<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="The Eleventh Doctor" data-cid="503184" data-time="1435790758">
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So... because genocide is worse than slavery we should only say no to Nazi flags, and not to Confederate ones?  Yes, that's actually my argument to why there's a difference between the swastika and the battle cross.



Sure, you might have been taught it wasn't about slavery.  Just as people in the middle east are taught that the holocaust is a myth.  So will you forgive them for believing what they were taught?  After 10 years of public education in the United States, 4 years of college, and watching Ken Burns epic documentary, I still hold the belief that the reasons for the Civil War are far more complex than just the North wanted slavery abolished and the South didn't.  I never said it wasn't about slavery.  I AM saying it wasn't just about slavery.



Free Speech is all fine and good.  Individuals should be able to fly the flag if they want (and people are free to think about them what they want to think as well).  The flag should not be honored by our government.  If an individual wants a confederate, nazi, or even ISIS flag, they should have that right.  Stores however have the right to refuse to sell them.  Why should our government honor a flag of a group that rebelled against it, and failed, especially when to many it's come to be a symbol of racism.Not just for the actions of confederates, but for the actions of other groups as well.  Is flying a Confederate flag over a confederate cemetary on state grounds "honoring" the flag, or honoring the dead?  My argument is to honor the dead.  By the way, I think it sucks that to many the flag has become a symbol of racism.  I would love to know what Robert E. Lee would have thought about that modern perception.

 

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It's a shame that most of America is being taught that half of our nation was a bunch of war-mongering racists when nothing was further from the truth.

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It's a shame that most of America is being taught that half of our nation was a bunch of war-mongering racists when nothing was further from the truth.

Whatever you say, hoss.

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They also said one reason was because the north was bleeding the south.  THEY ALSO SAID SO THEMSELVES.

 

Then maybe you can help me out here.   Here are the Articles of Secession of South Carolina, Georgia, Texas,Mississippi,and Virginia.  

 

http://www.civilwar.org/education/histor...auses.html

 

This is a direct source.   Those states wrote Articles of Secession to explain why they were seceding.   These are their own words. 

 

Tell me where you can find the word "tariff."   

 

How about "tax?"  

 

Then tell me how many times the word "slave" or "slavery" appears.   

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So... because genocide is worse than slavery we should only say no to Nazi flags, and not to Confederate ones?


Sure, you might have been taught it wasn't about slavery.  Just as people in the middle east are taught that the holocaust is a myth.  So will you forgive them for believing what they were taught?


Free Speech is all fine and good.  Individuals should be able to fly the flag if they want (and people are free to think about them what they want to think as well).  The flag should not be honored by our government.  If an individual wants a confederate, nazi, or even ISIS flag, they should have that right.  Stores however have the right to refuse to sell them.  Why should our government honor a flag of a group that rebelled against it, and failed, especially when to many it's come to be a symbol of racism.Not just for the actions of confederates, but for the actions of other groups as well.  

 

Regarding the first part that is in bold.    Sure the Civil War was in part about slavery, but that wasn't the only issue.  It is but one of many issues.  The sad fact of the matter is that people today only focus on one "cherry picked" part of history rather than look at the big picture.

 

Regarding the second two bold statements.  Please explain how our government is "honoring" a flag.  Perhaps the correct term would be "respect" since the flag is flown over burial grounds and is part of our nation's history.  It's not about the flag, it's about honoring those that gave their lives while shaping our nation's history.  It's about remembering what happened in our past so that we never go back and make the same mistakes again.

 

I'm going to use an analogy here, and mods. if this is "over the line" please let me know and I'll remove this part of my post.  I do believe that it explains my point fairly and in a neutral way.

 

Many Christians use the symbol of the crucifix and display it not only in their houses of worship, but also in books, movies, television shows, on jewelry, etc..  What is the purpose of the symbol?  Is it not a symbol to remember what happened?  What was done to Jesus is a cruel and terrible thing.  Some may think that the act of crucifixion is "offensive".  Should that symbol be banned?

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Whatever you say, hoss.

 

Such an insightful comment from you.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Regarding the first part that is in bold.    Sure the Civil War was in part about slavery, but that wasn't the only issue.  It is but one of many issues.  The sad fact of the matter is that people today only focus on one "cherry picked" part of history rather than look at the big picture.

Slavery wasn't the only issue, but it was the main issue. Some groups would rather have you forget that little detail and focus on secondary issues, like the tariff, instead. Plenty of material has been posted in this thread to demonstrate that the Civil War was about whether or not states had the right to authorize ownership of slaves, and everything else was a secondary matter. It's not cherry-picking; it's reading the words of those who wrote the articles of secession instead of focusing solely on the words of apologists.

