I love how this time-to-throw gets tossed around like it's the coup de grace argument.  He's got the least time to throw because defences don't respect him.  If they over commit on pressure, they will not get burned.  He won't hit the quick slant that forces an LB to stay in the hole.  He won't dump it to a back on a makeshift screen.  He won't take off on a run that forces the DL to rush a little slower so they can react.

TL has the least time because he's the least respected.

It seems the TL-swifties are all content to believe he's a complete victim of circumstance with no responsibility, as the highest paid player on the squad by a WIIIIIIIIIIIDE margin, to be the best player on the squad by an equally WIIIIIIIIIIIDE margin.  That's a good gig.  Give me $55M a year and I can stink it up like an outhouse as well.  Hell, I'll be unreliable at half that price.

Interesting perspective given statistically he's one of the best deep ball throwers in the NFL and statistically one of the best at getting the ball out fast. He's got the least amount of time to throw because the OL is not good. It's not the only factor but it's obviously the biggest and all objective data leads to that. I can't imagine being a football fan and not being able to easily conclude that this OL is trash and the biggest deficiency on offense. Football has and always will start with blocking.

As I said he's played horrible and he's not the generational QB people thought he would be (including me), but yet he is still the best thing about this football team has going forward which is wild given how he has played this season.

Doesn’t fit their narrative. He had the fastest release time last year and is a high graded deep passer. He’s not an idiot. If anything we need to ask why he struggles with the intermediate throws currently. I think the play can’t get developed in time and because he has to be quick, he can’t get to a second read or third. That needs to be a point of emphasis if and when we improve the line. But for now I give him a mulligan

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The biggest problem moving forward with the team, is that the Jags gave an average QB a top-of-the market contract.  If I'm looking to hire another coach, that coach is going to look at the team and see that Trevor Lawrence has a contract that far exceeds his performance, and that he is essentially untradeable (no team is taking on that contract, and the Jags aren't able to eat the dead money) for years.  If I could pick the next coach, it would be Ben Johnson, but there is NO WAY he's going to take his HC shot with Lawrence locked in.

You say that but the Rams show otherwise. McVay took that job with Goff who is a middle of the road QB. Then Campbell did it in Detroit. Offensive minds will see what he can be and be intrigued. To me that’s better than coming into a situation where QB is a complete wild card like a rookie for example.

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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1013...00EnOM4gmw

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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1013...00EnOM4gmw

I don't even wanna see that [BLEEP] face right now..

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Trevor has the tools. He needs to step up his leadership game though. QBs like Manning and Brady visibly held their guys accountable in game when screw ups were happening. Trevor is a little more laid back and even keel. There's advantages to that calmness at times, but he needs to start barking at guys and getting pissed off and I'm not generally a proponent of the rah rah.

Pederson alluded to this in his post game interview last night. He quoted a saying that "bad teams are leaderless, mediocre teams are coach-led and elite teams are player-led" or something to that effect and said there were examples of vet guys on the team trying to lead but that it isn't where it needs to be yet. Trevor has to be one of those guys given the position and salary.

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Interesting perspective given statistically he's one of the best deep ball throwers in the NFL and statistically one of the best at getting the ball out fast. He's got the least amount of time to throw because the OL is not good. It's not the only factor but it's obviously the biggest and all objective data leads to that. I can't imagine being a football fan and not being able to easily conclude that this OL is trash and the biggest deficiency on offense. Football has and always will start with blocking.

As I said he's played horrible and he's not the generational QB people thought he would be (including me), but yet he is still the best thing about this football team has going forward which is wild given how he has played this season.

Doesn’t fit their narrative. He had the fastest release time last year and is a high graded deep passer. He’s not an idiot. If anything we need to ask why he struggles with the intermediate throws currently. I think the play can’t get developed in time and because he has to be quick, he can’t get to a second read or third. That needs to be a point of emphasis if and when we improve the line. But for now I give him a mulligan

---

The biggest problem moving forward with the team, is that the Jags gave an average QB a top-of-the market contract.  If I'm looking to hire another coach, that coach is going to look at the team and see that Trevor Lawrence has a contract that far exceeds his performance, and that he is essentially untradeable (no team is taking on that contract, and the Jags aren't able to eat the dead money) for years.  If I could pick the next coach, it would be Ben Johnson, but there is NO WAY he's going to take his HC shot with Lawrence locked in.

