoe around anything.  

Yes, I am sure there are some innocuous versions of this stuff out there, but I still think it's ill-advised to involve children. 

I thought it was pretty clear that I'm on the side of parents making these common sense decisions about their children's welfare. There isn't some sudden and urgent need to try and legislate every little tributary of the vast river of child welfare.  
The law is nothing more than political posturing anyway.
 Do you actually believe it is going to positively alter the course of some kid who may have otherwise seen a chubby dude prance around in a bathing suit a few years before they could get their head around that? I don't. 

Young children these days are internet savvy at a very early age and will be exposed to all brands of hideousness. That's real life. 
It's up to parents to parent them. Not the governor or state legislature. 
We could spend the entire calendar of legislative sessions passing laws to "protect children" if we made a new law for every little common sense decision parents in our state crap the bed on. 

I only entered the convo to point out that this local venue's lawsuit was likely more symbolic than monetarily driven, but there's my ten cents since we're here.

So if that's the case why have age limits on other vices or rights? Kids get denied the right to drive, to purchase guns, cigarettes, beer, porn, entrance to bars and clubs, the right to vote...we've got a society full of prohibitions based on age. Why is this thing different when the dangers associated with it for children are so very clear? And why are these gigantic corporations so vested in the acceptance of this particular vice? I don't agree with the explanation above that it's about control...no CEO is sitting in his office thinking, "I can wait to make Main Street accept drag queens so I'm going to have Target advertise 'tuckable swimwear' to really stick it to them" (except maybe the media guys who get tv ratings from it). So why is drag suddenly this huge issue in our society when it's a rather insignificant minority and why have MCWW's taken up this mantle of obsession?

It's an interesting thought experiment, and I believe that the answer is both organic and planned.

The US has a long history of using propaganda against foreign and domestic threats to secure its global dominance. Our defense agencies have studied human behavior and explored countless ways to manipulate the masses. Likewise, corporations have devoted millions of dollars to exploit the natural desires of human beings in the form of marketing, and, over time, have been slowly turned into a few giant conglomerates. They have been levying their financial power to buy politicians to create policy that stifles competition and frees them to synergize better within their individual companies. This merger of DC and Wall Street has an incredible ability to influence the masses, especially since their interests have become entwined, and we are fools to think we are beyond their reach. We are all being manipulated every day.

Meanwhile, progressives of the 20th century were busy creating entire philosophical trees that use language manipulation, ideological subversion, and moral relativism to break down the pillars of a society. If you think that last statement is a conspiracy, you need to read more. It used to be widely considered hogwash in academic institutions in the US, but it has risen to the dominant belief system in various institutions by emulating religion and creating converts. These new proselytes have been taking their beliefs to the top of various institutions and allowing their rabid beliefs to inform their hiring practices (which studies support). The goal of this movement, of course, was to usher in a new, better world. However, they did not succeed in this mission.

Instead, the government/corporate power became fully realized under the Obama administration, which also happened to come equipped with progressive ideology. This is not an attack on democrats. In fact, I think both parties are exploited by Wall Street. That said, I think Obama created a unity in the country that hadn't been there before, and the conditions were perfect for an unofficial partnership between the state and the private sector. I think the progressives in that administration saw the opportunity to circumvent their obstacles in the form of bureaucracy, and the capitalists saw an opportunity to expand their power. What manifested is a global-corporate government that will control the means of production, by exercising government control via the power of the corporate dollar. 

Don't want a pundit who says the wrong thing? We won't pay for your advertising until he's removed. No government violation of free speech needed. Don't want to wait for a law to be passed by a toothless congress? Enforce it via corporate freedom to associate. Let them "decide" who they want as customers. No red tape needed. Almost any need that can't be legislated can be enforced by corporations. All the laws that favor corporate rule can easily be passed as long as the public is focused on something else. 

I lay all of that out to suggest that these powers don't care about any one cause. While we fight amongst ourselves, they are giving more power and money to the elite and shrinking the middle class. They are distributing American money around the world to increase their labor pool and consumer base. They use the manipulation of language to create divisive issues that fracture society. They create the problem via culture wars, then have the government "solve" the problem. They are breaking down national and religious identity so that people will be more open to the idea of a global government and more dependent on them for survival. 

