My intention was to say that 'one-score games' line-of-thought doesn't carry much weight with me, not comparing the Jags and the Chiefs or assigning blame.

I’m of similar vein. I think our problem is we have a decent roster at the luxury positions. RB, a #1 WR, a franchise TE, good edge rushers. We neglected the essential positions minus QB or completely whiffed is the problem. So that talent is what kept us in it a lot of games, then we shoot ourselves in the foot because of 1. Bad play design 2. Imperfections by said good players (Trevor overthrow, ETN fumbles, WR drops, pass rushers pressuring but not finishing  etc) 3. Coaching incompetence 

To me one score losses will regress to the mean but only if we plug gaps in what should be priority positions minus QB

Along your line of thought here - the simplest way to outline fixing this 2025 team right now could be outlined in three steps. 

• Hire coaches that can get more consistent execution out of their players
  
• Fix the damn trenches (OL, IDL) Only a few talent upgrades needed  
  
• Fix the secondary (scheme and talent - one CB, two safeties)
  

In all honesty - if they can figure that out they are immediately a .500 or better team IMO. 
We'd like to see a few other pieces added too, and that is doable, but just those three things would shift the trajectory of this team very dramatically. 

On topic: I'm not worried about Trevor's 2024 performance. I saw the mistakes. 
I just think he can focus on getting those fixed more successfully when he's got a better system in place and more consistent protection. 

The next coaching staff will have break a few bad habits he has developed and I think Doug's system unfortunately fostered a few bad habits instead of rooting them out. It will be very interesting to see if the next HC/.OC/QB coach combo takes a more proactive approach. I really hope they do.

---

Yes because despite that fact we lost about 10 games by one score or less.  Many of their guys, create plays when the game is on the line.  The Defense was bad no doubt but so was the offense.  Are you forgetting the games where the offense kept going 3 and out and the defense stayed on the field for 40 mins a game? Or how about the few times the defense would create a turnover just for the crappy offense to give the ball right back.  Both is true is they both stunk so lets not point fingers like one was so much better than the other. This offense with Lawrence was awful at times this season.  I get your narrative it's on everyone else but I disagree.

Put Mahomes or Burrow on any team including the titans this past season and I am betting my bank they win the division.  Those Guys are in a complete different League than our guy.

---

9 out of the top 12 I would bet my bank they make the playoffs if they started for the Jaguars in 2024.

Not saying they don't have great QBs but it's much easier to create plays when you have guys like Chase and Higgins. Mahomes has the a top 2 All time TE, the fastest WR ever, traded for Hopkins, now Brown is back, the best interior oline in the league. Remember how bad the Bengals dominated us with a backup QB in Browning? Remember what the Chiefs done in the playoffs when Mahomes went down and Henne came in? It didn't matter because they have great coaching, and great to HOF type players on offense.  

It's crazy you couldn't see how bad this coaching was, Press was a horrendous play caller and Doug scheme is outdated.  The QB wasn't good by any means but Doug and Press did nothing to help the offense. There isnt a QB in this league that would have taken this team to the playoffs.  The Chiefs lost to the Colts last year when they played them, the Texans beat the Bills this year

A couple comments.

we lost about 10 games by one score or less -  I heard 1010 talking about this and it turns out greater than 80% of the games this year in the NFL were one score games. This is a useless stat when used to justify a team's lack of wins.  The Chefs have won 10 straight one score games this year on the way to a 15-2 record. If that was reversed they would have been 5-12.

No QB in the league is successful with constant pressure in their face, especially up the middle. Just look at Minnesota's Sam Darnold last week against the Lions. He average for the year an 82 PFF offense ranking completing 66% of his passes. Against the Lions he had a 45 ranking completing just 44% of his passes.

In my opinion Doug appears to be a nice guy but is not either an offensive or defensive guru. He is dependent upon the coordinators he hires to make him successful, this puts him at a disadvantage. Unfortunately, he also seems to lack the judgement to hire good ones. That is except the one time when he hired Frank Reich. (if it was him and not Luri)

Jacksonville's offense ranked dead last in time of possession. The Jag possessed the ball an average of 26 minutes of each game. This was down from 30 minutes the previous the year. The Jags scored an average of 18.8 points each game, down from 22.2 the previous year. Historically Doug's offense has averaged 22 points a game other than the one year Frank Reich was his OC when it averaged 29. Good offenses average between 27-33 ppg.