You say that but the Rams show otherwise. McVay took that job with Goff who is a middle of the road QB. Then Campbell did it in Detroit. Offensive minds will see what he can be and be intrigued. To me that’s better than coming into a situation where QB is a complete wild card like a rookie for example.

Did McVay win with Goff? No he did not. Making wildcards and SBs isnt winning.

He only won with a working QB in Stafford.

Campbell in Detriot wont win a SB with Goff either.

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Doesn’t fit their narrative. He had the fastest release time last year and is a high graded deep passer. He’s not an idiot. If anything we need to ask why he struggles with the intermediate throws currently. I think the play can’t get developed in time and because he has to be quick, he can’t get to a second read or third. That needs to be a point of emphasis if and when we improve the line. But for now I give him a mulligan

---

You say that but the Rams show otherwise. McVay took that job with Goff who is a middle of the road QB. Then Campbell did it in Detroit. Offensive minds will see what he can be and be intrigued. To me that’s better than coming into a situation where QB is a complete wild card like a rookie for example.

Did McVay win with Goff? No he did not. Making wildcards and SBs isnt winning.

He only won with a working QB in Stafford.

Campbell in Detriot wont win a SB with Goff either.

Are you serious? Winning is winning except when it’s not…lol. A Super Bowl berth and division titles is winning and it didn’t end there. They traded for stafford, who was considered a mid tier QB and a disappointment considering his draft hype, and he won a title. Great coaches make a difference and clearly Pederson isn’t doing that.

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[...]

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The biggest problem moving forward with the team, is that the Jags gave an average QB a top-of-the market contract.  If I'm looking to hire another coach, that coach is going to look at the team and see that Trevor Lawrence has a contract that far exceeds his performance, and that he is essentially untradeable (no team is taking on that contract, and the Jags aren't able to eat the dead money) for years.  If I could pick the next coach, it would be Ben Johnson, but there is NO WAY he's going to take his HC shot with Lawrence locked in.

You say that but the Rams show otherwise. McVay took that job with Goff who is a middle of the road QB. Then Campbell did it in Detroit. Offensive minds will see what he can be and be intrigued. To me that’s better than coming into a situation where QB is a complete wild card like a rookie for example.

The difference is McVay took the HC job before Goff's 2nd year, to me that looks like he took Goff on as a developmental QB and had some success with Goff putting up QB rankings of 100.5 and 101.1.  The difference is that this is Trevor in his 4th year and he's regressed for the last 8 games.  Unless Lawrence makes a major turnaround this year he's going to be an enormous albatross for the next coaching hire.  Heck, unless Hines-Allen and Campbell come out and live up to their contracts that's 2 additional bad contracts.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

[...]

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You say that but the Rams show otherwise. McVay took that job with Goff who is a middle of the road QB. Then Campbell did it in Detroit. Offensive minds will see what he can be and be intrigued. To me that’s better than coming into a situation where QB is a complete wild card like a rookie for example.

The difference is McVay took the HC job before Goff's 2nd year, to me that looks like he took Goff on as a developmental QB and had some success with Goff putting up QB rankings of 100.5 and 101.1.  The difference is that this is Trevor in his 4th year and he's regressed for the last 8 games.  Unless Lawrence makes a major turnaround this year he's going to be an enormous albatross for the next coaching hire.  Heck, unless Hines-Allen and Campbell come out and live up to their contracts that's 2 additional bad contracts.

And Goff then regressed and McVay took stafford on and forged the offense to him. Campbell is now taking Goff back to form . Shanahan has literally made every QB he’s touched look better. A right coach will be able to make Trevor realize his full potential (and before anyone plays gotcha, I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be. I think he can be in the top half of this league with some borderline elite years with the right support around him. Aka basically what every team has to unless you have Kermit at QB)

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Trevor has the tools.  He needs to step up his leadership game though.  QBs like Manning and Brady visibly held their guys accountable in game when screw ups were happening.  Trevor is a little more laid back and even keel.  There's advantages to that calmness at times, but he needs to start barking at guys and getting pissed off and I'm not generally a proponent of the rah rah. 

Pederson alluded to this in his post game interview last night.  He quoted a saying that "bad teams are leaderless, mediocre teams are coach-led and elite teams are player-led" or something to that effect and said there were examples of vet guys on the team trying to lead but that it isn't where it needs to be yet.  Trevor has to be one of those guys given the position and salary.

