Hamas knew IDF would go Full Metal Jacket on Gaza. They counted on it. The optics of Israel bombing the nuts off of Gaza and killing a buttload of innocent people is priceless even if it's not working out the way Hamas intended. Israel had told Hamas if they attack, IDF would pretty much go scorched earth on them. Sadly, the collateral damage of death and displaced folks is the price the Palestinians pay for voting a terrorist organization into their government.

That's a pretty dark way of looking at it. Does that include kids who've never voted in their lives? Given the last election was in 2006, you'd have to be 35 or over to have ever voted for anyone in Gaza (and that's not even taking into account the 56% of Gazans who did vote in that election but didn't vote for Hamas).

How would you suggest Israel vanquish an enemy on their border who murders Israeli women and children and is deeply dug in (quite literally) while using their own children as cover?

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That's a pretty dark way of looking at it. Does that include kids who've never voted in their lives? Given the last election was in 2006, you'd have to be 35 or over to have ever voted for anyone in Gaza (and that's not even taking into account the 56% of Gazans who did vote in that election but didn't vote for Hamas).

How would you suggest Israel vanquish an enemy on their border who murders Israeli women and children and is deeply dug in (quite literally) while using their own children as cover?

I don't know the answer, but it isn't that innocent Gazans are can be thought of as collateral damage because 44% of the people who voted, voted for Hamas.

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CCL Stroudcrowd1

How would you suggest Israel vanquish an enemy on their border who murders Israeli women and children and is deeply dug in (quite literally) while using their own children as cover?

I don't know the answer, but it isn't that innocent Gazans are can be thought of as collateral damage because 44% of the people who voted, voted in Hamas.

That's what happens when a terrorist group victimizes even their own people. Voting percentages are absolutely irrelevant from Israel's safety and survival point of view, nor should it be.

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Abstractly speaking, a perfectly just and perfectly capable IDF would go block by block, demand surrender and toleration oaths from every resident, and put the ones who agree in a protected temporary safe zone while they eliminate those who do not agree.
Speaking in reality, the area is simply too compact, and there are 2 million people to process. The area needs to be degraded to the point that almost everyone leaves.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

Abstractly speaking, a perfectly just and perfectly capable IDF would go block by block, demand surrender and toleration oaths from every resident, and put the ones who agree in a protected temporary safe zone while they eliminate those who do not agree.
Speaking in reality, the area is simply too compact,  and there are 2 million people to process.  The area needs to be degraded to the point that almost everyone leaves.

That is the cold hard reality. Not to mention the warren of tunnels which allow attacks ‘from out of nowhere’. Hamas has forced this on their own people. They alone are to blame.

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The reality is, even today, 72% of people in Gaza say that October 7th was a good thing. They are monsters and the west needs to stop treating the Islamic Jihadists with kids gloves.

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Hamas knew IDF would go Full Metal Jacket on Gaza. They counted on it. The optics of Israel bombing the nuts off of Gaza and killing a buttload of innocent people is priceless even if it's not working out the way Hamas intended. Israel had told Hamas if they attack, IDF would pretty much go scorched earth on them. Sadly, the collateral damage of death and displaced folks is the price the Palestinians pay for voting a terrorist organization into their government.

That's a pretty dark way of looking at it. Does that include kids who've never voted in their lives? Given the last election was in 2006, you'd have to be 35 or over to have ever voted for anyone in Gaza (and that's not even taking into account the 56% of Gazans who did vote in that election but didn't vote for Hamas).

You reap what you sow and unfortunately younger generations suffer for mistakes made by those who came before them, no matter the country they live in. 

At some point the Palestinians thought Hamas was a solution to their Jewish problem. Afghans thought the Taliban were a solution to their specific problem. Both countries allowed these terrorist organizations to come in and govern them and we see the results. 

Choices have consequences.

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That's a pretty dark way of looking at it. Does that include kids who've never voted in their lives? Given the last election was in 2006, you'd have to be 35 or over to have ever voted for anyone in Gaza (and that's not even taking into account the 56% of Gazans who did vote in that election but didn't vote for Hamas).

You reap what you sow and unfortunately younger generations suffer for mistakes made by those who came before them, no matter the country they live in. 

At some point the Palestinians thought Hamas was a solution to their Jewish problem. Afghans thought the Taliban were a solution to their specific problem. Both countries allowed these terrorist organizations to come in and govern them and we see the results. 

Choices have consequences.

So, you are ok with girls in Afghanistan being restricted from education at a very young age and staying home being servants to their husbands?  I assume you were ok with Slavery in the US back in the 1800s since that's what the elected officials decided.   I mean, Choices have Consequences and you really seem to be ok with any consequence coming from the choices of the people.

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You reap what you sow and unfortunately younger generations suffer for mistakes made by those who came before them, no matter the country they live in. 

At some point the Palestinians thought Hamas was a solution to their Jewish problem. Afghans thought the Taliban were a solution to their specific problem. Both countries allowed these terrorist organizations to come in and govern them and we see the results. 

Choices have consequences.

So, you are ok with girls in Afghanistan being restricted from education at a very young age and staying home being servants to their husbands?  I assume you were ok with Slavery in the US back in the 1800s since that's what the elected officials decided.   I mean, Choices have Consequences and you really seem to be ok with any consequence coming from the choices of the people.