It looks something like this: they pick issues that will be divisive and highlight them over and over through various mediums and publications. They then seek out believers and get their opinions on the issues that stand contrary to the public sentiment and highlight their voices. Then they send out narratives that reinforce the narrative, so the general public thinks it's a much bigger issue. As long as there is an "other," people will be quick to take the opposing side. So, for example, with the trans issue, they say that trans people don't have rights. Then they highlight blatant abuses of the trans community to rile up an opposing base (the traditional base). Then they find the voices of the believers, especially those in positions of authority, to condemn opposition to this divisive idea. Then they reinforce that narrative across all platforms and start citing examples of "bigots" who object to this intentionally divisive issue. Considering that the masses see this scattered across every news headline, they assume the experts are right and they are in the minority, even though they aren't.

None of these issues themselves are as important as breaking down a homogenous culture. In fact, if you look at the issues, almost ALL of them are intentionally fractional. None of them are based in real statistics or have realistic solutions. That said, I do think the more powerful media moguls get to force their particular vices onto the general public. It's the advantage of being at the top of that particular food chain, but I still don't think it's an agenda, per se.

TLDR: The long-winded point is just to say that I think that the tools being used to manipulate the public are well thought out and purposeful, but that public outrage is organic, and the masses don't have any particular agenda in mind. The CEO and company marketing is organic. They just want to have good ESG scores and be able to continue to be allowed a seat at the global table. The politicians and the policies they create are organic. They spend 90% of their time on the phone trying to get money from donors. All of them, whether it's the public, government, or corporate leaders, are either reacting or retaliating to the stimulus that is being put in front of them, and they are ultimately being taken advantage of for political and financial gain. It's only a very small group of elites, relatively speaking, that are working with and across party lines, corporate sectors, and media outlets to make themselves more powerful. I know they think themselves noble, but there's nothing new under the sun.

I could literally give you quotes from philosophers on every single point I made here. Nothing I said here is controversial. It's all in the literature.

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Target feeling the heat.

https://twitter.com/claire_goforth/statu...40928?s=20

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https://twitter.com/claire_goforth/statu...40928?s=20

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And we have 2 great examples of my point in one post.

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On the children and cross dressing:

My wife watched this "reality" show called I am Jazz.

It was a show over many seasons where a real set of parents raised their real son as a daughter throughout his childhood. They even put this poor child through a sex change well before their 18th birthday.  Years later that same child now Person regrets the decision and lives in a world of depression.

I'm aware of that show.  They even made children's books based on the show.  I was not aware the kid now has regrets.  That's truly awful.  Not only do the parents need to question their own judgement, but also TLC and many others. 
Edit: It's not clear whether or not Jazz is truly having regrets. Jazz is 23 now and had surgery right around age 18.  Obviously as a reality TV star, the show is still going on, everything we hear Jazz say is being tailored to an audience.

Yea just do a quick youtube search. There are tons of videos covering it.  Jazz stays in depression and has blown up to over 300lbs.

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I'm aware of that show.  They even made children's books based on the show.  I was not aware the kid now has regrets.  That's truly awful.  Not only do the parents need to question their own judgement, but also TLC and many others. 
Edit: It's not clear whether or not Jazz is truly having regrets. Jazz is 23 now and had surgery right around age 18.  Obviously as a reality TV star, the show is still going on, everything we hear Jazz say is being tailored to an audience.

Yea just do a quick youtube search. There are tons of videos covering it.  Jazz stays in depression and has blown up to over 300lbs.

First thing I see is a video that is about a month old. It's "her" speaking to the camera saying "she" happy and Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro are wrong.  Right from the horse's mouth.  Now I think there is a lot of self deception in play.  "Her" brothers went to UF but "she" went to Harvard.  Harvard doesn't let "her" in without that reality show and the reality show doesn't happen without the dysphoria.  And frankly going to Harvard, just by itself, should produce times of emotional distress and seeming regret.  It's supposed to be hard!

All of which is to say, I agree that "she" will be in what they call dysphoria for the rest of "her" life, but, I don't think we will ever have totally rigorous evidence of that.  Which is fine.  This is my religious belief, I don't need evidence.  The mom was way too quick to start "affirming" the female identity and probably was the one who suggested it in the first place.  I'm sure about that.  I'm not sure how we can ever address this as government and as voters going forward.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Target feeling the heat.

https://twitter.com/claire_goforth/statu...40928?s=20

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https://twitter.com/claire_goforth/statu...40928?s=20

Unfortunately, death threats go with the territory nowadays.

