He deserves a fair trial and the jurors should presume innocence, but the intent of the law in Georgia was to punish any influential person, who has enough access to information to know better, who presents relevant but false information to a government official.   Trump's only possible defense, which you have repeatedly invoked, is that he didn't know better.  That he completely ignored many advisors, officials, and judges who told him there was no evidence, and only listened to the ones telling him lies.  But that's still a pattern of behavior that nobody in any kind of public trust should ever engage in.  

I know you're a reasonable person.  The facts in Georgia show that he either deliberately lied, or that he delusionally lied.  Either way that's criminal, punishable behavior per Georgia law, either way it was completely self serving, and and either way it's not behavior befitting a leader.  

I think we could debate the point about it being criminal if he believed it. Maybe delusions of this type aren't criminal.  I think they are, but maybe they're not.  But they're still not befitting a leader.  If a man kills someone but his lawyer successfully shows that the man didn't understand what he was doing, we agree that's no longer criminal, but the man still ends up in a psych ward. Not free to continue putting lives at risk.  If Trump really believed, 40 days later, that there was something to the stories of hundreds of thousands of fraudulent ballots, his attachment to reality is not corresponding to sanity.  Yet he shows few if any other symptoms of insanity, so it's more likely that he deliberately lied than delusionally.

Anyhow.

When do we get to move on?

Personally, I think these charges are largely concocted, but we'll see if anything actually damning comes out with this testimony. I have a feeling it will be more of the same... lines taken out of context and soundbites, but we'll see. 

That said, I have no problem with this line of reasoning. I still think it's short sighted. Trump aside, I don't see how any person can come in and effectuate change without being castigated and maligned to the point they lose all credibility. It is going to take someone like Trump who is self-serving and narcissistic, but who's interests align more with the American people than the establishment. 

There is a reason things were better under Trump. It's not because he's a great man. He just wants America to be like it was when he was growing up, and, the reality is, that's a BETTER America (minus the racism, obviously). No person who comes in office and pushes back against our corrupt establishment will come out unscathed. 

I know you like to think you are open minded, but the minute all of the establishment puts its power into destroying someone, you will cave. You can't help it. You're just not a strong enough person outside that little part of your faith that pushes back from time to time. That's just my opinion. 

To your larger point, I would love to have an honorable and dignified leader who genuinely wants change and genuinely wants to help American citizens. I think most Republicans would ditch Trump in a heartbeat if they thought there was a candidate who would fight like Trump. Sometimes, I think DeSantis could be that guy, but, you know, he wore boots.

The petty attacks are so tiresome.

Please get over yourself long enough to stop injecting this tripe when no one is provoking you. 

You could have had a reasonable post but you just had to throw that garbage in there. 

It's one of the reason's this forum descends to personal attacks so often. 

At least I wait until someone insults me. You just responded to a reasonable post with an unnecessary, personal and presumptuous jab.

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Yes that is standard practice but in those cases the person admitted to something that was charged but was being given lesser sentences.

Right now no one has admitted to breaking any laws to do with the rico charges. When they testify, they will say no laws were broken. Trump will present the evidence of fraud and it will be not guilty.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Why do you assume the bolded? 

How do you think you know who will and won't testify with damaging testimony against Trump, and how do you think you know what they will and won't say?

You have no idea. We can only guess. Based on what I've seen following cases with multiple defendants in the past -
It is my opinion that they used these plea deals to coerce damaging testimony out of one or more of those defendants. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. And again - reporters with protected sources are saying this is the case. 

You can disagree - but you don't know beyond doubt any more than I do.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

No one is saying he should go to jail for believing the election wasn't legitimate.

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As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

No one is saying he should go to jail for believing the election wasn't legitimate.

That's exactly what they are saying with these Trumped Up charges.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

No one is saying he should go to jail for believing the election wasn't legitimate.

That's exactly what they are saying with these Trumped Up charges.

They're all saying that..

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As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

I'm sure that mayoral primary and city council race are excellent comparisons to the 2020 presidential race that has already been thoroughly investigated and found fair. 

I couldn't imagine a more apples to apples comparison. 

bit of a reach there

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As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

I'm sure that mayoral primary and city council race are excellent comparisons to the 2020 presidential race that has already been thoroughly investigated and found fair. 

