I'm curious what fans want the defensive identity to be?

Personally - as sexy as it is to have a bunch of ball-hawking cover guys in the secondary that disguise coverage and bait QBs into throws - I kind of still lean towards a smash mouth DL that consistently makes QBs uncomfortable by collapsing pockets and sealing off/pressuring the edges.Give me a DC that actually implements the blitzes and stunts Nielsen promised but never delivered. 

(back in August I thought Walker-Armstead-Hamilton-JHA was going to be able to do what I'm talking about here. 
Armstead didn't get enough reps there, Hamilton never returned to pre injury/illness form, and the DC neutered the whole line with mind numbing substitutions. 

Having both a sexy secondary and powerhouse line would be amazing of course, but we all know the likelihood of that happening in one offseason here. 

We are one piece away potentially of being a powerhouse front on the DL if we draft or acquire an impact pocket disruptor IMO.  It hinges a bit on Maason Smith developing and Armstead doing what we sort of expected last year when he finally gets significant snaps at DT, but it feels doable. 
And yes some depth at DE is also a need, even if it isn't as integral to the success of that line. They need that spell guy and he needs to have a decent pressure rate and run stop ability. 

The next challenge for the new DC to me (after hopefully  getting that line completed with talent) is to figure out how to use our linebacking corps to play smarter in both phases - run and pass. 
Miller may be in a place this offseason to take the next step, Lloyd needs to have a defined role and get coached up on how to play it with more discipline (gap integrity and fewer coverage confusions) and hopefully we can get  back to another year of Oluokun being the boss in the middle that limits runs as well as any backer in the league and makes a few plays in coverage. 

At that point - so much pressure will be taken from the secondary that they could play quite well by just executing fundamentals and incorporating just a moderate amount of creativity with safety assignments and disguises. I don't want a ton of soft zone and giving up the underneath stuff to limit big plays constantly, but I don't think forcing man coverage too often is the answer either. Install the requisite packages for both and be adept at when to call them from week to week and play to play situationally. 
Still need a CB opposite Campbell and improved safeties from a roster standpoint, but we've got some money and we've got extra picks. 

TL;DR
I want a smash mouth defensive front with smarter LB play dialed up, and then the secondary doesn't have to be elite in year one of this regime reset.

I answered this yesterday. I think it would serve the team better overall by reverting back to a more traditional 4 - 3 look. With Walker playing a true 4-3 LE and Hines-Allen back to a true 4-3 RE role. Giving us Armstead and Smith featured predominately inside, or, Hamilton and Smith based on FSG's comments on Armstead's age and viability as a pass rusher.

I think we should move Lloyd to a traditional weakside look, giving him opportunities or stabs at running as a potential free blitzer in obvious situations and we should keep Miller inside as the mike backer since he's more of a run defender and thumper. This then allows us to move Oluokon to run and gun from the strongside while being stacked in coverage situations if needed against a TE.

Secondary wise. We need new safeties in my opinion. Both positions need to be upgraded. I cited the Vikings losing Bynum in March possibly. Would offer him a decent contract to bring him over. Would then start eyeing another safety to play opposite of him in the draft. Potentially addressing it in RD2 - RD4 with prospects like Xavier Watts, Lathan Ransom, Kevin Winston Jr. or Hunter Wohler.

The CB position is interesting. Campbell has lingering injury concerns. Even at five, you're looking at Will Johnson potentially with soft tissue injuries. This then leaves Jarrian Jones at nickel and maybe Prince in the mix somewhere. Darby was a bust. Brown was beginning to get beat later on in the season. We clearly need help at CB.

A good rotational EDGE presence would help the secondary as well. So, we'll see. Beefing up the backend at safety would help tremendously though. Putting our aces in their places so they can thrive would also help upfront.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I like this debate about D's and my answer is still the same it's been for the last 5 years. D's that can get consistent pressure by just rushing 4 will always have success. It makes it so much easier for the D as they can drop extra guys in coverage, it makes O's play a lot more short, quick passes which again helps the D.