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Target feeling the heat.

They are just moving it to the back of the store.



Someone should go into Target, buy it all and then return it all at the 90 day mark when they can't sell it. Take the boycott to the extreme.

Target feeling the heat.

...and tuckin' the meat!! #hammock

Search Alex Stein 99 and look at his Target ad, he actually went to the store and tried it on.

Sent from my SM-T970 using Tapatalk

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I think it’s important to make the distinction that Florida did not target drag queens until the drag queens targeted children.

Do you really believe there is an actual movement among drag queens to involve children in their wacky little art form?

Or is it more likely that a very small group of questionable parents are unable to draw a line between their involvement and/or enjoyment of drag and making responsible decisions about their kids' sexual education timeline? 

I believe it is firmly the latter - and as with so many other instances, we are simply seeing parents making stupid decisions about how they care for their children.

Not sure who else the target audience of 'Drag Story Hour' at the Children's section of public libraries would be.

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"Remember Red, Hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."  - Andy Dufresne, The Shawshank Redemption

Do you really believe there is an actual movement among drag queens to involve children in their wacky little art form?

Or is it more likely that a very small group of questionable parents are unable to draw a line between their involvement and/or enjoyment of drag and making responsible decisions about their kids' sexual education timeline? 

I believe it is firmly the latter - and as with so many other instances, we are simply seeing parents making stupid decisions about how they care for their children.

Not sure who else the target audience of 'Drag Story Hour' at the Children's section of public libraries would be.

Welp.. That theory got destroyed lolol

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Do you really believe there is an actual movement among drag queens to involve children in their wacky little art form?

Or is it more likely that a very small group of questionable parents are unable to draw a line between their involvement and/or enjoyment of drag and making responsible decisions about their kids' sexual education timeline? 

I believe it is firmly the latter - and as with so many other instances, we are simply seeing parents making stupid decisions about how they care for their children.

Not sure who else the target audience of 'Drag Story Hour' at the Children's section of public libraries would be.

 I've already touched on that. How many libraries in how many towns are we talking about here? 
Is this widespread or is it isolated? 

Their website claims more than a dozen cities, but it would appear only the chapters in large metro areas with a liberal majority gained any traction - and several communities have already shut down the practice without any state government involvement. 

It does seem a bit creepy and wholly unnecessary though. 

I guess this whole thing (like so many debates around the queer community) come back to whether or not you believe someone chooses to be gay or not. 

I don't. 

I'm not a proponent of anything that may confuse a child as they navigate childhood, adolescence and determine their own feelings about sexual identity. I do think that gay people are going to feel the way they do regardless, and straight folks are also going to be resolute regardless of outside influence.  There's just no point in confusing those young folks in the grey area who are having a more difficult time working through their biology, hormones and feelings. 

Unfortunately, as much as conservative folks believe this drag and trans stuff is swaying their otherwise straight children to be queer in some way, the gay community feels that conservative-christian establishments are ruining the upbringing of gay adolescents by trying to "fix" them, when there is nothing wrong. They're just gay. 

Pretty difficult impasse when either side has adopted opposing scientific views and there is religion involved.

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Not sure who else the target audience of 'Drag Story Hour' at the Children's section of public libraries would be.

 I've already touched on that. How many libraries in how many towns are we talking about here? 
Is this widespread or is it isolated? 

Their website claims more than a dozen cities, but it would appear only the chapters in large metro areas with a liberal majority gained any traction - and several communities have already shut down the practice without any state government involvement. 

It does seem a bit creepy and wholly unnecessary though. 

I guess this whole thing (like so many debates around the queer community) come back to whether or not you believe someone chooses to be gay or not. 

I don't. 

I'm not a proponent of anything that may confuse a child as they navigate childhood, adolescence and determine their own feelings about sexual identity. I do think that gay people are going to feel the way they do regardless, and straight folks are also going to be resolute regardless of outside influence.  There's just no point in confusing those young folks in the grey area who are having a more difficult time working through their biology, hormones and feelings. 