Jacksonville's defense ended up at #25 allowing 25.6 ppg. It was at best a very undisciplined with a tendency for players to be out of position. I could go on but much of what I would say has been beaten to death already. Good defenses allowed 18-22 ppg.

It would appear to me the more Doug's system and culture were ingrained in the team the less successful they were.

---

A new broom always sweeps clean.

Yes because despite that fact we lost about 10 games by one score or less.  Many of their guys, create plays when the game is on the line.  The Defense was bad no doubt but so was the offense.  Are you forgetting the games where the offense kept going 3 and out and the defense stayed on the field for 40 mins a game? Or how about the few times the defense would create a turnover just for the crappy offense to give the ball right back.  Both is true is they both stunk so lets not point fingers like one was so much better than the other. This offense with Lawrence was awful at times this season.  I get your narrative it's on everyone else but I disagree.

Put Mahomes or Burrow on any team including the titans this past season and I am betting my bank they win the division.  Those Guys are in a complete different League than our guy.

---

9 out of the top 12 I would bet my bank they make the playoffs if they started for the Jaguars in 2024.

Well you've already lost that bet considering Burrow wasn't even able to carry his own team to the playoffs, or win the Division this season (or last season)..

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

---

Well you've already lost that bet considering Burrow wasn't even able to carry his own team to the playoffs, or win the Division this season (or last season)..

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

Burrow plays in a division with the Browns who suck, the Steelers are about what the Texans are, a talented roster with a bad QB, and I'll give you the Ravens which they only play twice.  They lost to the Pats who we beat.  So the  Browns are like the Titans, the Steelers are like the Texans, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  The difference isn't what you are making it to be.

---

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

Burrow plays in a division with the Browns who suck, the Steelers are about what the Texans are, a talented roster with a bad QB, and I'll give you the Ravens which they only play twice.  They lost to the Pats who we beat.  So the  Browns are like the Titans, the Steelers are like the Texans, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  The difference isn't what you are making it to be.

AFC North
AFC South

There is no doubt that the AFC North is stronger.  Hell, the Bengals went 9-8 which should ring some bells.

---

NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Burrow plays in a division with the Browns who suck, the Steelers are about what the Texans are, a talented roster with a bad QB, and I'll give you the Ravens which they only play twice.  They lost to the Pats who we beat.  So the  Browns are like the Titans, the Steelers are like the Texans, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  The difference isn't what you are making it to be.

AFC North
AFC South

There is no doubt that the AFC North is stronger.  Hell, the Bengals went 9-8 which should ring some bells.

Like I said, the Browns are like the Titans they are about even, they have the top 2 picks in the draft.  The Steelers and Texans are about even, talented rosters but both need QBs, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  It's not like the Bengals only lost to the AFC North teams.  The Bengals lost to the Pats who we beat and have the 4th pick in the draft.

---

AFC North
AFC South

There is no doubt that the AFC North is stronger.  Hell, the Bengals went 9-8 which should ring some bells.

Like I said, the Browns are like the Titans they are about even, they have the top 2 picks in the draft.  The Steelers and Texans are about even, talented rosters but both need QBs, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  It's not like the Bengals only lost to the AFC North teams.  The Bengals lost to the Pats who we beat and have the 4th pick in the draft.

AFC North.           South.                  Diff
Raven 12W.          Texans 10W.       2
Steelers 10W.       Colts 7W.            3
Bengals 9W.         Jaguars 4W        5
Titans 3W.             Browns 3W.        0

The AFC North is 10 Wins Stronger.

---

NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Like I said, the Browns are like the Titans they are about even, they have the top 2 picks in the draft.  The Steelers and Texans are about even, talented rosters but both need QBs, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  It's not like the Bengals only lost to the AFC North teams.  The Bengals lost to the Pats who we beat and have the 4th pick in the draft.

AFC North.           South.                  Diff
Raven 12W.          Texans 10W.       2
Steelers 10W.       Colts 7W.            3
Bengals 9W.         Jaguars 4W        5
Titans 3W.             Browns 3W.        0

The AFC North is 10 Wins Stronger.

This shows exactly what I said.  You take the Bengals and Jags out because these are the 2 teams we are talking about.  Titans and Browns the same, Texans and Steelers the same, the Ravens are better than the Colts.  That's exactly what I said lol.

---

Well you've already lost that bet considering Burrow wasn't even able to carry his own team to the playoffs, or win the Division this season (or last season)..

