Why are either of them required to provide quotes of public statements?

Because a prosecutor will likely call them to the witness stand?

---

Whether or not a prosecutor calls either to testify is irrelevant and would simply be for grandstanding effect anyway.  If a public statement was made, there is already an existing record, which can be otherwise introduced and authenticated.  In what form were these alleged statements made and why haven't they been produced?

---

When you get into the endzone, act like you've been there before.

Waiting to board a flight and was just struck by the insane irony of  a sleazy new york city real estate developer with daddy's money somehow managing to convince a bunch of middle-America white guys to consider civil war because he lied to them.

It's just so insanely backwards.

For the life of me I can't get why folks don't see through his pathetic grift.

Maybe living n NYC and seeing him on the six oclock news every other month for ripping off a partner, vendor, contractor or tenant gave me the insight required, but man, this clown is working you guys that still fall for it.

Yourea inability to understand the appeal of a Trump is astounding.  Posters that support him continue to tell you his short comings.  They actually acknowledge them.  They spell them out and you continue to ignore their grievances.  You acknowledge there is corruption, but as long as a corrupt system supports you every thing is just fine. 

I watched the movie Elysium today.  It was a great metaphor as to where we are headed as a society.  In that scenario you believe you will be living off world in the lap of luxury.  Unless you realize you’ll be down here with the rest of us scum that you look down upon then that is exactly the world we are headed to.

---

Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Waiting to board a flight and was just struck by the insane irony of  a sleazy new york city real estate developer with daddy's money somehow managing to convince a bunch of middle-America white guys to consider civil war because he lied to them.

It's just so insanely backwards.

For the life of me I can't get why folks don't see through his pathetic grift.

Maybe living n NYC and seeing him on the six oclock news every other month for ripping off a partner, vendor, contractor or tenant gave me the insight required, but man, this clown is working you guys that still fall for it.

Yourea inability to understand the appeal of a Trump is astounding.  Posters that support him continue to tell you his short comings.  They actually acknowledge them.  They spell them out and you continue to ignore their grievances.  You acknowledge there is corruption, but as long as a corrupt system supports you every thing is just fine. 

I watched the movie Elysium today.  It was a great metaphor as to where we are headed as a society.  In that scenario you believe you will be living off world in the lap of luxury.  Unless you realize you’ll be down here with the rest of us scum that you look down upon then that is exactly the world we are headed to.

Your inability to understand us is equally astounding.
Whatever reason you have foir saying the government elites don't represent you, there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent you, that specific part of you, whatever it is, better than Trump does.  Who would actually work hard and achieve more than a tax cut with 4 years in power.
And he's not fighting corruption.  He never has and he never will.  He only fights for himself.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Nah. We understand you perfectly. You are comfortable and ignorant. It's the only way you can say with a straight face that there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent us in this broken and corrupted system. No one can challenge it without being destroyed.

So, you get those (on both sides) who are looking for the fighter who will break themselves while throwing themselves against the bulwark created by our elites, and you, the person too comfortable to acknowledge the reality that our government has been overtaken by rich, powerful people who are slowly stripping us of our power and freedoms. You wallow in your willful ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor. It's a good thing you like the mud.

---

The thing I can't wrap my brain around is the idea that the entire cultural left used to understand that the elites were a problem. Now you're their little lapdogs. Look around? What do they ever change about themselves? They just change our cultural values in ways that make us more useful to them.

---

Nah. We understand you perfectly. You are comfortable and ignorant. It's the only way you can say with a straight face that there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent us in this broken and corrupted system. No one can challenge it without being destroyed.

So, you get those (on both sides) who are looking for the fighter who will break themselves while throwing themselves against the bulwark created by our elites, and you, the person too comfortable to acknowledge the reality that our government has been overtaken by rich, powerful people who are slowly stripping us of our power and freedoms. You wallow in your willful ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor. It's a good thing you like the mud.

---

The thing I can't wrap my brain around is the idea that the entire cultural left used to understand that the elites were a problem. Now you're their little lapdogs. Look around? What do they ever change about themselves? They just change our cultural values in ways that make us more useful to them.

The bolded is this pathetic little mantra you lot have adopted rather than face the reality that the world is passing you by and progressive thought is winning the day. 

You are the willfully ignorant

You choose to believe theory over plain fact. 

You choose to invent narratives to explain failures by the politicians you vote for. 

Your stupid assumption that the left are somehow ignorant of money and power structure is yet another idiotic attempt to explain away your inability to come to terms with the fact that the world around you is changing and your antiquated ideals are being left in the dust. If you think the left isn't fighting against the elites - you aren't paying attention outside of your little orbit.  At all. 

Our freedom and power are not being stripped away. We're simply evolving beyond your world view. 
All of this angst and lashing out you display toward me and the left in general is probably a product of your refusal to accept this reality. 

I've never seen such massive and widespread delusion among a group of voters when their guy just simply lost the election.

---

I've struggled to understand people who subscribe to conspiracy theories, and the best I can come up with is that they are smart enough to connect a bunch of facts and organize them into a grand conspiracy theory, but not self-aware enough to understand what they are doing. I remember back in the early 1970s, when I was very young, I listened to an hour long radio show that had as its premise that Paul McCartney was dead and it was being covered up. At the end of that show, I was entirely convinced that Paul was actually dead. In the subsequent days and weeks, I came to understand what had happened, and I learned a lesson from it. But it seems like there are a lot of people out there who never come to an understanding about how they are misleading themselves. I chalk it up to a person having a lot of brains, but a total lack of self awareness.