We're seeing a lot of teams just play 2 high safeties all game long to try and take away deep balls and if your getting pressure with 4, it becomes a matchup between CB's and LB's and slot WR's, TE's, RB's. Now a DB may make a mistake or a WR makes a great play but usually an O will have to put a 9-12 play drive together with short to medium passes. What makes this an advantage for the D is that the O needs to get positive yards on nearly every play to put a drive together and stay out of 3rd and long whereas the D just needs one or two good plays to kill a drive or force a turnover. It basically puts all the pressure of a mistake on the O

Watching the Wildcard games, it's no surprise the teams that advanced all had strong run games they could lean on and that starts making the D adjust and change it's style and then suddenly it's the D who have all the pressure now

Also of course how a teams O plays also defines a lot about how the D plays. If you've got a high scoring O then opponents will probably have to be more aggressive to keep up but if your O can only score 17 a game then that D needs to be able to do a lot of different things well.

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I like this debate about D's and my answer is still the same it's been for the last 5 years. D's that can get consistent pressure by just rushing 4 will always have success. It makes it so much easier for the D as they can drop extra guys in coverage, it makes O's play a lot more short, quick passes which again helps the D.

We're seeing a lot of teams just play 2 high safeties all game long to try and take away deep balls and if your getting pressure with 4, it becomes a matchup between CB's and LB's and slot WR's, TE's, RB's. Now a DB may make a mistake or a WR makes a great play but usually an O will have to put a 9-12 play drive together with short to medium passes. What makes this an advantage for the D is that the O needs to get positive yards on nearly every play to put a drive together and stay out of 3rd and long whereas the D just needs one or two good plays to kill a drive or force a turnover. It basically puts all the pressure of a mistake on the O

Watching the Wildcard games, it's no surprise the teams that advanced all had strong run games they could lean on and that starts making the D adjust and change it's style and then suddenly it's the D who have all the pressure now

Also of course how a teams O plays also defines a lot about how the D plays. If you've got a high scoring O then opponents will probably have to be more aggressive to keep up but if your O can only score 17 a game then that D needs to be able to do a lot of different things well.

This^^  I completely agree! If your DL can't get pressure, and you have to rely on a blitz package to get to the QB you're going to burned sooner or later.  The blitz should be sprinkled in to keep the offense on their toes, but definitely shouldn't be part of the general defensive scheme.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

I'm curious what fans want the defensive identity to be?

Personally - as sexy as it is to have a bunch of ball-hawking cover guys in the secondary that disguise coverage and bait QBs into throws - I kind of still lean towards a smash mouth DL that consistently makes QBs uncomfortable by collapsing pockets and sealing off/pressuring the edges.Give me a DC that actually implements the blitzes and stunts Nielsen promised but never delivered. 

(back in August I thought Walker-Armstead-Hamilton-JHA was going to be able to do what I'm talking about here. 
Armstead didn't get enough reps there, Hamilton never returned to pre injury/illness form, and the DC neutered the whole line with mind numbing substitutions. 

Having both a sexy secondary and powerhouse line would be amazing of course, but we all know the likelihood of that happening in one offseason here. 

We are one piece away potentially of being a powerhouse front on the DL if we draft or acquire an impact pocket disruptor IMO.  It hinges a bit on Maason Smith developing and Armstead doing what we sort of expected last year when he finally gets significant snaps at DT, but it feels doable. 
And yes some depth at DE is also a need, even if it isn't as integral to the success of that line. They need that spell guy and he needs to have a decent pressure rate and run stop ability. 

The next challenge for the new DC to me (after hopefully  getting that line completed with talent) is to figure out how to use our linebacking corps to play smarter in both phases - run and pass. 
Miller may be in a place this offseason to take the next step, Lloyd needs to have a defined role and get coached up on how to play it with more discipline (gap integrity and fewer coverage confusions) and hopefully we can get  back to another year of Oluokun being the boss in the middle that limits runs as well as any backer in the league and makes a few plays in coverage. 

At that point - so much pressure will be taken from the secondary that they could play quite well by just executing fundamentals and incorporating just a moderate amount of creativity with safety assignments and disguises. I don't want a ton of soft zone and giving up the underneath stuff to limit big plays constantly, but I don't think forcing man coverage too often is the answer either. Install the requisite packages for both and be adept at when to call them from week to week and play to play situationally. 
Still need a CB opposite Campbell and improved safeties from a roster standpoint, but we've got some money and we've got extra picks. 

TL;DR
I want a smash mouth defensive front with smarter LB play dialed up, and then the secondary doesn't have to be elite in year one of this regime reset.

