I'm sorry what is your point on immigration? So you think you need guns to protect yourself from gun wielding immigrants? You sound so paranoid, you really could do with experiencing other countries and cultures.

 

Again with the assumptions. For someone telling me to get out more you sure seem to need to take your own advice. 

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

So what was your point about Switzerland then? No doubt you have never even left the USA to go to such a country.


Australia now has its lowest ever homicide rate and has had no gun massacre's since the legislation. It is evidence that gun control to some degree works. That doesn't make it Utopia but It is nice to enjoy proper freedom of being able to go wherever you like without feeling the need to go armed because you are scared of being attacked like you lot seem to be.

You've made several incorrect but pointless assumptions about me. That aside claiming Australia like of crime is a result of less guns is countered by Switzerland lack of crime as a result of more guns.

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Your point would be relevant if Switzerland had strong gun laws and had loosened them which had led to fewer homicides or mass shootings.


Flsoports. I get out plenty, hence I'm an immigrant myself being British.

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Disarming me is unnecessary, I've never owned a gun, nor have I been attacked. My home in Jacksonville was burglarized 3 times when I wasn't home. Ironically, my roommate's .38 was stolen during one of those burglaries.

 

My fear is being in a crowded public location and some nut starts shouting something crazy, reaches into his pocket and several well-meaning but untrained citizens open fire without regard to collateral damage.

 

I would be ok with that. Mass shootings that haven't been stopped by civilians with a firearm have a death average of 14 while mass shootings that have been stopped by civilians with a firearm have a death average of 2. I like 2 better than 14, so I will take my chances with the kook with a .380 in his pocket.

 

I'll go dig for the source.

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Your point would be relevant if Switzerland had strong gun laws and had loosened them which had led to fewer homicides or mass shootings.


Flsoports. I get out plenty, hence I'm an immigrant myself being British.

Guess I'll break it down,


Switzerland has very pro-private ownership gun laws the population is heavily armed and trained. Australia has very anti-private ownership gun laws the population is vastly disarmed. Both countries have less gun crimes then America. Since they have essentially opposite approach to gun legislation yet yield nearly the same results it stands to reason there is much more to the story.


Basically repeating Australia proves less guns = less gun crime is [BLEEP] and Switzerland proves it.

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Guess I'll break it down,


Switzerland has very pro-private ownership gun laws the population is heavily armed and trained. Australia has very anti-private ownership gun laws the population is vastly disarmed. Both countries have less gun crimes then America. Since they have essentially opposite approach to gun legislation yet yield nearly the same results it stands to reason there is much more to the story.


Basically repeating Australia proves less guns = less gun crime is [BAD WORD REMOVED] and Switzerland proves it.

Well, yes. Most problems we face are more complex than a single variable.


For instance, I believe Switzerland is a very homogenous society. Where as Australia is more heterogeneous, like America... I could be wrong, but that's just my impressions of those two societies. . I also think Switzerland had alot more social welfare for citizens, whereas Australia is more in line with our austerity approach to society...


I'm away from my computer, so I can't fact check this... But if my theory is correct, it would then seem that Australia's approach would work better for the US than Switzerland's.

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Well, yes. Most problems we face are more complex than a single variable.


For instance, I believe Switzerland is a very homogenous society. Where as Australia is more heterogeneous, like America... I could be wrong, but that's just my impressions of those two societies. . I also think Switzerland had alot more social welfare for citizens, whereas Australia is more in line with our austerity approach to society...


I'm away from my computer, so I can't fact check this... But if my theory is correct, it would then seem that Australia's approach would work better for the US than Switzerland's.

Switzerland may also have a better mental health system and methods of identifying unstable people early on in their lives, development etc and getting them the treatment that may help them and prevent a going postal scenario

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We have a mental illness problem. Guns don't shoot themselves, and they don't brainwash those that have them into committing murders.



So, in other words, you don't actually have a solution?


Registered dealers? Who allows it? Are there a certain number of "registered" dealers? Does the government have the option of limiting the number of dealers and thus the number of people that have guns?


Guns registered to an owner? While you obviously don't believe it to be possible, I don't want the government to know who has guns because I don't trust them to allow me to keep it. Should they choose to, they'll be able to seize these weapons. It's happened in other countries throughout history.