Unfortunately, as much as conservative folks believe this drag and trans stuff is swaying their otherwise straight children to be queer in some way, the gay community feels that conservative-christian establishments are ruining the upbringing of gay adolescents by trying to "fix" them, when there is nothing wrong. They're just gay. 

Pretty difficult impasse when either side has adopted opposing scientific views and there is religion involved.

I think we found Mikesez a dance partner..

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 I've already touched on that. How many libraries in how many towns are we talking about here? 
Is this widespread or is it isolated? 

Their website claims more than a dozen cities, but it would appear only the chapters in large metro areas with a liberal majority gained any traction - and several communities have already shut down the practice without any state government involvement. 

It does seem a bit creepy and wholly unnecessary though. 

I guess this whole thing (like so many debates around the queer community) come back to whether or not you believe someone chooses to be gay or not. 

I don't. 

I'm not a proponent of anything that may confuse a child as they navigate childhood, adolescence and determine their own feelings about sexual identity. I do think that gay people are going to feel the way they do regardless, and straight folks are also going to be resolute regardless of outside influence.  There's just no point in confusing those young folks in the grey area who are having a more difficult time working through their biology, hormones and feelings. 

Unfortunately, as much as conservative folks believe this drag and trans stuff is swaying their otherwise straight children to be queer in some way, the gay community feels that conservative-christian establishments are ruining the upbringing of gay adolescents by trying to "fix" them, when there is nothing wrong. They're just gay. 

Pretty difficult impasse when either side has adopted opposing scientific views and there is religion involved.

I think we found Mikesez a dance partner..

I've never seen that particular board member post anything that resonates with me at all. 

But, OK. 

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On topic:
Is it correct to assume you believe everyone is born straight biologically and anything else is a perversion?

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I think we found Mikesez a dance partner..

I've never seen that particular board member post anything that resonates with me at all. 

But, OK. 

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On topic:
Is it correct to assume you believe everyone is born straight biologically and anything else is a perversion?

Of course you don't.. He's in the same bubble..

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I've never seen that particular board member post anything that resonates with me at all. 

But, OK. 

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On topic:
Is it correct to assume you believe everyone is born straight biologically and anything else is a perversion?

Of course you don't.. He's in the same bubble..

So, no answer, just nonsensically trying to rope me in with someone else you disagree with.

OK

What strain are you smoking today, LOL?

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NYC, I think your argument is sound if people are hardwired, but I don't think that's the case. We are an extremely adaptable species, as evidenced by our disparate cultures and histories. We can do terrible things. We can do great things. Societies will largely conform

Let's look at something that is completely outside the pale: Pedophilia.

I believe that many pedophiles are hardwired to like kids. I think they are broken, and they don't have a choice in who they find attractive (to some degree). Let's say that our whole society accepted that narrative as a fact. Does that mean they should be allowed to diddle kids? No. Of course not. Does that mean it should be accepted in such a way that children are encouraged to spend time around them to make them feel more valued as humans? Should we encourage pedophile story hour at our school libraries, even though there's nothing sexual in nature about it? Understanding human dignity does not have to mean that we hold all lifestyles in the same regard. Yet even though we can reasonably conclude this, there is a very small segment of our society that would not have a problem normalizing pedophilia.

If we followed the same track as everything else, we would see a rise in isolated incidents of "normal" people abusing a pedophile. Then we'd be told that we shouldn't treat people differently just because they have a preference. Then we'd be told that we should accept these people for who they are. Then we would see examples of this group being celebrated for their courage in being honest about their preferences. Then we'd get Pedophile story hour in libraries and start calling people who oppose these types of interactions bigots. All the while, there would be a slowly increasing show of support among well-meaning, but naive people who take up the mantle of the pedophile because they elevate the morality of acceptance over morality of protection. These are the same people who would mistakenly believe it's ok for a 9 year old to consent to an adult. Do you genuinely think pedophilia wouldn't increase under these circumstances?

Do you know there's a whole group on the left that already believes children are sexual beings and that we "repress" them in the name of innocence? I said this way back in the day. If sex is wholly good, why shouldn't children do it? If trans is good, why shouldn't children do it? We can take this principle as far as we dare. It's a completely disingenuous tactic that is abused by people who are interested in creating a world that better suits their needs.

