The entire offense was bad. Besides Fred and Jimmy what other weapons did we have?

 

Just having a RB like that and a WR like that should have been enough for any competant QB to be able to lead an offense that wasn't so completely ineffective as it was at times under Byron. 

 

Byron's s-l-o-w ness is the reason for it. 

 

Once Garrard was installed as starter the team very rarely if ever scored less than double digits minimum in games. Byron's offense was held under 10 point more frequently than with Garrard. 

 

Again.....the offense was SHUT OUT at HOME with a playoff berth on the line vs a bad Texans team - and this was with a veteran Byron making his 20 something start, not a rookie. 

 

Sorry, make all the excusies you want for Byron, but I won't. 

---

Just having a RB like that and a WR like that should have been enough for any competant QB to be able to lead an offense that wasn't so completely ineffective as it was at times under Byron. 

 

Byron's s-l-o-w ness is the reason for it. 

 

Once Garrard was installed as starter the team very rarely if ever scored less than double digits minimum in games. Byron's offense was held under 10 point more frequently than with Garrard. 

 

Again.....the offense was SHUT OUT at HOME with a playoff berth on the line - and this was with a veteran Byron making his 20 something start, not a rookie. 

 

Sorry, make all the excusies you want for Byron, but I won't. 

 

Quite right. We can debate it like crazy in hindsight, but Byron wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire, and while it might just be scapegoating there's nothing to prove it either way. I'll just take Gene Smith and all the Jaguars radio guys' word for it when they say that Del Rio and Gene Smith wanted to play hardball and take Roethlisberger in 2004.

---

Quite right. We can debate it like crazy in hindsight, but Byron wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire, and while it might just be scapegoating there's nothing to prove it either way. I'll just take Gene Smith and all the Jaguars radio guys' word for it when they say that Del Rio and Gene Smith wanted to play hardball and take Roethlisberger in 2004.

Which means that you accept that Gene Smith drafted B.A.P. during his tenure here.  I'm sure he played 'hardball' when it came to picking Tyson Alualu and Bryan Anger.

---

I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

Quite right. We can debate it like crazy in hindsight, but Byron wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire, and while it might just be scapegoating there's nothing to prove it either way. I'll just take Gene Smith and all the Jaguars radio guys' word for it when they say that Del Rio and Gene Smith wanted to play hardball and take Roethlisberger in 2004.

 

I agree with that last part and hope in the future, thats exactly how we operate. 

---

Which means that you accept that Gene Smith drafted B.A.P. during his tenure here.  I'm sure he played 'hardball' when it came to picking Tyson Alualu and Bryan Anger.

 

I agree that both of these picks were the antithesis of selecting Roethlisberger at 8 in that other draft, 

---

Which means that you accept that Gene Smith drafted B.A.P. during his tenure here.  I'm sure he played 'hardball' when it came to picking Tyson Alualu and Bryan Anger.

 

No, I think the Roethlisberger over Williams pick should have been a no-brainer. Williams was being talked about as a possible second round guy heading into the draft and Vic in response to questions about the Jaguars working him out reasoned that they probably were looking at him for the 2nd round.

 

Taking a slow WR that couldn't get off the ground in the first half of the draft was a terrible move.

 

Gene Smith may have thought some guys were BAP, but he certainly didn't draft that way all the time. Of course his biggest problem was his lack of respect for the value of draft selections, he tossed them around like monopoly money. Like Vic used to say, draft selections are probably the most valuable thing in the whole NFL scheme.

---

No, I think the Roethlisberger over Williams pick should have been a no-brainer. Williams was being talked about as a possible second round guy heading into the draft and Vic in response to questions about the Jaguars working him out reasoned that they probably were looking at him for the 2nd round.

 

Taking a slow WR that couldn't get off the ground in the first half of the draft was a terrible move.

 

Gene Smith may have thought some guys were BAP, but he certainly didn't draft that way all the time. Of course his biggest problem was his lack of respect for the value of draft selections, he tossed them around like monopoly money. Like Vic used to say, draft selections are probably the most valuable thing in the whole NFL scheme.

I agree with you completely on the bold point. Honestly, the Reggie pick was the first time I doubted Shack's sanity. When he drafted Moonshine the next year, I knew the man had either forgotten everything Ozzie Newsome had taught him, or he didn't really learn much from Ozzie in the first place. Or he was just mad with power, one of those things. And again, with virtually any other position, I would agree with you completely that the Jaguars should've drafted the guy on top of their board (assuming Reggie wasn't on top of their board) and stockpiled, but not QB. Top-ten draft picks are too valuable to use two of them in two consecutive years on a QB.

 

Gene was just a mess of a GM. He was so busy trying to be the smartest guy in the room that he faked himself out by taking Alualu at ten under the belief that Miami was going to take him at twelve, or that Derek Cox was going to go in three, so he needed to cough up next year's two to get him, or that Bryan Anger was really more valuable than anyone else on the board because he would have "started" while the others would have been developmental backups.