You get fined for losing it? What are you implying? How would the government know that it's lost? Are they going to check on me and my weapons... just to make sure?


Almost everyone that has had a weapon stolen will report it as such. There's literally no benefit of not doing it.


If anything, your suggestions pose more problems than it resolves. You assuming it fixes something, but you don't explain how it would. The only thing it'll do is limit the number of gun owners. Since nearly all gun crimes are committed by criminals with (already) unlawful possession of the gun, they'd continued to carry them and victimizing innocents. Before you claim that they'll be tracked and less likely to fall into their hands, all one would have to do is report it stolen. The person buying from the unregistered seller would already be committing a crime, and it wouldn't change the outcome. The seller only needs to claim that it was stolen; the government wouldn't be able to prove otherwise.

Oh come on, it wouldn't be any different from getting a hunting or fishing license. Let's not make this harder than it needs to be. Your registered dealers would be brick and morter stores (Walmart, gander mtn, gun stores). No more gun shows. No more giving a gun to your mentally unstable son who legally cannot possess a gun.

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Oh come on, it wouldn't be any different from getting a hunting or fishing license. Let's not make this harder than it needs to be. Your registered dealers would be brick and morter stores (Walmart, gander mtn, gun stores). No more gun shows. No more giving a gun to your mentally unstable son who legally cannot possess a gun.

 

So in other words, a gun can't be given as a gift?

 

Ever stop to think that maybe the guy's father wasn't aware of his son's mental instability?

 

Once again as liberals often do, you propose addressing the outcome of an incident by expanding government reach, costs, etc. rather than addressing the real issue, that being mental illness.  Included as part of the mental illness is the issue of racism.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I would be ok with that. Mass shootings that haven't been stopped by civilians with a firearm have a death average of 14 while mass shootings that have been stopped by civilians with a firearm have a death average of 2. I like 2 better than 14, so I will take my chances with the kook with a .380 in his pocket.

 

I'll go dig for the source.

 

To add to that, responsible, legally permitted gun owners who carry are usually more likely to be better trained on the use of firearms.  When was the last time you heard of someone with a concealed carry permit who just started opening fire without regard for potential collateral damage?  I

 

have my permit, and I've undergone several training classes to be proficient with my firearms.  I also spend a lot of time practicing with my firearms to improve my skills and to be as in tune with my weapon as possible. 

 

When I'm carrying, I tend to be far more aware of my surroundings and what is happening around me, and there have been plenty of times when I've thought through a scenario where I would need to pull my gun.  I pray it never happens, but I'm confident that if I did pull my weapon, I wouldn't be firing into a crowd.  If I couldn't draw a bead on a target without concern for what's between me and said target AND what is behind it, I'm not going to pull the trigger.  Even for home protection, training dictates that if you're going to shoot an intruder, think about what's beyond your target in case you miss, or the bullet passes through. 

 

I know a lot of gun owners and every one of them takes the responsibility seriously.  To a person, if you talk to them about the "what if's" that can come up, the last thing they will do is draw and fire.  That is the absolute worst case scenario. 

 

I was in a local retail establishment just last week and there was a patron in there who was getting aggressive with the salesman because he wasn't getting resolution to a problem. At one point, the conversation got very heated, and the guy put hands on the salesman.. The poor manager tried to intervene, but there was a language barrier involved, and he wasn't doing much to diffuse the situation.  At one point, the customer backed up and acted like he was about to pounce, and all of a sudden he reached for his waistband like he was going to grab something (never saw a weapon, but you just never know).  I was with my wife and a female sales person, and very quietly moved to get between this guy and them.  Fortunately, the customer's wife saw what was happening, and how the other customers were reacting, and she jumped up and grabbed the guy and dragged him out of the store.  I never even reached for the gun, but I knew that if he had one and decided to pull it on this salesman, I was going to be forced to make a quick decisions and it was going to become a very unpleasant day.  Thankfully, it didn't come to that, but in the span of probably 10 seconds, the training I have received kicked in and I was positioning myself to draw and fire cleanly if necessary.  My hands were still shaking 20 minutes later as the adrenalin finally eased up.  