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Slavery wasn't the only issue, but it was the main issue. Some groups would rather have you forget that little detail and focus on secondary issues, like the tariff, instead. Plenty of material has been posted in this thread to demonstrate that the Civil War was about whether or not states had the right to authorize ownership of slaves, and everything else was a secondary matter. It's not cherry-picking; it's reading the words of those who wrote the articles of secession instead of focusing solely on the words of apologists.

 

The only reason that I use the term "cherry picking" is because a group seizes on that particular issue, then attaches "hate" to it.  Slavery was not about "hate" during the time that it was happening.  Did the whites and the relative few that owned slaves believe that blacks were an inferior race?  Absolutely.  However, you can't equate that particular time in history to today.  I argue that slaves were often treated "well" by their owners.  I don't know how to describe this without coming across as being an "advocate" of the practice.  However, slave owners did not want to "damage their property" and took relatively "good" care of them.  During that time slaves were pretty much "livestock" to their owners.  Whippings were usually the result of not doing what they were supposed to do, or the result of trying to escape.  Think about how a horse is "broken in".

 

Now was the practice wrong?  Absolutely.  However, once again we are talking about the late 1700's and the 1800's.  The common belief at the time was that the practice was "acceptable".

 

Now also understand the growth and the changes that were happening during that period.  The North was becoming more industrialized and relied on the raw goods produced in the South.  Much of the production of raw goods was dependent upon slavery.  In the South, the average family did not own slaves.  Slave ownership was considered a "status symbol" and the only ones that owned them were the families of the more wealthy people and larger plantation owners.  There were far more people in the South that never owned slaves and there were plenty in the North that did own them.

 

The real "hate" associated with the Confederate Battle Flag should really focus on the late 1800's and the early-to-mid 1900's.  It was common up to the early 1960's for there to be a "whites only" and a "colored only" anything including drinking fountains, restrooms, stores, restaurants, etc.  Again, this practice was considered "normal" until the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Interestingly, it was Democrats that had a strong opposition to the legislation.

 

The bottom line and my point is, the Confederate Battle Flag and The Civil War was not about "hate" as so many claim.  To me it symbolizes a struggle that we have eventually overcome as a nation (for the most part).  It's not just about The Civil War and it's not just about slavery, it's about how we as a country have turned around the wrongs of our past and is a reminder to never go down that road again.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

I would argue that relegating an entire group of human beings to "livestock" status is a form of hate, no matter how "well" you take care of them. It's not the same sort of hate as driving around in bedsheets waving a rebel flag and burning crosses in front yards is, but you'd have a very hard time convincing me that enslaving someone is an example of how much you care for them.

 

The rebel flag was not about overt hate in the 1860's. It was about treason. Hate entered the picture once the KKK started riding around burning crosses and lynching black people, and that's become its primary meaning to society today. Honestly, the rebel flag should have been removed from state flags and government property long ago and relegated to museums and the front lawns of "proud southerners" long ago for its original Civil War meaning alone. That governments continue to fly it 50 years after the Civil Rights movement is an insult to the people who were enslaved under it, and who were persecuted, sometimes murdered, by people waving it. I'll go back to the swastika again, because like it or not, that is a perfectly valid example of a symbol that was twisted from its original meaning into a symbol of utter hate, and one that very few (if any) countries in the western world would dare run up a flagpole. The difference is that the swastika was a symbol of good fortune. The rebel flag was a banner flown by traitors.

 

We shouldn't forget history, and the Civil War should be taught in textbooks for what it is: a failed rebellion fought over numerous causes, with the primary issue, and the one most frequently and most prominently cited in articles of secession, being the right of states to authorize slavery.

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Political correctness is ruining society. They say those that forget history are doomed to repeat it so......

 

I just think this is a fitting song for this thread

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM

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Political correctness is ruining society. They say those that forget history are doomed to repeat it so......


I just think this is a fitting song for this thread

Ain't that a buncha Canadians there? Must be from Southern Ontario.

The words have been changed to...The Night they drove Wayne Gretzky out of town.


They also sang about carrying a weight a long time. < The Weight >

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Blakes Life Matters

Been away for awhile and have not read all 18 pages but I have to ask, What will removing this flag accomplish?  Will it magically make racist who use this flag as a symbol change their opinion?  Will it magically transition persecuted  black Americans into successful businessmen?  Racist will continue to be racist and people that wish to be labeled as victims will continue to be such.  What is the end game here?  Can I also ask who ever watched the Dukes of Hazzard ever thought the show was about suppressing Black Americans because they had a Confederate Battle Flag on the roof of the General Lee?

 

For the love of  what ever you believe, stop looking for reasons to be offended.  Live and let live!  Turn the other cheek!  