---

Because a prosecutor will likely call them to the witness stand?

---

Whether or not a prosecutor calls either to testify is irrelevant and would simply be for grandstanding effect anyway.  If a public statement was made, there is already an existing record, which can be otherwise introduced and authenticated.  In what form were these alleged statements made and why haven't they been produced?

Are you a lawyer? I'm not, but these questions from you strike me as particularly ignorant.  The more specific Pence and Barr get in their public statements today, the harder time they will have being cross examined when the trial occurs.  They have to save their credibility for when it counts.  This is true in trials of all kinds.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Nah. We understand you perfectly. You are comfortable and ignorant. It's the only way you can say with a straight face that there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent us in this broken and corrupted system. No one can challenge it without being destroyed.

So, you get those (on both sides) who are looking for the fighter who will break themselves while throwing themselves against the bulwark created by our elites, and you, the person too comfortable to acknowledge the reality that our government has been overtaken by rich, powerful people who are slowly stripping us of our power and freedoms. You wallow in your willful ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor. It's a good thing you like the mud.

---

The thing I can't wrap my brain around is the idea that the entire cultural left used to understand that the elites were a problem. Now you're their little lapdogs. Look around? What do they ever change about themselves? They just change our cultural values in ways that make us more useful to them.

The bolded is this pathetic little mantra you lot have adopted rather than face the reality that the world is passing you by and progressive thought is winning the day. 

You are the willfully ignorant

You choose to believe theory over plain fact. 

You choose to invent narratives to explain failures by the politicians you vote for. 

Your stupid assumption that the left are somehow ignorant of money and power structure is yet another idiotic attempt to explain away your inability to come to terms with the fact that the world around you is changing and your antiquated ideals are being left in the dust. If you think the left isn't fighting against the elites - you aren't paying attention outside of your little orbit.  At all. 

Our freedom and power are not being stripped away. We're simply evolving beyond your world view. 
All of this angst and lashing out you display toward me and the left in general is probably a product of your refusal to accept this reality. 

I've never seen such massive and widespread delusion among a group of voters when their guy just simply lost the election.

For the record, I did not vote for Trump. Nevertheless, I see very clearly the centralization of power in this country into the federal government, so yes, progressive thought is winning and those so called "antiquated ideals" including federalism, independence, self reliance, and autonomy are being reduced to just a memory (and a despised one at that). This is not societal evolution, it's devolution back to the time before the enlightenment when one class was to rule while all the rest exist for their pleasure and support. It's not conspiracy theory to see how our government has been subverted; first they made you "educated", then they made you dependent, now they make you subservient. We get it, you love Big Brother; you just have to accept that many of us will not ever do so.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

The bolded is this pathetic little mantra you lot have adopted rather than face the reality that the world is passing you by and progressive thought is winning the day. 

You are the willfully ignorant

You choose to believe theory over plain fact. 

You choose to invent narratives to explain failures by the politicians you vote for. 

Your stupid assumption that the left are somehow ignorant of money and power structure is yet another idiotic attempt to explain away your inability to come to terms with the fact that the world around you is changing and your antiquated ideals are being left in the dust. If you think the left isn't fighting against the elites - you aren't paying attention outside of your little orbit.  At all. 

Our freedom and power are not being stripped away. We're simply evolving beyond your world view. 
All of this angst and lashing out you display toward me and the left in general is probably a product of your refusal to accept this reality. 

I've never seen such massive and widespread delusion among a group of voters when their guy just simply lost the election.

For the record, I did not vote for Trump. Nevertheless, I see very clearly the centralization of power in this country into the federal government, so yes, progressive thought is winning and those so called "antiquated ideals" including federalism, independence, self reliance, and autonomy are being reduced to just a memory (and a despised one at that). This is not societal evolution, it's devolution back to the time before the enlightenment when one class was to rule while all the rest exist for their pleasure and support. It's not conspiracy theory to see how our government has been subverted; first they made you "educated", then they made you dependent, now they make you subservient. We get it, you love Big Brother; you just have to accept that many of us will not ever do so.

The bold is bluster with no substance. 

Illustrate to me how this is happening right now, practically, in our society. 

Prove to me this is happening with something besides "I don't like the messaging in the barbie movie." 

How am I more beholden to Big Brother right now than I was 20 years ago? Prove it.

---

For the record, I did not vote for Trump. Nevertheless, I see very clearly the centralization of power in this country into the federal government, so yes, progressive thought is winning and those so called "antiquated ideals" including federalism, independence, self reliance, and autonomy are being reduced to just a memory (and a despised one at that). This is not societal evolution, it's devolution back to the time before the enlightenment when one class was to rule while all the rest exist for their pleasure and support. It's not conspiracy theory to see how our government has been subverted; first they made you "educated", then they made you dependent, now they make you subservient. We get it, you love Big Brother; you just have to accept that many of us will not ever do so.

The bold is bluster with no substance. 

Illustrate to me how this is happening right now, practically, in our society. 

Prove to me this is happening with something besides "I don't like the messaging in the barbie movie." 

How am I more beholden to Big Brother right now than I was 20 years ago? Prove it.

Education: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...20science.