---

I agree with you completely on the bold point. Honestly, the Reggie pick was the first time I doubted Shack's sanity. When he drafted Moonshine the next year, I knew the man had either forgotten everything Ozzie Newsome had taught him, or he didn't really learn much from Ozzie in the first place. Or he was just mad with power, one of those things. And again, with virtually any other position, I would agree with you completely that the Jaguars should've drafted the guy on top of their board (assuming Reggie wasn't on top of their board) and stockpiled, but not QB. Top-ten draft picks are too valuable to use two of them in two consecutive years on a QB.

 

Gene was just a mess of a GM. He was so busy trying to be the smartest guy in the room that he faked himself out by taking Alualu at ten under the belief that Miami was going to take him at twelve, or that Derek Cox was going to go in three, so he needed to cough up next year's two to get him, or that Bryan Anger was really more valuable than anyone else on the board because he would have "started" while the others would have been developmental backups.

 

The problem is you can turn that sentiment on its head.

 

Draft picks are valuable, but elite QBs are the most valuable of all things in the NFL. Much more valuable than top 10 draft picks. Look at what the Redskins gave up for RG3.

---

I disagree, by 2005 it became obvious that Byron wasn't going to be able to cut it, (the last straw for me was the 2005 Patriots playoff game), but there most certainly were enough signs pointing to that conclusion well before that game. Byron wasn't doing all that great in 2005, (good yes, great? no) - IMO it was an EXTREMELY easy schedule that year if you don't remember....think 2013 weeks 9 through 16 but longer. The Jags won 12 games that year largely because of that. Byron only looked like a decent NFL starter that year because of that. 

 

A HUGE red flag for me about Leftwich was in 2004 when we were GOOSE-EGGED at home by a BAD Texans team when we had a playoff berth on the line. I don't fault Leftwich for losing that game, but I do fault him for presiding over such an anemicly ineffective offense. It was something that plagued him all too much over his Jags career, and with Freddy T and Jimmy Smith there, there was zero excuse for that. 

 

 

The closing part of the 2005 schedule WAS very easy.  However, the first half of the schedule that year was tough.  Leftwich presided over wins against Seattle and Pittsburgh (both Super Bowl teams from that year) and Cincinnati ( a playoff team), and Baltimore (who was 9-7 the year before and had a decent defense).

 

Garrard was QB for those wins during the last few weeks of the season.

 

Leftwich accounted for more of the teams wins that year (7 wins) and against the tougher part of the schedule than Garrard (5 wins).

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

A couple of QBs went before Roethlisberger and turned out to be good, so apparently the teams before the Steelers that felt a great pull to take a QB took one.

None of those teams took QBs in the first round the year before.

 

Teams simply don't do that.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

And yet we still see it happen quite often.

 

Obviously only the truly bad, needs drafting GM do this, which is why the Patriots didn't draft Brady until the 6th round, why Seattle didn't draft Russell Wilson until the 3rd and Richard Sherman until the 5th.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

You can have a plan and be flexible which Caldwell is. He has also said as much. And no GM is doing what you suggest. Not one.

Green Bay?

---

I disagree, by 2005 it became obvious that Byron wasn't going to be able to cut it, (the last straw for me was the 2005 Patriots playoff game), but there most certainly were enough signs pointing to that conclusion well before that game. Byron wasn't doing all that great in 2005, (good yes, great? no) - IMO it was an EXTREMELY easy schedule that year if you don't remember....think 2013 weeks 9 through 16 but longer. The Jags won 12 games that year largely because of that. Byron only looked like a decent NFL starter that year because of that. 

 

A HUGE red flag for me about Leftwich was in 2004 when we were GOOSE-EGGED at home by a BAD Texans team when we had a playoff berth on the line. I don't fault Leftwich for losing that game, but I do fault him for presiding over such an anemicly ineffective offense. It was something that plagued him all too much over his Jags career, and with Freddy T and Jimmy Smith there, there was zero excuse for that. 

 

By the end of 2005. So 8 months after Rothlisberger was drafted?

---

Just to be different, Bortles.

The closing part of the 2005 schedule WAS very easy.  However, the first half of the schedule that year was tough.  Leftwich presided over wins against Seattle and Pittsburgh (both Super Bowl teams from that year) and Cincinnati ( a playoff team), and Baltimore (who was 9-7 the year before and had a decent defense).

 

Garrard was QB for those wins during the last few weeks of the season.

 

Leftwich accounted for more of the teams wins that year (7 wins) and against the tougher part of the schedule than Garrard (5 wins).

 

Seattle at 1pm on the East coast in hot humid conditions in a September game is nowhere even close to Seattle at their building. If you recall, Seattle wilted in that 2nd half. IIRC, the Jags completely shut them out in the 2nd half. Surprising no one that is familiar with the history of Seattle and most west coast teams coming east to play road games at 1pm....especially in adverse conditions. 

 

I don't remember the Jags playing Pittsburgh in 2005,....I remember the FG game, the 9-0 one in 2006...