It's not like that. There's a difference between "I don't care about this" and "I care, but anything I might try will probably make things worse for you". Organizations like BRAC and the Red Cross can do things that the United States government can not do.

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

You reap what you sow and unfortunately younger generations suffer for mistakes made by those who came before them, no matter the country they live in. 

At some point the Palestinians thought Hamas was a solution to their Jewish problem. Afghans thought the Taliban were a solution to their specific problem. Both countries allowed these terrorist organizations to come in and govern them and we see the results. 

Choices have consequences.

So, you are ok with girls in Afghanistan being restricted from education at a very young age and staying home being servants to their husbands?  I assume you were ok with Slavery in the US back in the 1800s since that's what the elected officials decided.   I mean, Choices have Consequences and you really seem to be ok with any consequence coming from the choices of the people.

If we do anything about it we're evil white supremacist colonizers who are the reason for all bad things that have ever happened in the history of the world.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You reap what you sow and unfortunately younger generations suffer for mistakes made by those who came before them, no matter the country they live in. 

At some point the Palestinians thought Hamas was a solution to their Jewish problem. Afghans thought the Taliban were a solution to their specific problem. Both countries allowed these terrorist organizations to come in and govern them and we see the results. 

Choices have consequences.

So, you are ok with girls in Afghanistan being restricted from education at a very young age and staying home being servants to their husbands?  I assume you were ok with Slavery in the US back in the 1800s since that's what the elected officials decided.   I mean, Choices have Consequences and you really seem to be ok with any consequence coming from the choices of the people.

How you came to this conclusion from what I said is beyond me. 

I'm speaking in general terms not how I personally feel. Is it not a fact that actions have consequences regardless of the subject matter? Facts and feelings rarely work together in agreement. Speaking facts doesn't mean I agree with it.

Personally I find the innocent people in both countries to be in horrific situations. Women and children don't have a choice in these societies, especially in Afghanistan. We can thank the Palestinian men who chose this for their country. Sadly, the male children born into both regimes have likely been taught this is normal so they don't know any better and the cycle continues. 

There is nothing right or good about either situation but to say actions/choices didn't lead to consequences (their current situation) is to not see or acknowledge the reality of it all, regardless of how it makes us feel.

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So, you are ok with girls in Afghanistan being restricted from education at a very young age and staying home being servants to their husbands?  I assume you were ok with Slavery in the US back in the 1800s since that's what the elected officials decided.   I mean, Choices have Consequences and you really seem to be ok with any consequence coming from the choices of the people.

How you came to this conclusion from what I said is beyond me. 

I'm speaking in general terms not how I personally feel. Is it not a fact that actions have consequences regardless of the subject matter? Facts and feelings rarely work together in agreement. Speaking facts doesn't mean I agree with it.

Personally I find the innocent people in both countries to be in horrific situations. Women and children don't have a choice in these societies, especially in Afghanistan. We can thank the Palestinian men who chose this for their country. Sadly, the male children born into both regimes have likely been taught this is normal so they don't know any better and the cycle continues. 

There is nothing right or good about either situation but to say actions/choices didn't lead to consequences (their current situation) is to not see or acknowledge the reality of it all, regardless of how it makes us feel.

Women participated in the last Palestinian election, where Hamas won.  Women often vote for things that seem anti-female to an outsider.  

And not just over there.

Today's NPR morning edition had a pollster from the Bulwark saying that a significant portion of female voters in the NH Republican primary agreed with the statement "the President should not be a woman".

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My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

How you came to this conclusion from what I said is beyond me. 

I'm speaking in general terms not how I personally feel. Is it not a fact that actions have consequences regardless of the subject matter? Facts and feelings rarely work together in agreement. Speaking facts doesn't mean I agree with it.

Personally I find the innocent people in both countries to be in horrific situations. Women and children don't have a choice in these societies, especially in Afghanistan. We can thank the Palestinian men who chose this for their country. Sadly, the male children born into both regimes have likely been taught this is normal so they don't know any better and the cycle continues. 

There is nothing right or good about either situation but to say actions/choices didn't lead to consequences (their current situation) is to not see or acknowledge the reality of it all, regardless of how it makes us feel.

Women participated in the last Palestinian election, where Hamas won.  Women often vote for things that seem anti-female to an outsider.  

And not just over there.

Today's NPR morning edition had a pollster from the Bulwark saying that a significant portion of female voters in the NH Republican primary agreed with the statement "the President should not be a woman".

Women voting against their own interests is nothing new. Palestinian women voting because their husband/father/brother told them who to vote for wouldn't be surprising. Women voting in Afghanistan is a non-starter. 

To be honest, as a woman I don't believe this country is ready for a female POTUS. Certainly none who have tried. Even female VP candidates have been weak. It would take someone with the mind and conscience of the late Queen Elizabeth to convince me she was capable. We all know QE wasn't the government of the UK but no one questioned her dedication to the country. If the monarchy was still governing the country I don't know that she would have been any different.

I question the motivation of every American politician. Every. Single. One. I fail to think of one American politician, man or woman, who would put America first and who couldn't be bought. 

This is getting off the subject though. It can be continued in the regular political thread.

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