Key takeaway: The USA rates 38th out of 71 in math and 24th in science. American "education" lags behind much of the developed world because our Society depends on an educated and moral people.

Welfare: https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cro...s%20period.

Key takeaway: US spending on welfare increased by 437% from 1977 to 2020 outpacing education, roads, corrections, and a host of other public services. Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses.

Big Brother: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Gove...rowth.html

Key takeaway: "As the table shows, government expenditures have grown enormously during the past century. As late as 1913, for example, even in a group of seventeen economically advanced countries, government expenditures averaged only about 13 percent of GDP. At most (in Austria, France, and Italy), they came to just 17 percent, and for the United States they were less than 8 percent. Taxation and government employment were at similarly low levels. In contrast, by 1996, government expenditures in the same seventeen countries had reached nearly 46 percent of GDP. Sweden’s were the highest, at more than 64 percent, and U.S. expenditures reached more than 32 percent.1 Taxation, government employment, and other aspects of government had expanded similarly. Moreover, governments have vastly increased the scope and societal penetration of their regulation in ways that spending measures do not reflect. In the United States, for example, private individuals and firms spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to comply with government regulations aimed at reducing air and water pollution, lowering health risks, and eliminating workplace discrimination against women and members of various ethnic and other protected groups."

You are more beholden to the feds today than at any time in history absent any period of conscription.

So yeah, believe what you like in your cocoon, but these illustrations don't even look at the expansion of criminal law, the rise of the regulatory state, or the power and influence of lobbyists, international corporations, and dark money to leverage federal power against you. Nope, the simple, practical facts are that you are more and more owned by an all-consuming federal leviathan that will continue to spend and grow and tax until there's nothing left of you and me. But hey, you've got "free and fair" elections that are above reproach! Lol.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

The bold is bluster with no substance. 

Illustrate to me how this is happening right now, practically, in our society. 

Prove to me this is happening with something besides "I don't like the messaging in the barbie movie." 

How am I more beholden to Big Brother right now than I was 20 years ago? Prove it.

Education: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...20science.

Key takeaway: The USA rates 38th out of 71 in math and 24th in science. American "education" lags behind much of the developed world because our Society depends on an educated and moral people.

Welfare: https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cro...s%20period.

Key takeaway: US spending on welfare increased by 437% from 1977 to 2020 outpacing education, roads, corrections, and a host of other public services. Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses.

Big Brother: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Gove...rowth.html

Key takeaway: "As the table shows, government expenditures have grown enormously during the past century. As late as 1913, for example, even in a group of seventeen economically advanced countries, government expenditures averaged only about 13 percent of GDP. At most (in Austria, France, and Italy), they came to just 17 percent, and for the United States they were less than 8 percent. Taxation and government employment were at similarly low levels. In contrast, by 1996, government expenditures in the same seventeen countries had reached nearly 46 percent of GDP. Sweden’s were the highest, at more than 64 percent, and U.S. expenditures reached more than 32 percent.1 Taxation, government employment, and other aspects of government had expanded similarly. Moreover, governments have vastly increased the scope and societal penetration of their regulation in ways that spending measures do not reflect. In the United States, for example, private individuals and firms spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to comply with government regulations aimed at reducing air and water pollution, lowering health risks, and eliminating workplace discrimination against women and members of various ethnic and other protected groups."

You are more beholden to the feds today than at any time in history absent any period of conscription.

So yeah, believe what you like in your cocoon, but these illustrations don't even look at the expansion of criminal law, the rise of the regulatory state, or the power and influence of lobbyists, international corporations, and dark money to leverage federal power against you. Nope, the simple, practical facts are that you are more and more owned by an all-consuming federal leviathan that will continue to spend and grow and tax until there's nothing left of you and me. But hey, you've got "free and fair" elections that are above reproach! Lol.

You don't like the way the gov spends money in 3 key areas and you don't like big business being made to comply with pollution standards. 

Great!! 
I don't like at least two of those things either. 

None of them are doing jack [BLEEP] to make me more beholden to big brother. Not one [BLEEP] tiny iota. 

And then there's the stuff in bold that you can't muster a shred of proof over, but you think everybody ought to be afraid of it anyway. 

So - you got nothin. 
Exactly as I thought.

---

Education: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...20science.

Key takeaway: The USA rates 38th out of 71 in math and 24th in science. American "education" lags behind much of the developed world because our Society depends on an educated and moral people.

Welfare: https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cro...s%20period.

Key takeaway: US spending on welfare increased by 437% from 1977 to 2020 outpacing education, roads, corrections, and a host of other public services. Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses.

Big Brother: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Gove...rowth.html

Key takeaway: "As the table shows, government expenditures have grown enormously during the past century. As late as 1913, for example, even in a group of seventeen economically advanced countries, government expenditures averaged only about 13 percent of GDP. At most (in Austria, France, and Italy), they came to just 17 percent, and for the United States they were less than 8 percent. Taxation and government employment were at similarly low levels. In contrast, by 1996, government expenditures in the same seventeen countries had reached nearly 46 percent of GDP. Sweden’s were the highest, at more than 64 percent, and U.S. expenditures reached more than 32 percent.1 Taxation, government employment, and other aspects of government had expanded similarly. Moreover, governments have vastly increased the scope and societal penetration of their regulation in ways that spending measures do not reflect. In the United States, for example, private individuals and firms spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to comply with government regulations aimed at reducing air and water pollution, lowering health risks, and eliminating workplace discrimination against women and members of various ethnic and other protected groups."