I couldn't imagine a more apples to apples comparison. 

bit of a reach there

The problem is you can't imagine that the corruption is actually happening. Since you can't concieve it you believe your conception to be the truth. Meanwhile the ballot stuffing got us a complete and utter disaster in the White House, as intended. The decline of America continues apace.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

As a reminder, there was no election fraud and even if there were election fraud (which there wasn't) it certainly couldn't have been enough to make a difference (not that there was because there wasn't) and Trump absolutely KNEW that there wasn't even the possibilty of election fraud in 2020 when he insisted that the elections be scrutinized. And he should go to jail for believing that the election wasn't legitimate. Because it was. Totally.

https://revolver.news/2023/11/judge-orde...-surfaces/

https://revolver.news/2023/11/breaking-m...n-ballots/

We are sure there was fraud.
We are sure there wasn't enough fraud to change the outcome in any state.
We were sure of that within a couple of weeks of election day 2020.  Most of Trump's advisors told him so.
Trump did not ask Raffensburger to just scrutinize it.  That wouldn't have been criminal.  Trump asked Raffensburger to change the total.  That is criminal.  Trump told Raffensburger lies to justify his ask.  That is also criminal.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Wrong. Trump asked Raffensberger to find the fraudulent votes then change the total. Makes sense in CONTEXT.

---

Personally, I think these charges are largely concocted, but we'll see if anything actually damning comes out with this testimony. I have a feeling it will be more of the same... lines taken out of context and soundbites, but we'll see. 

That said, I have no problem with this line of reasoning. I still think it's short sighted. Trump aside, I don't see how any person can come in and effectuate change without being castigated and maligned to the point they lose all credibility. It is going to take someone like Trump who is self-serving and narcissistic, but who's interests align more with the American people than the establishment. 

There is a reason things were better under Trump. It's not because he's a great man. He just wants America to be like it was when he was growing up, and, the reality is, that's a BETTER America (minus the racism, obviously). No person who comes in office and pushes back against our corrupt establishment will come out unscathed. 

I know you like to think you are open minded, but the minute all of the establishment puts its power into destroying someone, you will cave. You can't help it. You're just not a strong enough person outside that little part of your faith that pushes back from time to time. That's just my opinion. 

To your larger point, I would love to have an honorable and dignified leader who genuinely wants change and genuinely wants to help American citizens. I think most Republicans would ditch Trump in a heartbeat if they thought there was a candidate who would fight like Trump. Sometimes, I think DeSantis could be that guy, but, you know, he wore boots.

The petty attacks are so tiresome.

Please get over yourself long enough to stop injecting this tripe when no one is provoking you. 

You could have had a reasonable post but you just had to throw that garbage in there. 

It's one of the reason's this forum descends to personal attacks so often. 

At least I wait until someone insults me. You just responded to a reasonable post with an unnecessary, personal and presumptuous jab.

That's not an attack. It's an honest criticism. I've met with Mikey in person. I think this is true of him and many others like him. It's why I criticize moderates all of the time. There are too many comfortable people in this country that are quick to be moved by the carefully crafted narratives that are pushed out by a few people who control our airwaves. Our cultural zeitgeist is being shaped and manipulated by global leftists who keep pushing the Overton window so far to the left that our moderates barely even resemble themselves 20 years ago. Hell, even conservatives are barely recognizable. 

Mikey, imo, is representative of well-meaning people who are too quick to try to coopt destructive ideas in the name of open mindedness. It's a problem. It goes hand-in-hand with the point I was making about who can actually stand up against it? At some point, moderates are going to have to pull their heads out of their [BLEEP] and get a backbone if they want to have any real say in the direction of this country.

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Wrong. Trump asked Raffensberger to find the fraudulent votes then change the total. Makes sense in CONTEXT.

Go find something that we already looked for many times and say doesn't exist, that I by rights should know doesn't exist, or else you could be in trouble.  CONTEXT.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Mikey, not doing this word salad with you, bro. There is an hour-long conversation they had that I have already posted in this thread where trump says "find" 52 times in relation to them doing a better job in their investigation. It's clear from that conversation that he thinks they will find the votes if they look into these things. You don't get to just make it whatever you want. Here's context from that conversation, Mikey:

I just, I just don’t know why you don’t want to have the votes counted as they are. Like even you when you went and did that check. And I was surprised because, you know …the check… And we found a few thousand votes that were against me. I was actually surprised because the way that check was done, all you’re doing is you know, recertifying existing votes and, you know, and you were given votes and you just counted them up and you still found 3,000 that were bad. So that was sort of surprising that it came down to three or five I don’t know. still a lot of votes. But you have to go back to check from past years with respect to signatures. And if you check with Fulton County, you’ll have hundreds of thousands because they dumped ballots into Fulton County and the other county next to it.