Doug admitting his own failing here? Don't think anyone can argue the jags are anything other than a bad team, and therefore leaderless by Doug's own logic. One would think Doug would be responsible for leadership along with certain players.

---

Did McVay win with Goff? No he did not. Making wildcards and SBs isnt winning.

He only won with a working QB in Stafford.

Campbell in Detriot wont win a SB with Goff either.

Are you serious? Winning is winning except when it’s not…lol. A Super Bowl berth and division titles is winning and it didn’t end there. They traded for stafford, who was considered a mid tier QB and a disappointment considering his draft hype, and he won a title. Great coaches make a difference and clearly Pederson isn’t doing that.

You brought McVay as a stepping stone and you said he had success with Goff. 

His QB in the SB had the following stats:


0 TDs, 1 INT, 59% passer rating. 

Missed a wide open guy in the EZ which couldve been a factor beating NE that SB year run. 

Under Stafford:

89% passer rating. 3 TDs 2 INT and a total of 283 passing yards.

This shows that you need a talented QB to be successful regardless of who the HC is.

You can only mask their weaknesses for so long.

---

The difference is McVay took the HC job before Goff's 2nd year, to me that looks like he took Goff on as a developmental QB and had some success with Goff putting up QB rankings of 100.5 and 101.1.  The difference is that this is Trevor in his 4th year and he's regressed for the last 8 games.  Unless Lawrence makes a major turnaround this year he's going to be an enormous albatross for the next coaching hire.  Heck, unless Hines-Allen and Campbell come out and live up to their contracts that's 2 additional bad contracts.

And Goff then regressed and McVay took stafford on and forged the offense to him. Campbell is now taking Goff back to form . Shanahan has literally made every QB he’s touched look better. A right coach will be able to make Trevor realize his full potential (and before anyone plays gotcha, I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be. I think he can be in the top half of this league with some borderline elite years with the right support around him. Aka basically what every team has to unless you have Kermit at QB)

"I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be." ...yet he's paid as if he's top 3.  Again if he puts up top ten numbers this year, it will be different... I'll leave that likelihood up to you.   But if at the end of the season Trevor puts up mediocre stats, you'll have a guy going into his 5th year never having shown that he is a reliable and consistent top 10 QB.  As it pertains to my example HC, Ben Johnson, he chose to stay as an OC with Goff, turning down the Commanders job HC job.  I just don't see how Trevor Lawrence (plus contract) will convince him otherwise.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

[quote pid="1644856" dateline="1727195987"]

And Goff then regressed and McVay took stafford on and forged the offense to him. Campbell is now taking Goff back to form . Shanahan has literally made every QB he’s touched look better. A right coach will be able to make Trevor realize his full potential (and before anyone plays gotcha, I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be. I think he can be in the top half of this league with some borderline elite years with the right support around him. Aka basically what every team has to unless you have Kermit at QB)
[/quote]

That's hilarious. The wizard "QB whisperer" Shanahan moved up on a draft board and selected a bust of a QB.

But yes everything he touches turns into magic.

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Trevor has the tools.  He needs to step up his leadership game though.  QBs like Manning and Brady visibly held their guys accountable in game when screw ups were happening.  Trevor is a little more laid back and even keel.  There's advantages to that calmness at times, but he needs to start barking at guys and getting pissed off and I'm not generally a proponent of the rah rah. 

Pederson alluded to this in his post game interview last night.  He quoted a saying that "bad teams are leaderless, mediocre teams are coach-led and elite teams are player-led" or something to that effect and said there were examples of vet guys on the team trying to lead but that it isn't where it needs to be yet.  Trevor has to be one of those guys given the position and salary.

Doug admitting his own failing here? Don't think anyone can argue the jags are anything other than a bad team, and therefore leaderless by Doug's own logic. One would think Doug would be responsible for leadership along with certain players.

If you're a pessimist, I could see coming away with that interpretation.  Though I think this team is mediocre and injuries and poor execution significantly contributed to how bad we lost last night.  I don't think this is a bad team overall talent wise, but that could change depending on how they respond to being embarrassed.  I do think players need to step up and lead and set examples and that starts with Trevor.  Whether that's players only meetings or holding each other accountable or any number of other things, it needs to start happening or get ramped up a few notches if it has already been happening.  Coaches can only do and say so much to motivate guys where many of them make more money than the coach does.  Cam should probably be benched for instance, but motivation to be better generally comes from within or potentially from player leaders on the team setting the tone for accountability.