 

I actually had a conversation with the pastor at my church over the weekend because I know we don't have adequate security in the event that someone were to walk into our church during mass.  I had inquired after the Charleston shooting to find out if a security audit we'd had done a few years back by JSO had reaped us any changes.  Other than a perimeter fence and electronic locks, they hadn't really gone much further, but even my pastor was shaken up over the Charleston shootings.  We're supposed to meet with several officers in our parish this week to come up with a plan for having some form of visible security on our campus any time there is an event, but that doesn't address smaller gatherings and meetings on the campus.  Under Florida law, I can't carry on the campus because there's an accredited school on the campus, Not wanting to risk a felony charge, I comply with the laws.

 

As more information about the Charleston shooter comes out, there were an awful lot of flags going up that people either chose to ignore, or they simply didn't think he was serious. His roommate says he planned this for up to 6 months, and was intent on targeting either a church or college campus.  Why?  Gun free zones.  He knew he'd likely face no opposition.  He was right.

 

The good news here is that despite his best efforts to spark a race war, it looks like Charleston might actually buck the trends we've seen in Ferguson and Baltimore.  Rather than mob rule, there's been an outpouring of love and emotion over this shooting.  There were certainly a few there who were trying to stir the pot, but the overwhelming majority of those who were on the ground there fought to find the good in this tragedy.  The usual suspects who are known for arriving on the scene to create turmoil were basically squeezed out by those who were intent on trying to find a way to stop the nonsense we've seen nationwide with other high profile events. 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Oh come on, it wouldn't be any different from getting a hunting or fishing license. Let's not make this harder than it needs to be. Your registered dealers would be brick and morter stores (Walmart, gander mtn, gun stores). No more gun shows. No more giving a gun to your mentally unstable son who legally cannot possess a gun.

 

Who gave a gun to their mentally unstable son who legally could not possess a gun? 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So in other words, a gun can't be given as a gift?


Ever stop to think that maybe the guy's father wasn't aware of his son's mental instability?


Once again as liberals often do, you propose addressing the outcome of an incident by expanding government reach, costs, etc. rather than addressing the real issue, that being mental illness. Included as part of the mental illness is the issue of racism.

Yea, the free market is really taking care of the lack of mental health care in America, let me tell you.

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Yea, the free market is really taking care of the lack of mental health care in America, let me tell you.

And obamacare is doing such a better job, let me tell you.  Much like the job that the VA does.

---

There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Yea, the free market is really taking care of the lack of mental health care in America, let me tell you.

 

There's a lack of mental healthcare in America?  Really?

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

To add to that, responsible, legally permitted gun owners who carry are usually more likely to be better trained on the use of firearms.  When was the last time you heard of someone with a concealed carry permit who just started opening fire without regard for potential collateral damage?  I

 

have my permit, and I've undergone several training classes to be proficient with my firearms.  I also spend a lot of time practicing with my firearms to improve my skills and to be as in tune with my weapon as possible. 

 

When I'm carrying, I tend to be far more aware of my surroundings and what is happening around me, and there have been plenty of times when I've thought through a scenario where I would need to pull my gun.  I pray it never happens, but I'm confident that if I did pull my weapon, I wouldn't be firing into a crowd.  If I couldn't draw a bead on a target without concern for what's between me and said target AND what is behind it, I'm not going to pull the trigger.  Even for home protection, training dictates that if you're going to shoot an intruder, think about what's beyond your target in case you miss, or the bullet passes through. 

 

I know a lot of gun owners and every one of them takes the responsibility seriously.  To a person, if you talk to them about the "what if's" that can come up, the last thing they will do is draw and fire.  That is the absolute worst case scenario. 

 

I was in a local retail establishment just last week and there was a patron in there who was getting aggressive with the salesman because he wasn't getting resolution to a problem. At one point, the conversation got very heated, and the guy put hands on the salesman.. The poor manager tried to intervene, but there was a language barrier involved, and he wasn't doing much to diffuse the situation.  At one point, the customer backed up and acted like he was about to pounce, and all of a sudden he reached for his waistband like he was going to grab something (never saw a weapon, but you just never know).  I was with my wife and a female sales person, and very quietly moved to get between this guy and them.  Fortunately, the customer's wife saw what was happening, and how the other customers were reacting, and she jumped up and grabbed the guy and dragged him out of the store.  I never even reached for the gun, but I knew that if he had one and decided to pull it on this salesman, I was going to be forced to make a quick decisions and it was going to become a very unpleasant day.  Thankfully, it didn't come to that, but in the span of probably 10 seconds, the training I have received kicked in and I was positioning myself to draw and fire cleanly if necessary.  My hands were still shaking 20 minutes later as the adrenalin finally eased up.  