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NYC, I think your argument is sound if people are hardwired, but I don't think that's the case. We are an extremely adaptable species, as evidenced by our disparate cultures and histories. We can do terrible things. We can do great things. Societies will largely conform

Let's look at something that is completely outside the pale: Pedophilia.

I believe that many pedophiles are hardwired to like kids. I think they are broken, and they don't have a choice in who they find attractive (to some degree). Let's say that our whole society accepted that narrative as a fact. Does that mean they should be allowed to diddle kids? No. Of course not. Does that mean it should be accepted in such a way that children are encouraged to spend time around them to make them feel more valued as humans? Should we encourage pedophile story hour at our school libraries, even though there's nothing sexual in nature about it? Understanding human dignity does not have to mean that we hold all lifestyles in the same regard. Yet even though we can reasonably conclude this, there is a very small segment of our society that would not have a problem normalizing pedophilia.

If we followed the same track as everything else, we would see a rise in isolated incidents of "normal" people abusing a pedophile. Then we'd be told that we shouldn't treat people differently just because they have a preference. Then we'd be told that we should accept these people for who they are. Then we would see examples of this group being celebrated for their courage in being honest about their preferences. Then we'd get Pedophile story hour in libraries and start calling people who oppose these types of interactions bigots. All the while, there would be a slowly increasing show of support among well-meaning, but naive people who take up the mantle of the pedophile because they elevate the morality of acceptance over morality of protection. These are the same people who would mistakenly believe it's ok for a 9 year old to consent to an adult. Do you genuinely think pedophilia wouldn't increase under these circumstances?

Do you know there's a whole group on the left that already believes children are sexual beings and that we "repress" them in the name of innocence? I said this way back in the day. If sex is wholly good, why shouldn't children do it? If trans is good, why shouldn't children do it? We can take this principle as far as we dare. It's a completely disingenuous tactic that is abused by people who are interested in creating a world that better suits their needs.

I don't see how comparing legal homosexuality among consenting adults and the illegal sexual abuse of children is going to make anyone's point here.

I also don't believe it is wise for someone to attribute some sicko pedophile philosophy in a broad sweeping generalization to "the left." 

Humans are capable of insanely perverse and evil things. Let's not try and dice that up and assign it to conservatives or liberals. That's horribly disingenuous. Bad people don't exist or propagate out of one political universe or the other. 

The catholic church is admittedly responsible for covering up thousands of cases of sexual abuse and there are certainly thousands more undocumented. Are we going to attempt to assign that to a political group of voters? 
Sounds like a fools errand. 

I wasn't trying to make an argument or even really debate anything by the way.

I was just pointing out that two distinctly separate beliefs about biology/DNA/Chromosomes are always going to divide conservatives and liberals about homosexuality and its root cause. 

One group believes it's a natural thing that occurs biologically and the other believes it is not. 
I'm certainly not going to tilt at the windmill here and try to change anyone's mind over that.

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Of course you don't.. He's in the same bubble..

So, no answer, just nonsensically trying to rope me in with someone else you disagree with.

OK

What strain are you smoking today, LOL?

Hell I forget.. Pretty decent one though lol

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I didn't compare homosexuality to pedophilia. I took a subject that is currently against the pale, pedophilia, and I compared it to the currently debated trans issue, following the same path of acceptance, normalization, and celebration. This wasn't to try to mischaracterize the left, but rather to show how acceptance is different than celebration, and that the latter will inevitably lead to certain behaviors becoming more common.

I didn't make any sweeping generalizations about the left in that post, either. Let me be clear that I am not saying that all people on the left wholly support pedophilia. I don't believe that, and it was never my intent to suggest that. I only mentioned the left because I think it's the only place where the subject of child love can be advocated without outright rejection and disgust. Obviously, the Catholic church has had their problems, but they had to hide it. Nobody on the right (that I know of) is trying to justify why it's ok for priests to sleep with kids. I can speak of many philosophers who have helped shaped the modern progressive movement that are advocates of child sexuality, and I believe this is an underlying and unspoken problem that is pervasive in progressive ideology. Kids are not inherently sexual. The attempt to familiarize them with sexuality comes from adults who improperly elevate their own sexual desires.

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