You are more beholden to the feds today than at any time in history absent any period of conscription.

So yeah, believe what you like in your cocoon, but these illustrations don't even look at the expansion of criminal law, the rise of the regulatory state, or the power and influence of lobbyists, international corporations, and dark money to leverage federal power against you. Nope, the simple, practical facts are that you are more and more owned by an all-consuming federal leviathan that will continue to spend and grow and tax until there's nothing left of you and me. But hey, you've got "free and fair" elections that are above reproach! Lol.

You don't like the way the gov spends money in 3 key areas and you don't like big business being made to comply with pollution standards. 

Great!! 
I don't like at least two of those things either. 

None of them are doing jack [BLEEP] to make me more beholden to big brother. Not one [BLEEP] tiny iota. 

And then there's the stuff in bold that you can't muster a shred of proof over, but you think everybody ought to be afraid of it anyway. 

So - you got nothin. 
Exactly as I thought.

You have got to be the most blind [BLEEP] idiot who's ever logged into this forum.. You surpass Mikesez, JagsBeach and TMD.. Your thinking is pure garbage and pathetic.

Have another drink, alky.. I bet you smell like piss..

---

Yourea inability to understand the appeal of a Trump is astounding.  Posters that support him continue to tell you his short comings.  They actually acknowledge them.  They spell them out and you continue to ignore their grievances.  You acknowledge there is corruption, but as long as a corrupt system supports you every thing is just fine. 

I watched the movie Elysium today.  It was a great metaphor as to where we are headed as a society.  In that scenario you believe you will be living off world in the lap of luxury.  Unless you realize you’ll be down here with the rest of us scum that you look down upon then that is exactly the world we are headed to.

Your inability to understand us is equally astounding.
Whatever reason you have foir saying the government elites don't represent you, there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent you, that specific part of you, whatever it is, better than Trump does.  Who would actually work hard and achieve more than a tax cut with 4 years in power.
And he's not fighting corruption.  He never has and he never will.  He only fights for himself.

At least you aren't pretending any more! Some thing productive has come from this discussion after all!

---

Education: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/...20science.

Key takeaway: The USA rates 38th out of 71 in math and 24th in science. American "education" lags behind much of the developed world because our Society depends on an educated and moral people.

Welfare: https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cro...s%20period.

Key takeaway: US spending on welfare increased by 437% from 1977 to 2020 outpacing education, roads, corrections, and a host of other public services. Bread and circuses man, bread and circuses.

Big Brother: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Gove...rowth.html

Key takeaway: "As the table shows, government expenditures have grown enormously during the past century. As late as 1913, for example, even in a group of seventeen economically advanced countries, government expenditures averaged only about 13 percent of GDP. At most (in Austria, France, and Italy), they came to just 17 percent, and for the United States they were less than 8 percent. Taxation and government employment were at similarly low levels. In contrast, by 1996, government expenditures in the same seventeen countries had reached nearly 46 percent of GDP. Sweden’s were the highest, at more than 64 percent, and U.S. expenditures reached more than 32 percent.1 Taxation, government employment, and other aspects of government had expanded similarly. Moreover, governments have vastly increased the scope and societal penetration of their regulation in ways that spending measures do not reflect. In the United States, for example, private individuals and firms spend hundreds of billions of dollars each year to comply with government regulations aimed at reducing air and water pollution, lowering health risks, and eliminating workplace discrimination against women and members of various ethnic and other protected groups."

You are more beholden to the feds today than at any time in history absent any period of conscription.

So yeah, believe what you like in your cocoon, but these illustrations don't even look at the expansion of criminal law, the rise of the regulatory state, or the power and influence of lobbyists, international corporations, and dark money to leverage federal power against you. Nope, the simple, practical facts are that you are more and more owned by an all-consuming federal leviathan that will continue to spend and grow and tax until there's nothing left of you and me. But hey, you've got "free and fair" elections that are above reproach! Lol.

You don't like the way the gov spends money in 3 key areas and you don't like big business being made to comply with pollution standards. 

Great!! 
I don't like at least two of those things either. 

None of them are doing jack [BLEEP] to make me more beholden to big brother. Not one [BLEEP] tiny iota. 

And then there's the stuff in bold that you can't muster a shred of proof over, but you think everybody ought to be afraid of it anyway. 

So - you got nothin. 
Exactly as I thought.

I can only show you, I can't make you see.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You don't like the way the gov spends money in 3 key areas and you don't like big business being made to comply with pollution standards. 

Great!! 
I don't like at least two of those things either. 

None of them are doing jack [BLEEP] to make me more beholden to big brother. Not one [BLEEP] tiny iota. 

And then there's the stuff in bold that you can't muster a shred of proof over, but you think everybody ought to be afraid of it anyway. 

So - you got nothin. 
Exactly as I thought.

You have got to be the most blind [BLEEP] idiot who's ever logged into this forum.. You surpass Mikesez, JagsBeach and TMD.. Your thinking is pure garbage and pathetic.

Have another drink, alky.. I bet you smell like piss..

LOL

Anytime you get upset, I know I'm saying something right. Have at it.  
I mean, I wish you didn't suck at insults so badly so we could be entertained at least, but it is what it is.