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And Goff then regressed and McVay took stafford on and forged the offense to him. Campbell is now taking Goff back to form . Shanahan has literally made every QB he’s touched look better. A right coach will be able to make Trevor realize his full potential (and before anyone plays gotcha, I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be. I think he can be in the top half of this league with some borderline elite years with the right support around him. Aka basically what every team has to unless you have Kermit at QB)

"I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be." ...yet he's paid as if he's top 3.  Again if he puts up top ten numbers this year, it will be different... I'll leave that likelihood up to you.   But if at the end of the season Trevor puts up mediocre stats, you'll have a guy going into his 5th year never having shown that he is a reliable and consistent top 10 QB.  As it pertains to my example HC, Ben Johnson, he chose to stay as an OC with Goff, turning down the Commanders job HC job.  I just don't see how Trevor Lawrence (plus contract) will convince him otherwise.

And he's going to go into his 5th year as a 25 year old QB with a 5th year cap number less than the 5th year on his rookie deal, then the next year he'll be making the cap number of a QB in 2024 while 6 more guys will moved ahead of him on that list. There's nothing wrong with the contract except that the play hasn't been good this year for whatever reason.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

"I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be." ...yet he's paid as if he's top 3.  Again if he puts up top ten numbers this year, it will be different... I'll leave that likelihood up to you.   But if at the end of the season Trevor puts up mediocre stats, you'll have a guy going into his 5th year never having shown that he is a reliable and consistent top 10 QB.  As it pertains to my example HC, Ben Johnson, he chose to stay as an OC with Goff, turning down the Commanders job HC job.  I just don't see how Trevor Lawrence (plus contract) will convince him otherwise.

And he's going to go into his 5th year as a 25 year old QB with a 5th year cap number less than the 5th year on his rookie deal, then the next year he'll be making the cap number of a QB in 2024 while 6 more guys will moved ahead of him on that list. There's nothing wrong with the contract except that the play hasn't been good this year for whatever reason.

I mean that's the whole point. He's making $12M/year MORE than Josh Allen whose deal expires in 2029, you can crunch the numbers as you will, but no matter how you do it Trevor Lawrence is getting overpaid based on his performance to date and he is locked in for the next several years.  If I'm a head coach candidate looking for my first shot (knowing that if I fail, it will likely be my last) I'm taking that fact into account.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to turn Trevor around, just that in comparison to other potential landing spots that it's a big risk.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

[quote pid="1644856" dateline="1727195987"]

And Goff then regressed and McVay took stafford on and forged the offense to him. Campbell is now taking Goff back to form . Shanahan has literally made every QB he’s touched look better. A right coach will be able to make Trevor realize his full potential (and before anyone plays gotcha, I’ve stated a million times Trevor isn’t elite and I don’t think he will be. I think he can be in the top half of this league with some borderline elite years with the right support around him. Aka basically what every team has to unless you have Kermit at QB)

That's hilarious. The wizard "QB whisperer" Shanahan moved up on a draft board and selected a bust of a QB.

But yes everything he touches turns into magic.
[/quote]

You conveniently ignore the fact that almost every year Shanahan has had there, his offense has clicked regardless of who is in at QB. It also helps that they focus on the trenches…

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And he's going to go into his 5th year as a 25 year old QB with a 5th year cap number less than the 5th year on his rookie deal, then the next year he'll be making the cap number of a QB in 2024 while 6 more guys will moved ahead of him on that list. There's nothing wrong with the contract except that the play hasn't been good this year for whatever reason.

I mean that's the whole point. He's making $12M/year MORE than Josh Allen whose deal expires in 2029, you can crunch the numbers as you will, but no matter how you do it Trevor Lawrence is getting overpaid based on his performance to date and he is locked in for the next several years.  If I'm a head coach candidate looking for my first shot (knowing that if I fail, it will likely be my last) I'm taking that fact into account.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to turn Trevor around, just that in comparison to other potential landing spots that it's a big risk.

I understand that but that’s the NfL now. Every QB who gets a new deal is gonna get overpaid. Cleveland and Watson (screw them) reset the market for better or for worse. And already, Trevor’s deal fell down the ladder with Tua and Prescott resetting again…and soon Allen will get a reworked deal I’m sure. Then the next QB….then the next.