To have this identity i think first and foremost you have to be great D at stopping the run.  If you have an issue stopping the run you cant be a smash mouth defense.  Right now we have a problem stopping the run.  We need a moster in the middle that is a beast against stopping the run and also can push the pocket and pressure the QB and cause havoc in the backfield.

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I'm curious what fans want the defensive identity to be?

Personally - as sexy as it is to have a bunch of ball-hawking cover guys in the secondary that disguise coverage and bait QBs into throws - I kind of still lean towards a smash mouth DL that consistently makes QBs uncomfortable by collapsing pockets and sealing off/pressuring the edges.Give me a DC that actually implements the blitzes and stunts Nielsen promised but never delivered. 

(back in August I thought Walker-Armstead-Hamilton-JHA was going to be able to do what I'm talking about here. 
Armstead didn't get enough reps there, Hamilton never returned to pre injury/illness form, and the DC neutered the whole line with mind numbing substitutions. 

Having both a sexy secondary and powerhouse line would be amazing of course, but we all know the likelihood of that happening in one offseason here. 

We are one piece away potentially of being a powerhouse front on the DL if we draft or acquire an impact pocket disruptor IMO.  It hinges a bit on Maason Smith developing and Armstead doing what we sort of expected last year when he finally gets significant snaps at DT, but it feels doable. 
And yes some depth at DE is also a need, even if it isn't as integral to the success of that line. They need that spell guy and he needs to have a decent pressure rate and run stop ability. 

The next challenge for the new DC to me (after hopefully  getting that line completed with talent) is to figure out how to use our linebacking corps to play smarter in both phases - run and pass. 
Miller may be in a place this offseason to take the next step, Lloyd needs to have a defined role and get coached up on how to play it with more discipline (gap integrity and fewer coverage confusions) and hopefully we can get  back to another year of Oluokun being the boss in the middle that limits runs as well as any backer in the league and makes a few plays in coverage. 

At that point - so much pressure will be taken from the secondary that they could play quite well by just executing fundamentals and incorporating just a moderate amount of creativity with safety assignments and disguises. I don't want a ton of soft zone and giving up the underneath stuff to limit big plays constantly, but I don't think forcing man coverage too often is the answer either. Install the requisite packages for both and be adept at when to call them from week to week and play to play situationally. 
Still need a CB opposite Campbell and improved safeties from a roster standpoint, but we've got some money and we've got extra picks. 

TL;DR
I want a smash mouth defensive front with smarter LB play dialed up, and then the secondary doesn't have to be elite in year one of this regime reset.

If you have a DL that can get to the QB, those bad throws and turnovers will come. You can't give a QB 5 seconds to make an errant throw, it'll rarely happen, unless you're playing against Bortles. You don't need a defensive backfield of Darelle Revises and Eds Reed if the QB is running scared.

Regardless of scheme or alignment, you can't be light in the pants up front. I don't care about specifics, but I certainly don't want our identity to be "the one that has to deal with 2nd and 3 consistently....and fails."

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Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

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Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

While there may be more LB in general, is it true that pure pash rush OLB are easier to find than good/great DE's? 

Also in a 4-3, isn't it more likely that you drop a OLB into coverage?

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For an identity how about .... Tootsie Roll Pops? Hard on the outside soft in the middle? Also as the game goes on and you get through that hard outside you get to the soft inside.

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

Agreed. If I am paying you multimillion dollars or have invested quality draft picks on you to begin with? You better be dying, injured or in desperate need of water before I pull you off the field. 

When I found out during that Eagles game that Walker and Hines-Allen were playing a [BLEEP] game of rock, paper, scissors to determine who would be on the field when that fumble happened and we ran it back for a TD?

I thought it was funny at first. Until I realized how [BLEEP] dumb it was and how many times we may have missed out on other plays like that because of this stupid [BLEEP] approach.

It happened a little in offense as well.  There were 3 different times where the game was on the line and we went to our 3rd string RB .  The Eagles game, the Raiders game, and one more.  Our last play on offense with the game on the line we go to our 3rd string RB lol

There are, honestly, times like this where I literally think someone has been paid NOT to make the logical decisions.  Not even the "smart" decisions, but the easy..smart decisions that anyone that's watched a season of football would make.  Both sides of the ball.

Scheming up exotic blitzes where the QBs don't know where the pressure is coming from?   I've seen playoff teams do it ...well, maybe not the CHargers, but how often, when the Jags need to get the other team off the field before they score a game winning drive, did the Jags dial up a blitz that ACTUALLY LOOKED LIKE THE OPPOSING QB WAS INCONVIENCED AT ALL?