---

You have got to be the most blind [BLEEP] idiot who's ever logged into this forum.. You surpass Mikesez, JagsBeach and TMD.. Your thinking is pure garbage and pathetic.

Have another drink, alky.. I bet you smell like piss..

LOL

Anytime you get upset, I know I'm saying something right. Have at it.  
I mean, I wish you didn't suck at insults so badly so we could be entertained at least, but it is what it is.

Not upset at all.. Just speaking my mind.

---

Your inability to understand us is equally astounding.
Whatever reason you have foir saying the government elites don't represent you, there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent you, that specific part of you, whatever it is, better than Trump does.  Who would actually work hard and achieve more than a tax cut with 4 years in power.
And he's not fighting corruption.  He never has and he never will.  He only fights for himself.

At least you aren't pretending any more! Some thing productive has come from this discussion after all!

Us = anti-Trump people. Of any party.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

At least you aren't pretending any more! Some thing productive has come from this discussion after all!

Us = anti-Trump people. Of any party.

Rrrriggghtttt.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Nah. We understand you perfectly. You are comfortable and ignorant. It's the only way you can say with a straight face that there are tens of millions of Americans who could represent us in this broken and corrupted system. No one can challenge it without being destroyed.

So, you get those (on both sides) who are looking for the fighter who will break themselves while throwing themselves against the bulwark created by our elites, and you, the person too comfortable to acknowledge the reality that our government has been overtaken by rich, powerful people who are slowly stripping us of our power and freedoms. You wallow in your willful ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor. It's a good thing you like the mud.

---

The thing I can't wrap my brain around is the idea that the entire cultural left used to understand that the elites were a problem. Now you're their little lapdogs. Look around? What do they ever change about themselves? They just change our cultural values in ways that make us more useful to them.

The bolded is this pathetic little mantra you lot have adopted rather than face the reality that the world is passing you by and progressive thought is winning the day. 

You are the willfully ignorant

You choose to believe theory over plain fact. 

You choose to invent narratives to explain failures by the politicians you vote for. 

Your stupid assumption that the left are somehow ignorant of money and power structure is yet another idiotic attempt to explain away your inability to come to terms with the fact that the world around you is changing and your antiquated ideals are being left in the dust. If you think the left isn't fighting against the elites - you aren't paying attention outside of your little orbit.  At all. 

Our freedom and power are not being stripped away. We're simply evolving beyond your world view. 
All of this angst and lashing out you display toward me and the left in general is probably a product of your refusal to accept this reality. 

I've never seen such massive and widespread delusion among a group of voters when their guy just simply lost the election.

Lol. You have such an unearned sense of superiority. What right do you have to condescend against those who feel the weight of the government hand? What is your expertise other than consumer of news? I have no problem with your opinions, but you overvalue your worth to these conversations. Your great enlightenment was at the airport and that Trump is a charlatan? Wow. 

I don't "invent" narratives. I take my time, use my eyes and my brain, and I start trying to connect ideas that are rooted in substance. Even though folks like Marty want to distill these ideas into "conspiracy theories," I do my best to try to share these ideas with reason and data that you casually ignore when it's convenient. If you don't want to see it, you won't. If you don't take the time to consider it, how will ever understand the problem? You don't even take the time to address the issues in most posts. If this is like every other argument you "win," you will take 90% of this post, discard it, and attack the single weakest position you feel you can attack. You say you come here to learn, but what are you "learning?" Seems a lot like stone throwing to me. 

You don't want to take the effort to wrap your close-minded little brain about the ways the world is ACTUALLY changing. You accept platitudes and FACTS from people you consider to be "experts," only because they are trotted out in front of you by people who have power to deem them as such. Anyone who voices a different opinion, regardless of their credentials, are instantly dismissed and discredited by the same people who have the power to deem them as such. 

That wouldn't be a problem in a true free market, where people could challenge the status quo and create opportunities for themselves where gaps rise and fall. However, in a corporate oligarchy, this just isn't the case. You read articles chosen and crafted by editors who work for companies that want to make money. Those companies are supposed to be selling their audience to advertisers who are competing for that market. That system has been inverted. 

The WFA represents 90% of the world's advertising dollars. Companies who want access to that money need to comply with the standards that are laid out by GARM, a flagship project of the WEC. The WEC is an unelected body of elites that see corporations as the drivers of the future, not us. Networks aren't selling their access to an audience as the primary source of income. Instead, they are competing to be the best representatives of these imposed corporate guidelines. Those are facts. Not conspiracy. An unelected body is organizing their power and money to tailor the content that you and I see. This is not a small problem. This is not (or should not be) business as usual. I don't see how you can look at that and say we have more power, not less. This is just one illustration of many that don't even begin to scratch the surface of the problem we, as Americans, actually face in this country.

I don't make excuses for "my politicians." I don't believe there are any "my politicians." I think that MOST of the people in our highest offices are bought and paid for. Even twenty years ago, this was largely considered common knowledge, especially from those on the left. Trump is not "my guy." There is no "my guy." My complaints have always been about the ways our government is slowly being sold to the highest bidder, its power being leveraged for profit, its systems being less transparent and accountable, and its messaging becoming increasingly divisive and authoritarian. That is not progress. 

I am easily the most liberal "conservative" on this board. I do not fear change. I do not fear new ideas. I am growing increasingly frustrated with the comfortable, arrogant "moderates" who repeat what they are told and refuse to consider the obvious problems that are occurring in this country so that a very small group of people can become wealthier. I can look at almost every issue and see how it creates instability that somehow makes rich people richer. The numbers are all there.