 

As for those that choose to hate or be offended by what ever, I wish you luck, peace, joy and understanding in your lives.  The angst is not worth it.  

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

Been away for awhile and have not read all 18 pages but I have to ask, What will removing this flag accomplish?  Will it magically make racist who use this flag as a symbol change their opinion?  Will it magically transition persecuted  black Americans into successful businessmen?  Racist will continue to be racist and people that wish to be labeled as victims will continue to be such.  What is the end game here?  Can I also ask who ever watched the Dukes of Hazzard ever thought the show was about suppressing Black Americans because they had a Confederate Battle Flag on the roof of the General Lee?

 

For the love of  what ever you believe, stop looking for reasons to be offended.  Live and let live!  Turn the other cheek!  

 

As for those that choose to hate or be offended by what ever, I wish you luck, peace, joy and understanding in your lives.  The angst is not worth it.  

 

You're not black, are you?

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The sun's not yellow, it's chicken.

No and I was also not born during the civil war.  I am of Irish and Native American decent. Shall we talk about what my people went through?  Live and let live I say.

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Original Season Ticket Holder - Retired  1995 - 2020


At some point you just have to let go of what you thought should happen and live in what is happening.
 

No and I was also not born during the civil war.  I am of Irish and Native American decent. Shall we talk about what my people went through?  Live and let live I say.

 

The problem is, that particular flag has been co-opted by overt racists.   It's hard for people to see someone displaying it and not think the person is saying "I am a proud racist."    I think people have a perfect right to display that flag, but I hope they understand the message people are receiving when they see it.   I think most people would agree with me. 

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The problem is, that particular flag has been co-opted by overt racists.   It's hard for people to see someone displaying it and not think the person is saying "I am a proud racist."    I think people have a perfect right to display that flag, but I hope they understand the message people are receiving when they see it.   I think most people would agree with me. 

 

Do you view the Mexican flag the same way? It has also been co-opted by overt racists, in that case MEChA.

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"Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?"

Do you view the Mexican flag the same way? It has also been co-opted by overt racists, in that case MEChA.

I view it as a flag of rebellion against the lawful Spanish rulers

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Why was representation based on counting slaves - as 3/5 a person? What do you think Congress was dealing with regarding the Missouri Compromise (1820) and the Kansas and Nebraska Act (1854)?

^^ Factual.


The Southern secession was in fact due to both slavery and state rights. Meaning:


At the time, the amount of representation in Congress for Southern states partly depended on the ability to legally count slaves (3/5 of a person) towards census in order to garner more seats in the government. Southern states belonging to the same political party, it made it easier to pass legislations in their favor from the extra voting power.


Obviously, opposing political parties and states without the ability for extra representation was strongly against that.


Anyhoo,,, slavery was an absolute abomination. But, much like today's politics, there were other motives to do away with (or trying to keep it for the south) the practice.


It's very similar to today's debate about Amnesty/Immigration. Whether someone is for or against it in basic principle, may come down to extra voting power for one side of the political spectrum.


Of course the North thought slavery was wrong. But, it also didn't hurt their cause that doing away with the practice would severely hamper their political opposition's power in Congress (vice-versa for the southern states).


It was all political first/ humanitarian second.

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Anybody who still takes pride in waving, or using the Confederate Flag is just as evil as the murder who killed 9 people in a church.


Wave the flag, just don't get mad when people associate you with evil and a whole bunch of other things.

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Whether someone has a liberal, or conservative viewpoint, a authoritative figure should not lock a thread for the sole purpose to get the last word in all the while prohibiting someone else from being able to respond.

Anybody who still takes pride in waving, or using the Confederate Flag is just as evil as the murder who killed 9 people in a church.


 

 

Come on.   Not really.  

 

Now I'm starting to think we're making way too much of this flag thing.   Yes, to a lot of people it represents racism, and I hope the people who display it understand that.   But frankly, I'm ready to move on.   You can't force people to give it up.   Racism is legal.  

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I like Stars and I like Bars.

But IMO , I think the issue is many whites don't see it as racist, while most blacks do. Hence the divide.

Did people really think the Bubbas on Dukes of Hazard were racist rednecks? Or just good ole Southern boys?

Personally, I never viewed them or the car as a bunch of racists, but rather a piss poor tv show about some southern boys.

The debate will never end, and now, instead of debating mental health and gun laws after this heinous act, we are focusing on a friggin flag.

As mentioned before...perhaps leave the flag up and raise the killer up with it and let him dangle up there with it.


It's gotten so stupid that Lynyrd Skynyrd is getting blame as well.


Then there's the WalMart store that refused to put the flag on a cake. The person returned with an ISIS flag design. They made that one.

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Blakes Life Matters