 

That schedule in 2005 from win 3 to win 12 was "1972 Dolphins schedule" easy. 

---

Steelers draft philosophy has been BAP for decades so it is a crazy thought.

With all due respect, this is not true.

 

Steelers have been a heavy needs based team.

 

Example:  In 2000, Steed was injured/in decline.  If you recall that year was the year Fred Taylor punked them for 234 yards in TRS.  The very next year, they took Casey Hampton with their first round pick.

 

Example, in 2003, Maddox was the Steelers QB after leading them to the playoffs the year before.

 

2002, Maddox had a 62.1% completion percentage, with a 20-16 TD-INT ratio and an overall QBR of 85.2.

 

2003 Maddox had a 57.4% completion rate, with an 18-17 TD-Int ratio and an overall QBR of 75.3-TEN points lower than the year before.

 

He'd always been a journeyman passer.  He had one decent year, then he regressed.  Badly.

 

Lo and behold, the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger the next year.

 

Perhaps it was simply coincidence that BAP happened to coincide with a huge need.

 

But then explain the Jamain Stephens and Troy Edwards picks.

 

If BAP leads to superior selections and precludes busts, those picks should not have failed.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Seattle at 1pm on the East coast in hot humid conditions in a September game is nowhere even close to Seattle at their building. If you recall, Seattle wilted in that 2nd half. IIRC, the Jags completely shut them out in the 2nd half. Surprising no one that is familiar with the history of Seattle and most west coast teams coming east to play road games at 1pm....especially in adverse conditions. 

 

I don't remember the Jags playing Pittsburgh in 2005,....I remember the FG game, the 9-0 one in 2006...

 

That schedule in 2005 from win 3 to win 12 was "1972 Dolphins schedule" easy. 

 

Excuses.

 

There were plenty of road games Seattle won that year under adverse conditions, and there were other games they won at home where the conditions were not favorable to the visiting teams.  The Jaguars smoked Seattle...end of story.

 

Regarding the rest of the schedule...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/te...x/2005.htm

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

With all due respect, this is not true.


Steelers have been a heavy needs based team.


Example: In 2000, Steed was injured/in decline. If you recall that year was the year Fred Taylor punked them for 234 yards in TRS. The very next year, they took Casey Hampton with their first round pick.


Example, in 2003, Maddox was the Steelers QB after leading them to the playoffs the year before.


2002, Maddox had a 62.1% completion percentage, with a 20-16 TD-INT ratio and an overall QBR of 85.2.


2003 Maddox had a 57.4% completion rate, with an 18-17 TD-Int ratio and an overall QBR of 75.3-TEN points lower than the year before.


He'd always been a journeyman passer. He had one decent year, then he regressed. Badly.


Lo and behold, the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger the next year.


Perhaps it was simply coincidence that BAP happened to coincide with a huge need.


But then explain the Jamain Stephens and Troy Edwards picks.


If BAP leads to superior selections and precludes busts, those picks should not have failed.

My argument to this is how many times have we watched the steelers pass over offensive line men with such a huge need for them?


Just wondering from both side of the spectrum?

---

With all due respect, this is not true.

 

Steelers have been a heavy needs based team.

 

Example:  In 2000, Steed was injured/in decline.  If you recall that year was the year Fred Taylor punked them for 234 yards in TRS.  The very next year, they took Casey Hampton with their first round pick.

 

Example, in 2003, Maddox was the Steelers QB after leading them to the playoffs the year before.

 

2002, Maddox had a 62.1% completion percentage, with a 20-16 TD-INT ratio and an overall QBR of 85.2.

 

2003 Maddox had a 57.4% completion rate, with an 18-17 TD-Int ratio and an overall QBR of 75.3-TEN points lower than the year before.

 

He'd always been a journeyman passer.  He had one decent year, then he regressed.  Badly.

 

Lo and behold, the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger the next year.

 

Perhaps it was simply coincidence that BAP happened to coincide with a huge need.

 

But then explain the Jamain Stephens and Troy Edwards picks.

 

If BAP leads to superior selections and precludes busts, those picks should not have failed.

 

Some people get it.  Others just can't grasp it.  There is no 100% black and white BAP GM in the NFL.  I'm sure some adhere to it more then others, but need plays a role for all GM's.  Oklahomie can't accept that fact just like he couldn't accept the fact that Blaine Gabbert wasn't a good QB.

---

What GM isn't thinking he's selecting the best players?  They all do.  They all just don't execute, which separates the best from the rest.

---

"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

Some people get it.  Others just can't grasp it.  There is no 100% black and white BAP GM in the NFL.  I'm sure some adhere to it more then others, but need plays a role for all GM's.  Oklahomie can't accept that fact just like he couldn't accept the fact that Blaine Gabbert wasn't a good QB.

 

I think you already said this but I'd take it a step further and say that there is no pure BAP GM or pure NEED GM either. To only follow one way of thinking is too rigid in my opinion. There can always be a situation presented that makes going 100% with either method suboptimal.

 

Plus, I think it would make your thinking very predictable for the other teams.

---