And, lastly, I know there are people on the left who claim they are fighting the elites as they attend the Met Gala for $35,000 a person in their designer dresses. Tax the rich, they say, even though they hold power and the transfer of wealth to the rich somehow continues to rise. Sure. They are doing a great job as they protest abortion and riot in the streets about the .000006% of blacks per capita who are killed by cops every year (as opposed to the .000006% of whites per capita). The horror. Oh, and all the while, they live the traditional conservative life, teaching conservative values to their kids... find a good spouse, stay married, have kids in wedlock, work hard, be financially responsible, keep our kids of sugar and technology and give them a good education. But let's make sure the rest of these people use public education, with public transportation, and know they can be any gender, have kids out of wedlock (or even better, get an abortion), get on welfare, live on the streets. The left is really crushing it. 

Make no mistake, none of this is advocating for the entrenched politicians on the right, which you will see conservatives on this board consistently denounce as frauds. Why? Because they do the exact same thing as the hucksters on the left. They are for sale. They just use a different divisive message. You, and Mikey, and Marty keep believing the magic trick.

---

The bolded is this pathetic little mantra you lot have adopted rather than face the reality that the world is passing you by and progressive thought is winning the day. 

You are the willfully ignorant

You choose to believe theory over plain fact. 

You choose to invent narratives to explain failures by the politicians you vote for. 

Your stupid assumption that the left are somehow ignorant of money and power structure is yet another idiotic attempt to explain away your inability to come to terms with the fact that the world around you is changing and your antiquated ideals are being left in the dust. If you think the left isn't fighting against the elites - you aren't paying attention outside of your little orbit.  At all. 

Our freedom and power are not being stripped away. We're simply evolving beyond your world view. 
All of this angst and lashing out you display toward me and the left in general is probably a product of your refusal to accept this reality. 

I've never seen such massive and widespread delusion among a group of voters when their guy just simply lost the election.

Oh boy, here we go again
Lol. You have such an unearned sense of superiority.  What right do you have to condescend against those who feel the weight of the government hand?  Buddy, it's not my fault you're scared of the boogieman! You want me to feel badly because I don't believe the fear mongering tripe you believe?  Sorry,  it just doesn't work that way. What is your expertise other than consumer of news? I have no problem with your opinions, but you overvalue your worth to these conversations. Bolded there is all in your head. You're projecting. Your great enlightenment was at the airport and that Trump is a charlatan? Wow. Nah. No enlightenment pal. Was just reflecting on how ironic some of it is. 

I don't "invent" narratives. I take my time, use my eyes and my brain, and I start trying to connect ideas that are rooted in substance. i.e. connecting dots that don't align and making unwise assumptions  Even though folks like Marty want to distill these ideas into "conspiracy theories," I do my best to try to share these ideas with reason and data that you casually ignore when it's convenient. You've not given me any supportive data at any juncture If you don't want to see it, you won't. If you don't take the time to consider it, how will ever understand the problem? You don't even take the time to address the issues in most posts. If this is like every other argument you "win," you will take 90% of this post, discard it, and attack the single weakest position you feel you can attack. You say you come here to learn, but what are you "learning?" Seems a lot like stone throwing to me. I do end up throwing a lot of stones here in response to insults and condescension. It works both ways. I don't just light into someone who isn't using aggressive language.

You don't want to take the effort to wrap your close-minded little brain about the ways the world is ACTUALLY changing. You accept platitudes and FACTS from people you consider to be "experts," only because they are trotted out in front of you by people who have power to deem them as such. Anyone who voices a different opinion, regardless of their credentials, are instantly dismissed and discredited by the same people who have the power to deem them as such. Yes, yes, yes... All of the experts that find their way into the newspapers and 37 different media outlets are all puppets of the dark regime. Sure, pal. You're right and ALLLL of them are wrong. Sounds legit. How the hell am I supposed to debate delusion exactly? 

That wouldn't be a problem in a true free market, where people could challenge the status quo and create opportunities for themselves where gaps rise and fall. However, in a corporate oligarchy, this just isn't the case. You read articles chosen and crafted by editors who work for companies that want to make money. Those companies are supposed to be selling their audience to advertisers who are competing for that market. That system has been inverted. 

The WFA represents 90% of the world's advertising dollars. Companies who want access to that money need to comply with the standards that are laid out by GARM, a flagship project of the WEC. The WEC is an unelected body of elites that see corporations as the drivers of the future, not us. Networks aren't selling their access to an audience as the primary source of income. Instead, they are competing to be the best representatives of these imposed corporate guidelines. Prove it. And what is wrong with the GARM standards?? They are basic. How are those standards an example of "our gov being taken over and stripping us of our power?"  Those are facts. Not conspiracy. An unelected body is organizing their power and money to tailor the content that you and I see. This is not a small problem. This is not (or should not be) business as usual. I don't see how you can look at that and say we have more power, not less. This is just one illustration of many that don't even begin to scratch the surface of the problem we, as Americans, actually face in this country. It's a standard of content for advertising that keeps the airwaves free of hate speech., pornography and images of death. But you don't personally decide those standards, so it must be evil right? 