 

I actually had a conversation with the pastor at my church over the weekend because I know we don't have adequate security in the event that someone were to walk into our church during mass.  I had inquired after the Charleston shooting to find out if a security audit we'd had done a few years back by JSO had reaped us any changes.  Other than a perimeter fence and electronic locks, they hadn't really gone much further, but even my pastor was shaken up over the Charleston shootings.  We're supposed to meet with several officers in our parish this week to come up with a plan for having some form of visible security on our campus any time there is an event, but that doesn't address smaller gatherings and meetings on the campus.  Under Florida law, I can't carry on the campus because there's an accredited school on the campus, Not wanting to risk a felony charge, I comply with the laws.

 

As more information about the Charleston shooter comes out, there were an awful lot of flags going up that people either chose to ignore, or they simply didn't think he was serious. His roommate says he planned this for up to 6 months, and was intent on targeting either a church or college campus.  Why?  Gun free zones.  He knew he'd likely face no opposition.  He was right.

 

The good news here is that despite his best efforts to spark a race war, it looks like Charleston might actually buck the trends we've seen in Ferguson and Baltimore.  Rather than mob rule, there's been an outpouring of love and emotion over this shooting.  There were certainly a few there who were trying to stir the pot, but the overwhelming majority of those who were on the ground there fought to find the good in this tragedy.  The usual suspects who are known for arriving on the scene to create turmoil were basically squeezed out by those who were intent on trying to find a way to stop the nonsense we've seen nationwide with other high profile events. 

 

Very interesting story FBT, and thank you for sharing.  I too have been in similar situations, and much like you, I try to stay very aware of my surroundings whether I happen to by carrying or not.  Many years ago prior to entering the military I served as a Deputy Sheriff, and some of the skills and habits that I learned have never left me.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Very interesting story FBT, and thank you for sharing.  I too have been in similar situations, and much like you, I try to stay very aware of my surroundings whether I happen to by carrying or not.  Many years ago prior to entering the military I served as a Deputy Sheriff, and some of the skills and habits that I learned have never left me.

 

It was really the oddest thing because after the guy and his wife left the store, I fully expected someone to call JSO, but they just went back to business as it was getting close to closing time. 

 

It drives my friends nuts, especially those who have gone through the same training.  Any time we're at a restaurant together, we're fighting over the seat that gives the best view of the entire restaurant. 

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

There's a lack of mental healthcare in America? Really?

Ever been to St Augustine? Crazy bums galore. They really don't need to be on the streets.

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Ever been to St Augustine? Crazy bums galore. They really don't need to be on the streets.

 

That doesn't mean there's a lack of mental healthcare, and I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by talking about the "market" in relation to the incident in Charleston.  Also, I'm still waiting on a response to the other question I asked you above.

---

Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

So in other words, a gun can't be given as a gift?


Ever stop to think that maybe the guy's father wasn't aware of his son's mental instability?


Once again as liberals often do, you propose addressing the outcome of an incident by expanding government reach, costs, etc. rather than addressing the real issue, that being mental illness. Included as part of the mental illness is the issue of racism.

So you are for socialized healthcare that includes mental health counseling? Cool...

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It was really the oddest thing because after the guy and his wife left the store, I fully expected someone to call JSO, but they just went back to business as it was getting close to closing time. 

 

It drives my friends nuts, especially those who have gone through the same training.  Any time we're at a restaurant together, we're fighting over the seat that gives the best view of the entire restaurant. 

 

LOL, I never sit with my back facing the entrance.  I know at work we sometimes get suspicious looks by some of the U.S. Customs guys coming into the building when they see a few of us outside on a day like today wearing a coat/jacket.  When you sit in a room that is probably around 60 or so degrees for any length of time, you do get pretty cold.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.