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

I agree with you in one thread, and then you come here and say such silliness!!!

If Lawrence had a real coach, he'd be just as good if not better than Burrow.  The problem with Lawrence is that he's had a trash HC his rookie year.  Then he had Doug come in and make the scheme.  Then in is 3rd year, Doug got lazy and let Press Taylor take over the offense so that Doug could work on his short game over in Ponte Vedra.   

All while we had a terrible GM that could not care about protecting our QB.  

Trevor Lawrence makes all the throws.  He is a tough son of a gun.  He does everything he can to try and lift up this trash OC and HC and GM.  If we actually get a real HC and Front Office, we'd dominate the AFCS

---

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

I agree with you in one thread, and then you come here and say such silliness!!!

If Lawrence had a real coach, he'd be just as good if not better than Burrow.  The problem with Lawrence is that he's had a trash HC his rookie year.  Then he had Doug come in and make the scheme.  Then in is 3rd year, Doug got lazy and let Press Taylor take over the offense so that Doug could work on his short game over in Ponte Vedra.   

All while we had a terrible GM that could not care about protecting our QB.  

Trevor Lawrence makes all the throws.  He is a tough son of a gun.  He does everything he can to try and lift up this trash OC and HC and GM.  If we actually get a real HC and Front Office, we'd dominate the AFCS

Based on what??????  This is the type of statement that makes absolutely no sense, and has absolutely 0 facts/stats to support it.  The absolute best I can give the Trevor supporters is "We still don't know yet." or "I think he has a chance to be." To come out and state as-a-fact that Trevor IS as good or is better than a top 4 QB is utter nonsense.

Burrow Career Stats
Lawrence Career Stats

---

NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

I agree with you in one thread, and then you come here and say such silliness!!!

If Lawrence had a real coach, he'd be just as good if not better than Burrow.  The problem with Lawrence is that he's had a trash HC his rookie year.  Then he had Doug come in and make the scheme.  Then in is 3rd year, Doug got lazy and let Press Taylor take over the offense so that Doug could work on his short game over in Ponte Vedra.   

All while we had a terrible GM that could not care about protecting our QB.  

Trevor Lawrence makes all the throws.  He is a tough son of a gun.  He does everything he can to try and lift up this trash OC and HC and GM.  If we actually get a real HC and Front Office, we'd dominate the AFCS

Based on what??????  This is the type of statement that makes absolutely no sense, and has absolutely 0 facts/stats to support it.  The absolute best I can give the Trevor supporters is "We still don't know yet." or "I think he has a chance to be." To come out and state as-a-fact that Trevor IS as good or is better than a top 4 QB is utter nonsense.

Burrow Career Stats
Lawrence Career Stats

You're talking to a guy there that thought until very recently that 99.9% of the Jags problems began and ended with Press Taylor. After several months of being educated by others here - he realized he was also very upset with Doug Pederson. LOL

So clearly - Trevor Lawrence would have thrown for 5000 yds with 44 TDs, 7 INTs and walked across the Atlantic Ocean to get to the London games if anyone else were coaching him. 

I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

---

Based on what??????  This is the type of statement that makes absolutely no sense, and has absolutely 0 facts/stats to support it.  The absolute best I can give the Trevor supporters is "We still don't know yet." or "I think he has a chance to be." To come out and state as-a-fact that Trevor IS as good or is better than a top 4 QB is utter nonsense.

Burrow Career Stats
Lawrence Career Stats

You're talking to a guy there that thought until very recently that 99.9% of the Jags problems began and ended with Press Taylor. After several months of being educated by others here - he realized he was also very upset with Doug Pederson. LOL

So clearly - Trevor Lawrence would have thrown for 5000 yds with 44 TDs, 7 INTs and walked across the Atlantic Ocean to get to the London games if anyone else were coaching him. 

I'm exaggerating, but not by much.

To be fair it would only be 43 TDs.

---

“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

?!?!?!

I think you're right, the division WAS awful and we missed a golden opportunity to take advantage. How many games did we start out down 2 scores before we even crossed midfield? How many times did we call boneheaded plays at the absolute worst times? How many times did the D force a turnover and put us in prime position to shift momentum our way?

There's a reason the coach got fired. Shad realized the exact same thing you did, and there's no explaining why we did the miserable things we did when we did them. The team failed to use the talent we had in a way to capitalize on a weak division. We repeatedly put our team in position to fail and had no answer when teams found ways to whoop our hides.