I don't make excuses for "my politicians." I don't believe there are any "my politicians." I think that MOST of the people in our highest offices are bought and paid for. Even twenty years ago, this was largely considered common knowledge, especially from those on the left. Trump is not "my guy." There is no "my guy." My complaints have always been about the ways our government is slowly being sold to the highest bidder, its power being leveraged for profit, its systems being less transparent and accountable, and its messaging becoming increasingly divisive and authoritarian. That is not progress. 

I am easily the most liberal "conservative" on this board. I do not fear change. I do not fear new ideas. I am growing increasingly frustrated with the comfortable, arrogant "moderates" who repeat what they are told and refuse to consider the obvious problems that are occurring in this country so that a very small group of people can become wealthier. I can look at almost every issue and see how it creates instability that somehow makes rich people richer. The numbers are all there.

And, lastly, I know there are people on the left who claim they are fighting the elites as they attend the Met Gala for $35,000 a person in their designer dresses. Tax the rich, they say, even though they hold power and the transfer of wealth to the rich somehow continues to rise. Sure. They are doing a great job as they protest abortion and riot in the streets about the .000006% of blacks per capita who are killed by cops every year (as opposed to the .000006% of whites per capita). The horror. Oh, and all the while, they live the traditional conservative life, teaching conservative values to their kids... find a good spouse, stay married, have kids in wedlock, work hard, be financially responsible, keep our kids of sugar and technology and give them a good education. But let's make sure the rest of these people use public education, with public transportation, and know they can be any gender, have kids out of wedlock (or even better, get an abortion), get on welfare, live on the streets. The left is really crushing it. 

Make no mistake, none of this is advocating for the entrenched politicians on the right, which you will see conservatives on this board consistently denounce as frauds. Why? Because they do the exact same thing as the hucksters on the left. They are for sale. They just use a different divisive message. You, and Mikey, and Marty keep believing the magic trick. Yeah, I've made it clear the shortcomings of candidates we get stuck with are unacceptable across the board if I were to have any real and proper choice. 

If there is one thing we can agree on - it is that ^ I suppose. 

We are indeed screwed by the lack of choice and quality of candidate. 
If there is one thing I DO believe the most powerful want to keep in place to control us, it is that particular aspect of our system. 

I just think that our system (Constitution) does a much better job of protecting us with checks and balances than you do (once one of those candidates get elected.)
That's why (despite all of the bleating here) none of our actual lives have been radically changed because we went from Carter, to Reagan, to Bush, to Clinton, to Bush, to Obama, to Trump, to Biden. Folks like to pretend all hell broke loose each time one of these transitions happened, but it really didn't. 
Very little changed in the grand scheme of American Freedom. Society around us changed with the times, but it didn't come from those in office at the time or we'd have seen wild swings in societal norms as these various administrations shifted in and out of power. We didn't. We were lucky under each of these Presidents to live more freely than the vast majority of humans. I'm still grateful for it.

---

Oh boy, here we go again
Lol. You have such an unearned sense of superiority.  What right do you have to condescend against those who feel the weight of the government hand?  Buddy, it's not my fault you're scared of the boogieman! You want me to feel badly because I don't believe the fear mongering tripe you believe?  Sorry,  it just doesn't work that way. What is your expertise other than consumer of news? I have no problem with your opinions, but you overvalue your worth to these conversations. Bolded there is all in your head. You're projecting. Your great enlightenment was at the airport and that Trump is a charlatan? Wow. Nah. No enlightenment pal. Was just reflecting on how ironic some of it is. 

I don't "invent" narratives. I take my time, use my eyes and my brain, and I start trying to connect ideas that are rooted in substance. i.e. connecting dots that don't align and making unwise assumptions  Even though folks like Marty want to distill these ideas into "conspiracy theories," I do my best to try to share these ideas with reason and data that you casually ignore when it's convenient. You've not given me any supportive data at any juncture If you don't want to see it, you won't. If you don't take the time to consider it, how will ever understand the problem? You don't even take the time to address the issues in most posts. If this is like every other argument you "win," you will take 90% of this post, discard it, and attack the single weakest position you feel you can attack. You say you come here to learn, but what are you "learning?" Seems a lot like stone throwing to me. I do end up throwing a lot of stones here in response to insults and condescension. It works both ways. I don't just light into someone who isn't using aggressive language.

You don't want to take the effort to wrap your close-minded little brain about the ways the world is ACTUALLY changing. You accept platitudes and FACTS from people you consider to be "experts," only because they are trotted out in front of you by people who have power to deem them as such. Anyone who voices a different opinion, regardless of their credentials, are instantly dismissed and discredited by the same people who have the power to deem them as such. Yes, yes, yes... All of the experts that find their way into the newspapers and 37 different media outlets are all puppets of the dark regime. Sure, pal. You're right and ALLLL of them are wrong. Sounds legit. How the hell am I supposed to debate delusion exactly? 

That wouldn't be a problem in a true free market, where people could challenge the status quo and create opportunities for themselves where gaps rise and fall. However, in a corporate oligarchy, this just isn't the case. You read articles chosen and crafted by editors who work for companies that want to make money. Those companies are supposed to be selling their audience to advertisers who are competing for that market. That system has been inverted. 