So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already. Or we can keep it going but that’s not fair to the voters of Georgia because they’re going to see what happened and they’re going to see what happened. I mean, I’ll, I’ll take on to anybody you want with regard to [name] and her lovely daughter, a very lovely young lady, I’m sure. But, but [name] … I will take on anybody you want. And the minimum, there were 18,000 ballots but they used them three times. So that’s, you know, a lot of votes. …and that one event… And they were all to Biden, by the way, that’s the other thing we didn’t say. You know, [name] , the one thing I forgot to say which was the most important. You know that every single ballot she did went to Biden. You know that, right? Do you know that, by the way, Brad?

Trump is saying they found fraudulent votes doing it their way, which is just recounting. He's suggesting they make their process more rigorous to verify there isn't fraud. He's suggesting they audit Fulton County after 2 other counties found 3k missing votes for Trump. It's right there in the text. He believes there was fraud, and he believes they didn't investigate thoroughly enough. Change the process, and you'll find more fraudulent votes. The whole conversation is about his befuddlement with Raffensberger that he isn't trying to actively look for fraud. He's right, btw. Raffensberger says as much himself in that he sent people out and they asked questions, and these were the answers. There wasn't time to do a real audit. 

They were already forming an investigation into efforts of Trump to overturn the election before they did an audit of Fulton County. C'mon, man.

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Wrong. Trump asked Raffensberger to find the fraudulent votes THAT THEY ALREADY DETERMINED DIDN"T EXIST OVER THE PAST FORTY DAYS - then change the total. Makes sense in CONTEXT.

fixed

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The petty attacks are so tiresome.

Please get over yourself long enough to stop injecting this tripe when no one is provoking you. 

You could have had a reasonable post but you just had to throw that garbage in there. 

It's one of the reason's this forum descends to personal attacks so often. 

At least I wait until someone insults me. You just responded to a reasonable post with an unnecessary, personal and presumptuous jab.

That's not an attack. It's an honest criticism. I've met with Mikey in person. I think this is true of him and many others like him. It's why I criticize moderates all of the time. There are too many comfortable people in this country that are quick to be moved by the carefully crafted narratives that are pushed out by a few people who control our airwaves. Our cultural zeitgeist is being shaped and manipulated by global leftists who keep pushing the Overton window so far to the left that our moderates barely even resemble themselves 20 years ago. Hell, even conservatives are barely recognizable. 

Mikey, imo, is representative of well-meaning people who are too quick to try to coopt destructive ideas in the name of open mindedness. It's a problem. It goes hand-in-hand with the point I was making about who can actually stand up against it? At some point, moderates are going to have to pull their heads out of their [BLEEP] and get a backbone if they want to have any real say in the direction of this country.

You should give up on the amateur psycho babble.

Makes you sound like a substitute high school psych teacher who couldn't get a job at the university. 

"honest criticism" 

LOL

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Wrong. Trump asked Raffensberger to find the fraudulent votes THAT THEY ALREADY DETERMINED DIDN"T EXIST OVER THE PAST FORTY DAYS AND TRUMP IS OBJECTING TO THE THOROUGHNESS OF THE 40 DAY INVESTIGATION - then change the total. Makes sense in CONTEXT.

fixed

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That's not an attack. It's an honest criticism. I've met with Mikey in person. I think this is true of him and many others like him. It's why I criticize moderates all of the time. There are too many comfortable people in this country that are quick to be moved by the carefully crafted narratives that are pushed out by a few people who control our airwaves. Our cultural zeitgeist is being shaped and manipulated by global leftists who keep pushing the Overton window so far to the left that our moderates barely even resemble themselves 20 years ago. Hell, even conservatives are barely recognizable. 

Mikey, imo, is representative of well-meaning people who are too quick to try to coopt destructive ideas in the name of open mindedness. It's a problem. It goes hand-in-hand with the point I was making about who can actually stand up against it? At some point, moderates are going to have to pull their heads out of their [BLEEP] and get a backbone if they want to have any real say in the direction of this country.

You should give up on the amateur psycho babble.

Makes you sound like a substitute high school psych teacher who couldn't get a job at the university. 

"honest criticism" 

LOL

Lol, like I give two [BLEEP] what you think. You should give up on commenting altogether. How's that? I think you sound like a self-entitled hypocrite. Does that move the needle for you? We're really making progress now, even though you still can't properly use context, as evidenced above.

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fixed

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You should give up on the amateur psycho babble.

Makes you sound like a substitute high school psych teacher who couldn't get a job at the university. 

"honest criticism" 

LOL

Lol, like I give two [BLEEP] what you think. You should give up on commenting altogether. How's that? I think you sound like a self-entitled hypocrite. Does that move the needle for you? We're really making progress now, even though you still can't properly use context, as evidenced above.