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The Other Jag Forum: Duval Football Fans.

Brandon Scherff is no longer that dude.   Next season I want him gone.

Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

While there may be more LB in general, is it true that pure pash rush OLB are easier to find than good/great DE's? 

Also in a 4-3, isn't it more likely that you drop a OLB into coverage?

Back in the day that used to be the appeal of the 3-4, teams like the Steelers would draft undersized DE's to use as pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in the 3rd and 4th rounds.  In the modern era, pass rushers are a premium position.  So there really isn't any discount any longer.

And yes, the 4-3 WOLB, in particular, typically stays in coverage in a base 4-3.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

I like this trendy 2 deep and blitz like mad defensive style that guys like Flores are unleashing. The good QBs are just too good to play straight up against. Keep two deep to limit giving up chunk plays and then you gotta take chances to create drive ending plays...turnovers and sacks. If they can complete a methodical 10+ play drive without giving up a turnover or sack or big penalty or whatever, kudos to them.

We don't have the secondary pieces for it yet (maybe Will Johnson will help a ton with that), but Devin Lloyd was a hell of a pass rusher for a LB in college and Jarrian Jones said blitzing was his favorite thing to do after his sack vs the Titans. Exotic blitz packages should be a staple of our defense.

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Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

Not sure you got the whole story.

The reason the 3-4 was so effective early on with Pitt was that NOBODY else was running it, so they had their pick of the tweeners while everyone else scrambled and clawed to get the best guys that fit their archaic 4-3 formations. They killed it, valuewise, in acquiring players to fit their scheme. Nowadays, there's so many teams running 3-4 or hybrid schemes that you're not going to have an unfair advantage when it comes to building your roster.

At this point, it's more about hitting on your picks than running counter to the norm. Just because there's a lot of linebackers out there doesn't mean they are good, or that shifting your philosophy will make it easier to build your roster.

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While there may be more LB in general, is it true that pure pash rush OLB are easier to find than good/great DE's? 

Also in a 4-3, isn't it more likely that you drop a OLB into coverage?

Back in the day that used to be the appeal of the 3-4, teams like the Steelers would draft undersized DE's to use as pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in the 3rd and 4th rounds.  In the modern era, pass rushers are a premium position.  So there really isn't any discount any longer.

And yes, the 4-3 WOLB, in particular, typically stays in coverage in a base 4-3.

this guy gets it. Beat me to the punch.

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What do you want this defense to be like?

"Defense, What is best in life?"

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women".

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

Not sure you got the whole story.

The reason the 3-4 was so effective early on with Pitt was that NOBODY else was running it, so they had their pick of the tweeners while everyone else scrambled and clawed to get the best guys that fit their archaic 4-3 formations. They killed it, valuewise, in acquiring players to fit their scheme. Nowadays, there's so many teams running 3-4 or hybrid schemes that you're not going to have an unfair advantage when it comes to building your roster.

At this point, it's more about hitting on your picks than running counter to the norm. Just because there's a lot of linebackers out there doesn't mean they are good, or that shifting your philosophy will make it easier to build your roster.

---

Back in the day that used to be the appeal of the 3-4, teams like the Steelers would draft undersized DE's to use as pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in the 3rd and 4th rounds.  In the modern era, pass rushers are a premium position.  So there really isn't any discount any longer.

And yes, the 4-3 WOLB, in particular, typically stays in coverage in a base 4-3.

this guy gets it. Beat me to the punch.

That's why they started lumping them all together under the "Edge" designation and those players span anywhere from 6'1" 220 to 6'8" 290 pounds.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

One thing is clear is that Hines-Allen/Walker are not enough. This team needs a couple of big nasties in the middle to collapse the pocket.

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Ketchman convinced me with his 3-4 philosophy. It allows an organization to collect talent from a larger available pool, the linebackers. I will always love a 4-3 beacuase I grew up watching Reggie White as a kid, though

Not sure you got the whole story.

The reason the 3-4 was so effective early on with Pitt was that NOBODY else was running it, so they had their pick of the tweeners while everyone else scrambled and clawed to get the best guys that fit their archaic 4-3 formations. They killed it, valuewise, in acquiring players to fit their scheme. Nowadays, there's so many teams running 3-4 or hybrid schemes that you're not going to have an unfair advantage when it comes to building your roster.