The WFA represents 90% of the world's advertising dollars. Companies who want access to that money need to comply with the standards that are laid out by GARM, a flagship project of the WEC. The WEC is an unelected body of elites that see corporations as the drivers of the future, not us. Networks aren't selling their access to an audience as the primary source of income. Instead, they are competing to be the best representatives of these imposed corporate guidelines. Prove it. And what is wrong with the GARM standards?? They are basic. How are those standards an example of "our gov being taken over and stripping us of our power?"  Those are facts. Not conspiracy. An unelected body is organizing their power and money to tailor the content that you and I see. This is not a small problem. This is not (or should not be) business as usual. I don't see how you can look at that and say we have more power, not less. This is just one illustration of many that don't even begin to scratch the surface of the problem we, as Americans, actually face in this country. It's a standard of content for advertising that keeps the airwaves free of hate speech., pornography and images of death. But you don't personally decide those standards, so it must be evil right? 

I don't make excuses for "my politicians." I don't believe there are any "my politicians." I think that MOST of the people in our highest offices are bought and paid for. Even twenty years ago, this was largely considered common knowledge, especially from those on the left. Trump is not "my guy." There is no "my guy." My complaints have always been about the ways our government is slowly being sold to the highest bidder, its power being leveraged for profit, its systems being less transparent and accountable, and its messaging becoming increasingly divisive and authoritarian. That is not progress. 

I am easily the most liberal "conservative" on this board. I do not fear change. I do not fear new ideas. I am growing increasingly frustrated with the comfortable, arrogant "moderates" who repeat what they are told and refuse to consider the obvious problems that are occurring in this country so that a very small group of people can become wealthier. I can look at almost every issue and see how it creates instability that somehow makes rich people richer. The numbers are all there.

And, lastly, I know there are people on the left who claim they are fighting the elites as they attend the Met Gala for $35,000 a person in their designer dresses. Tax the rich, they say, even though they hold power and the transfer of wealth to the rich somehow continues to rise. Sure. They are doing a great job as they protest abortion and riot in the streets about the .000006% of blacks per capita who are killed by cops every year (as opposed to the .000006% of whites per capita). The horror. Oh, and all the while, they live the traditional conservative life, teaching conservative values to their kids... find a good spouse, stay married, have kids in wedlock, work hard, be financially responsible, keep our kids of sugar and technology and give them a good education. But let's make sure the rest of these people use public education, with public transportation, and know they can be any gender, have kids out of wedlock (or even better, get an abortion), get on welfare, live on the streets. The left is really crushing it. 

Make no mistake, none of this is advocating for the entrenched politicians on the right, which you will see conservatives on this board consistently denounce as frauds. Why? Because they do the exact same thing as the hucksters on the left. They are for sale. They just use a different divisive message. You, and Mikey, and Marty keep believing the magic trick. Yeah, I've made it clear the shortcomings of candidates we get stuck with are unacceptable across the board if I were to have any real and proper choice. 

If there is one thing we can agree on - it is that ^ I suppose. 

We are indeed screwed by the lack of choice and quality of candidate. 
If there is one thing I DO believe the most powerful want to keep in place to control us, it is that particular aspect of our system. 

I just think that our system (Constitution) does a much better job of protecting us with checks and balances than you do (once one of those candidates get elected.)
That's why (despite all of the bleating here) none of our actual lives have been radically changed because we went from Carter, to Reagan, to Bush, to Clinton, to Bush, to Obama, to Trump, to Biden. Folks like to pretend all hell broke loose each time one of these transitions happened, but it really didn't. 
Very little changed in the grand scheme of American Freedom. Society around us changed with the times, but it didn't come from those in office at the time or we'd have seen wild swings in societal norms as these various administrations shifted in and out of power. We didn't. We were lucky under each of these Presidents to live more freely than the vast majority of humans. I'm still grateful for it.

Me too, which is why I don't want to see it circumvented. I will respond to most of this post later, but I don't think we live in the same America that you and I grew up in. Something changed under Obama (and that is not me attacking Obama, rather I think there was an opportunity shift in the corporate sector). I never voted for a President in my life, despite being a PoliSci major and working in government for a few years, because it never really mattered. I just saw it as the same song and dance and the elites fought for their ideal world. I also thought we were insulated from too much damage because of the Constitution and our judicial system. And, ultimately, the President just didn't really have that much power. I don't think that's the case anymore. The WEF is making a global government. That's not a conspiracy. 

Now is the time for a 'great reset' of capitalism | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

Don't do an instant reaction, see Great Reset and go into automaton "conspiracy mode." That is just a palatable blueprint of their goals for the foreseeable future. If you take all of that at face value, and assume these elites are just well-intentioned philanthropists, sure, it sounds great. They believe in stakeholder capitalism, which means only those who have a genuine stake in the future should be shaping it. That's them. Not us.

These people are expert marketers. They will sell you what you want to hear and convince you it's for your own good. Their lifestyle will never change. They will never lose their grasp on power. Did you vote for anyone at the WEF? You skim past my above post about GARM without even realizing or at least addressing my point. It's not about the rules and whether they are good or not. It's about our ability to regulate our elites. When you have an organization that can pull 90% of advertising revenue to any company that is not comply with THEIR values, without any way to retaliate, you don't have a free market. 

NOTHING they are doing is giving us more say. It's taking it away. They are selling us an idea. You're buying it. I'm not. You need me to prove to you it's a bad idea. History is full of these grandiose ideas that fail because of human greed. You're the believer, not me. America ONLY worked because of checks and balances. You remove those, and you're just in an oligarchy that depends on the generosity of your overlords. Not a good idea, bro.

---