Kyler Murray is a #1 pick. Bryce Young is a #1 pick. Maybe you are expecting too much of one person? Do you think Mahomes would thrive in what we purported to be an offense last season? Burrow? who?

The correct answer is that both Mahomes and Burrow would both outperform Lawrence in the Jags 2024 offense, and you can several other names to that list.  If that can't be agreed to, then you've hopelessly driven off a cliff.

But is our expectation that our #1 QB just outperform the 2024 stats, or is it that we obliterate those marks? How do you think Murray, Young, heck, Herbert, Tua or other top ten QB fare?

I think we can all agree that Mahomes and Burrow are the two best QB in the league, and yes, everyone should expect them to maximize potential of those around them. They're not the QB you get in any darft, though. My point is that if we are holding TLaw to the standard of #1 pick, maybe we should be looking at the other #1 picks to say whether he's comparable.

I certainly would love TLaw to be in the same conversation as Joey B, Mahomes or even Allen, but so would 25 or so other fanbases, too. If that's the standard, you're not ever going to be satisfied.

---

Trevor is fine, you see qb miss throws all the time but yet when it happens to Trevor it's an issue. Look at the weekend games, Love, Herbert and nix. They all had overthrow, misses and lots of INT combined.

Playcalling has been an issue here since we had urban Meyer. We haven't been creative since we had Hackett which is pretty sad.

---

Well you've already lost that bet considering Burrow wasn't even able to carry his own team to the playoffs, or win the Division this season (or last season)..

Apples to oranges.  Burrow plays in a much tougher and possibly the most tough division in the NFL with both the Ravens and the Steelers.

Put Burrow in place of Lawrence in this same past season.  I am breaking my neck to bet on the Jags makng the playoffs.  Burrow is miles better than Lawrence.  Lawrence isn't a bad QB but he is not great either.  Lawrence can be streaky and great at times but he isn't that dude.

That’s because you’re a degenerate, Daniel. And your Jets ain’t never gonna do squat.

---

We had the 32nd ranked defense in the league most of the season until the last couple weeks, still finished 2nd to last along with the last ranking passing D.  We had the 25th run offense. Burrow didn't even make the playoffs and he has Chase, and their D was better than ours yet you think any QB would have led this team to the playoffs let alon 9 or 10?  Lol.

---

Mahomes and Burrow wouldn't have taken this team to the playoffs.  I'd be willing to bet a team that was last in passing D, 31st in overall D, and 25th in rushing has never made the playoffs.  We have much bigger issues than the QB right now

This statement is counter to the 'We lost so many one-score games' that people are talking about in defense of the Jaguars roster.  It's particularly apt in that Mahomes was on the exact other-side of the 'one-score games' argument having 16 wins in a row.

5 of Mahomes' 15 wins included a 4th quarter comeback. That means two-thirds of their games they never relinquished their third quarter lead. How often were we in position to seal a victory versus scrambling to play catch-up?

We lost a lot of close games, yes, but it was because not only could we not jump way ahead of people, we were either entrenched in an early deficit and fell short, or in the times where we did get the lead in the fourth, our D let the other team march on down the field and take the dub.

---

Trevor is fine, you see qb miss throws all the time but yet when it happens to Trevor it's an issue.  Look at the weekend games, Love, Herbert and nix. They all had overthrow, misses and lots of INT combined.

Playcalling has been an issue here since we had urban Meyer.  We haven't been creative since we had Hackett which is pretty sad.

I don't think calling better plays would have yielded a better result.  The problem was poor run-blocking and bad defense.  When you can't reliably run the ball and you can't stop the other team on defense, the quarterback has an impossible job.

---

The correct answer is that both Mahomes and Burrow would both outperform Lawrence in the Jags 2024 offense, and you can several other names to that list.  If that can't be agreed to, then you've hopelessly driven off a cliff.

But is our expectation that our #1 QB just outperform the 2024 stats, or is it that we obliterate those marks? How do you think Murray, Young, heck, Herbert, Tua or other top ten QB fare?

I think we can all agree that Mahomes and Burrow are the two best QB in the league, and yes, everyone should expect them to maximize potential of those around them. They're not the QB you get in any darft, though. My point is that if we are holding TLaw to the standard of #1 pick, maybe we should be looking at the other #1 picks to say whether he's comparable.

I certainly would love TLaw to be in the same conversation as Joey B, Mahomes or even Allen, but so would 25 or so other fanbases, too. If that's the standard, you're not ever going to be satisfied.

Well, I'm of the mind that the coaches platitude, "Where you were drafted ends once you suit up for your first day of practice." is the way to go.  Now that's never actually true, first round picks always get the benefit of the doubt and they get many more opportunities to prove their abilities than a lower rounded pick, but the truth is that 1st round picks bust %50 of the time, including the #1 QBs that are chosen at that position.

If you redrafted the 2017 draft, the vast majority of teams would trade 2 or 3 1st rounders to go up and select Patrick Mahomes at #1 as opposed to #10.  And the actual #1 pick, Trubisky, would likely have fallen to the 3rd round.  So my point is that comparing him to to other #1 picks doesn't really get you anything.

And finally to answer your question, I think the reasonable expectation is that your QB improves each year.  I think after Lawrence started to look like a proper QB in the second half of 2022 and the beginning of 2023, he started to regress and that's after leading the entire league in turnovers.  You can blame injuries in 2023 if you'd like, but to begin 2024 he regressed further with (and I think everyone agrees) an improved Offensive Line and a clear #1 receiver.  So my expectation would be that he improved in 2023 over 2022, and improved in 2024 over 2023.

---

NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Trevor is fine, you see qb miss throws all the time but yet when it happens to Trevor it's an issue.  Look at the weekend games, Love, Herbert and nix. They all had overthrow, misses and lots of INT combined.

Playcalling has been an issue here since we had urban Meyer.  We haven't been creative since we had Hackett which is pretty sad.

I don't think calling better plays would have yielded a better result.  The problem was poor run-blocking and bad defense.  When you can't reliably run the ball and you can't stop the other team on defense, the quarterback has an impossible job.

There were a few situations where playcalling absolutely killed us, in particular the Browns safety.

I think the way we routinely opened flat suggested that playcalling and/or game prep was distinctly lacking. So yeah, had we been able to come out of the gate and put some points on the board with any consistency, results may have differed.

---

But is our expectation that our #1 QB just outperform the 2024 stats, or is it that we obliterate those marks? How do you think Murray, Young, heck, Herbert, Tua or other top ten QB fare?

I think we can all agree that Mahomes and Burrow are the two best QB in the league, and yes, everyone should expect them to maximize potential of those around them. They're not the QB you get in any darft, though. My point is that if we are holding TLaw to the standard of #1 pick, maybe we should be looking at the other #1 picks to say whether he's comparable.

I certainly would love TLaw to be in the same conversation as Joey B, Mahomes or even Allen, but so would 25 or so other fanbases, too. If that's the standard, you're not ever going to be satisfied.

Well, I'm of the mind that the coaches platitude, "Where you were drafted ends once you suit up for your first day of practice." is the way to go.  Now that's never actually true, first round picks always get the benefit of the doubt and they get many more opportunities to prove their abilities than a lower rounded pick, but the truth is that 1st round picks bust %50 of the time, including the #1 QBs that are chosen at that position.

If you redrafted the 2017 draft, the vast majority of teams would trade 2 or 3 1st rounders to go up and select Patrick Mahomes at #1 as opposed to #10.  And the actual #1 pick, Trubisky, would likely have fallen to the 3rd round.  So my point is that comparing him to to other #1 picks doesn't really get you anything.

And finally to answer your question, I think the reasonable expectation is that your QB improves each year.  I think after Lawrence started to look like a proper QB in the second half of 2022 and the beginning of 2023, he started to regress and that's after leading the entire league in turnovers.  You can blame injuries in 2023 if you'd like, but to begin 2024 he regressed further with (and I think everyone agrees) an improved Offensive Line and a clear #1 receiver.  So my expectation would be that he improved in 2023 over 2022, and improved in 2024 over 2023.

This is primarily what I want to see next season - was the issue TLaw, or the playbook? He's out of Doug/Press's system, so do we see improvement? I think that's the biggest reason why everyone wants an offensive mind leading the team - Doug's system seemed so...plain, and I can't help but wonder if it was limiting our effectiveness. Even after we allegedly improved weak spots, results were the same. Still couldn't convert short yardage, messed the bed whenever we entered the red zone. Turnovers down, but was that at the expense of aggression?

We will likely know a whole lot more of the answer this time next year and likely sooner.

---