At this point, it's more about hitting on your picks than running counter to the norm. Just because there's a lot of linebackers out there doesn't mean they are good, or that shifting your philosophy will make it easier to build your roster.

---

Back in the day that used to be the appeal of the 3-4, teams like the Steelers would draft undersized DE's to use as pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in the 3rd and 4th rounds.  In the modern era, pass rushers are a premium position.  So there really isn't any discount any longer.

And yes, the 4-3 WOLB, in particular, typically stays in coverage in a base 4-3.

this guy gets it. Beat me to the punch.

Thanks for the info. The bold part I agree with entirely; it seems to put a need for debate to rest. Just win, baby.

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I like this trendy 2 deep and blitz like mad defensive style that guys like Flores are unleashing. The good QBs are just too good to play straight up against. Keep two deep to limit giving up chunk plays and then you gotta take chances to create drive ending plays...turnovers and sacks. If they can complete a methodical 10+ play drive without giving up a turnover or sack or big penalty or whatever, kudos to them.

We don't have the secondary pieces for it yet (maybe Will Johnson will help a ton with that), but Devin Lloyd was a hell of a pass rusher for a LB in college and Jarrian Jones said blitzing was his favorite thing to do after his sack vs the Titans. Exotic blitz packages should be a staple of our defense.

The defenses are also getting better at shifting their zone defenses from play-to-play as well, rather than consistently staying in a traditional tampa-2 where there is a consistent hole in the middle of the field (for example.)  Even though you're blitzing, it is still comes down to having a strong front 4 in your DL.  If you get the offensive line having to double-team a strong DL player (or two) it opens up the seams for the blitzes to get through.  

The best DC's wait for the for the right time to send a LB/S/CB through a seam, especially if they see the offensive line over-committing to a DL player.  Like anything else it's about being effective when you call it.  Blitzing is always a bit of a gamble, and if the other team has a QB that can quickly alert and throw to a hot route the defense will pay for the gamble--this is also why the fake-blitz is particularly popular this year.  They want the QB to alert, then the pseudo-blitzers pull back to cover the hot route.

The natural counter to the 2-deep shell is a bullish running game and quick passing.  So in the ever evolving cycle of defense vs. offense I think that the road-grading OL and a stout inside RB are going to come back into fashion to counter it.  You can look at the Raven's who are already there.

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NYC4jags Wrote:
Can we leave the personal insults behind for a while and get back to some semblance of topic, gents?
Please, and thank you.

Right, that's all correct and what I'd want. Put the QB in a blender trying to identify where blitzes are, or aren't, coming from.

Yeah it's riskier and if it doesn't work then you'll give up yards as I said. But the 2 deep will keep it in front of them and the defense will have to go through a long, methodical drive in this fashion without messing up at all. If they can do it good for them. NFL teams do put up points. But I bet that over the course of that 10+ play drive we'd get a sack, or a turnover, or a penalty, or simply a bad drop or whatever.

You're gonna have to pick your poison one way or another, plus I think our personnel is built for it having Lloyd and Jones already adept at blitzing.

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If the next DC isn't designing sneaky blitz packages like Spags, he may as well stay on the plane.

Key is...having 4 guys that can get pressure, but also being able to show 8 guys on the defensive line and sending 7 of them before the Oline has time to block.

Spags was magical today. Stroud's pocket awareness is not that great though.

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The Other Jag Forum: Duval Football Fans.

Brandon Scherff is no longer that dude.   Next season I want him gone.

One thing is clear is that Hines-Allen/Walker are not enough.  This team needs a couple of big nasties in the middle to collapse the pocket.

100%, and it’s a shame considering the investment in them. Ive never seen them take over a big game.  JHA’s best performance came week 17 against the tacks this past season, thanks dude big help. Look how dominate Jalen Carter was. Absolute BEAST. Verse and Fiske look to have a promising futures Will Anderson doing his thing. Lions were clearly missing Hutch, but he’s their game wrecker. Chiefs got Chris Jones, who always shows up in big games. 
We should already have that type of game wrecker on our line, we spent the #1 and #7 picks on DEs. Spent a boat load of money to Armstead. Spent the 48th pick on Smith. Spent money on Hamilton. This D line is 100% underperforming given the resources spent.

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