LOL - you are the douche bag trying to justify your pompous insults as "honest criticism"

HAHAHAHAHA 
And you call ME a hypocrite

What a [BLEEP] windbag of bull [BLEEP] 

You take the drivel you spout waaaaaayyyy too seriously

Lighten up

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fixed

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You should give up on the amateur psycho babble.

Makes you sound like a substitute high school psych teacher who couldn't get a job at the university. 

"honest criticism" 

LOL

Lol, like I give two [BLEEP] what you think. You should give up on commenting altogether. How's that? I think you sound like a self-entitled hypocrite. Does that move the needle for you? We're really making progress now, even though you still can't properly use context, as evidenced above.

---

Lol, like I give two [BLEEP] what you think. You should give up on commenting altogether. How's that? I think you sound like a self-entitled hypocrite. Does that move the needle for you? We're really making progress now, even though you still can't properly use context, as evidenced above.

LOL - you are the douche bag trying to justify your pompous insults as "honest criticism"

HAHAHAHAHA 
And you call ME a hypocrite

What a [BLEEP] windbag of bull [BLEEP] 

You take the drivel you spout waaaaaayyyy too seriously

Lighten up

---

That's because you're not fluent in Jackass.. Get Mikey to translate.

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Great.

Now that we've all properly called each other names on the school playground like proper children, here is some light reading to consider on the topic of "who might meaningfully testify against Trump."

So Far - these are the folks who made a deal - reportedly more deals are being negotiated that may require testimony as witness for the prosecution. 

Sydney Powell

Sydney Powell is a lawyer who was employed by Donald Trump in the aftermath of the 2020 election. She is best known for spreading widely debunked conspiracy theories, misinformation about the results of the election, and her promise of a massive trove of evidence of fraud that she called the "Kraken." This evidence never materialized, however.

Georgia prosecutors also criminally charged her for being heavily involved in a conspiracy to breach voting machines in Coffee County, Georgia, where she illegally collected voter information to unsuccessfully prove her claims of voter fraud. She pleaded guilty ahead of her trial and agreed to work with prosecutors in exchange for a lighter sentence.

Her deal included pleading guilty to six counts of conspiracy to interfere with election duties and admitting that she conspired with local election officials to breach voting machines in Coffee County. Provided she holds up her end of the deal – which may not be a given, considering the public statements she's made contradicting her plea agreement since it was struck – she will be compelled to testify against Donald Trump and other defendants and receive to up to six years of probation, a $6,000 fine, and $2,700 in restitution to replace the broken election equipment. She will also have to write a letter to the people of Georgia admitting and apologizing for her crimes.

Kenneth Chesebro

Kenneth Chesebro was charged with helping develop and enact the Trump campaign's plot to subvert the election by selecting and putting forward slates of false electors in Georgia and six other states. Chesebro was the author of a series of memos that initially spelled out the fake elector strategy, helped coordinate Trump's efforts to enact the plot, and provided his co-conspirators with detailed instructions on how to create and distribute the false documents required to make the fake elector strategy work.

Chesebro's plea deal requires him to admit his role in concocting and implementing the plot, pleading guilty to one felony count of conspiracy to commit false documents, and testify against his other co-defendants.

His punishment includes five years of probation, $5,000 in restitution, and another letter apologizing to the people of Georgia for attempting to illegally overturn the election.

Jenna Ellis

Jenna Ellis is an attorney with little to no experience in constitutional law who provided Donald Trump with advice on how to press then Vice President Mike Pence to disrupt, delay, and overturn the certification of the election. Despite the illegality and constitutional impossibility of the advice that Ms. Ellis offered, Mr. Trump both listened and attempted to put her plan into action. Mr. Pence ultimately refused, and the election was certified on January 6, 2021 after a delay due to the unprecedented insurrection attempt instigated by Mr. Trump.

Ms. Ellis pleaded guilty to a felony charge of aiding and abetting false statements and writings, and has agreed to fully cooperate with prosecutors moving forward. She will be required to serve five years of probation, pay $5,000 in restitution, and perform 100 hours of community service. She has already written her letter apologizing to the people of Georgia.

She also took the interesting step of giving a statement to the court, in which she implicated Rudy Giuliani for her actions and expressed remorse for her role. Her emotional statement in court was contradicted by public statements she made almost immediately afterward.

Loyalty vs. Self-Preservation

Fani Willis' team has reportedly proposed deals to at least six other co-conspirators in Mr. Trump's Georgia election fraud case. Several more major players have sought deals with prosecutors in the other cases currently facing Mr. Trump. It remains to be seen how many co-defendants ultimately become witnesses for the prosecution.

Text borrowed from a legal blogger. I don't see any inaccuracy.

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