If the jags hadn’t extended him, let him walk, and he lit it up elsewhere? You think this forum is toxic now? lol at that scenario.

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Are you serious? Winning is winning except when it’s not…lol. A Super Bowl berth and division titles is winning and it didn’t end there. They traded for stafford, who was considered a mid tier QB and a disappointment considering his draft hype, and he won a title. Great coaches make a difference and clearly Pederson isn’t doing that.

You brought McVay as a stepping stone and you said he had success with Goff. 

His QB in the SB had the following stats:


0 TDs, 1 INT, 59% passer rating. 

Missed a wide open guy in the EZ which couldve been a factor beating NE that SB year run. 

Under Stafford:

89% passer rating. 3 TDs 2 INT and a total of 283 passing yards.

This shows that you need a talented QB to be successful regardless of who the HC is.

You can only mask their weaknesses for so long.

Dude winning records and a SB berth is success, you are literally moving the goal posts every time you spurt words out. Just come out and say that unless they win the Super Bowl, it’s “failure”. By that definition, every QB and Coach in this league not named mahomes these past two seasons were not successful.

And using your own “stellar” criteria, Stafford was not a successful QB in Detroit given he only obtained a few winning years and wild card berth(s). Then McVay turned him into a success.

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So by your logic, Pederson is doing the complete opposite from what worked, because of what?

Passing overall around the league is down but just watch the Bills offense last night. They had so many players running wide open. The play designs and play calls were perfect. And their OL was perfect as well. 

How much of those players being wide open has to do with poor play by the defense?

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ImATexan

Trevor has the tools.  He needs to step up his leadership game though.  QBs like Manning and Brady visibly held their guys accountable in game when screw ups were happening.  Trevor is a little more laid back and even keel.  There's advantages to that calmness at times, but he needs to start barking at guys and getting pissed off and I'm not generally a proponent of the rah rah. 

Pederson alluded to this in his post game interview last night.  He quoted a saying that "bad teams are leaderless, mediocre teams are coach-led and elite teams are player-led" or something to that effect and said there were examples of vet guys on the team trying to lead but that it isn't where it needs to be yet.  Trevor has to be one of those guys given the position and salary.

I can promise you that Trevor putting his name on the stadium while accomplishing nothing in his career up to this point absolutely pissed off teammates. You can’t put yourself above the team, it was a total look at ME move. You make 55 million everyone gets it. Nobody would respect him yelling at them. Nobody.

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I mean that's the whole point. He's making $12M/year MORE than Josh Allen whose deal expires in 2029, you can crunch the numbers as you will, but no matter how you do it Trevor Lawrence is getting overpaid based on his performance to date and he is locked in for the next several years.  If I'm a head coach candidate looking for my first shot (knowing that if I fail, it will likely be my last) I'm taking that fact into account.  I'm not saying that it's impossible to turn Trevor around, just that in comparison to other potential landing spots that it's a big risk.

I understand that but that’s the NfL now. Every QB who gets a new deal is gonna get overpaid. Cleveland and Watson (screw them) reset the market for better or for worse. And already, Trevor’s deal fell down the ladder with Tua and Prescott resetting again…and soon Allen will get a reworked deal I’m sure. Then the next QB….then the next.

If the jags hadn’t extended him, let him walk, and he lit it up elsewhere? You think this forum is toxic now? lol at that scenario.

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You're missing an obvious step... Let him play on his (extended) rookie deal for 2 years to see if he has "IT."  If he does the contract costs you more money, but not nearly as much as the 5-year extension in case he doesn't.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Trevor has the tools.  He needs to step up his leadership game though.  QBs like Manning and Brady visibly held their guys accountable in game when screw ups were happening.  Trevor is a little more laid back and even keel.  There's advantages to that calmness at times, but he needs to start barking at guys and getting pissed off and I'm not generally a proponent of the rah rah. 

Pederson alluded to this in his post game interview last night.  He quoted a saying that "bad teams are leaderless, mediocre teams are coach-led and elite teams are player-led" or something to that effect and said there were examples of vet guys on the team trying to lead but that it isn't where it needs to be yet.  Trevor has to be one of those guys given the position and salary.

I can promise you that Trevor putting his name on the stadium while accomplishing nothing in his career up to this point absolutely pissed off teammates. You can’t put yourself above the team, it was a total look at ME move. You make 55 million everyone gets it. Nobody would respect him yelling at them. Nobody.

You think that was his idea? LOL.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato