Hardly. Whether or not you go to work today fulfills your destiny. You just think you're choosing, your destiny already chose.

so let me see if I understand you correctly...Say I was sick on a workday a few weeks ago and called in sick...You say that would have been predetermined for me to do that? Or let's say I wake up Tuesday morning in a rotten mood and decide I'm not going to work, that would also have been predetermined?

 

If it's already predetermined, then there is nothing we can do to alter it, so I can quit my job, become a public assistance dependant and ride life out on the system until destiny arrives, rather than work 60 hours a week and decide for myself where and what direction I want to steer my life towards?

 

Who chooses our destiny? Who said they could do that? What if I don't like my destiny? When does my destiny get determined? How do I know when I have reached my destiny? Have I already reached my destiny?

 

I believe life is all dependant on choices that you make...If I choose to rent a house all my life as opposed to owning one, is a choice not fate or destiny...If I choose to move to another state, it's a decision made to better myself and my future based on all available information at the time, not a predetermined event...

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Couldn't disagree more! Make a decision based on previous events is just the further exploration of free will. You asked why do I go to work, the answer is pay for purchases I have made or will make In the future. Those purchases where not predetermined. Where I go for lunch today is not set in stone. To me that is such a depressing way to view life, you'll only achieve what destiny had already laid out for you? I see no limits on life or what we can do besides what we limit ourselves to. Destiny is saying it's all in someone or something else's hands, religion leans on that assumption a lot as well and I reject that assumption in both cases. We are the masters of our fate good or bad no one or anything else will have a bigger impact on your fate then the reflection staring at you in the mirror.

I agree with Big E. Also this destiny stuff seems like an easy way to make excuses for yourself, and that's just not something I believe in.

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It's wasn't that hidden and it's a bunch of Mike Mularkey.


Discrediting someone based on their career or education level - Señor dice no bueno.

 

Usted tiene la razon, mi amigo.   :yes:

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Couldn't disagree more! Make a decision based on previous events is just the further exploration of free will. You asked why do I go to work, the answer is pay for purchases I have made or will make In the future. Those purchases where not predetermined. Where I go for lunch today is not set in stone. To me that is such a depressing way to view life, you'll only achieve what destiny had already laid out for you? I see no limits on life or what we can do besides what we limit ourselves to. Destiny is saying it's all in someone or something else's hands, religion leans on that assumption a lot as well and I reject that assumption in both cases. We are the masters of our fate good or bad no one or anything else will have a bigger impact on your fate then the reflection staring at you in the mirror.

 

Of course, just because I can make a better case than you can on this subject, or because I have put more thought and effort into this discussion, that doesn't mean I am right.   But I don't think you are thinking seriously about what I wrote.   You're kind of dismissing it out of hand without attempting to refute it logically, and I think my logic is pretty airtight.   But it's hard for people (you, for example) to take it seriously, because the implications can be kind of disturbing.  

 

The only way an action is not predetermined is if it happens spontaneously, without anything causing it.   In the case you cite, your purchases were all predetermined by previous events.   You saw a commercial, or something broke and it had to be replaced, or someone told you about something and you desired it.   It's all caused by prior events.  

 

If the laws of nature are constant  and  unchanging, then the future is caused by prior events.  It doesn't happen spontaneously without any cause.  Billiard balls on a billiard table don't move spontaneously; they are struck by something that causes them to move.   It's the same way with your thoughts and impulses.   They don't come from nowhere; they are all caused: by things you read, by people you interact with, by your environment and your genetic makeup. 

 

The only way you can say something is not predetermined is if it has no cause; if nothing happened prior to it that caused it to happen.  And I cannot think of a single thing that does not happen without a cause.  There are things we cannot yet explain, but they are all explainable (eventually) by science and logic.

 

When you go to lunch today, ask yourself why you made that decision.   Did someone tell you it's a good place to eat?   Have you had that type of food before, and you would like some more?   Where you go to lunch is a decision you make, but that decision is all caused by prior events.   In that way, the decision you make is inevitable- your mind adds up the pros and cons and the decision is made.   You were destined to eat there. 

 

And that's why I say that what you think of as free will is an illusion. 

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Of course, just because I can make a better case than you can on this subject, or because I have put more thought and effort into this discussion, that doesn't mean I am right. But I don't think you are thinking seriously about what I wrote. You're kind of dismissing it out of hand without attempting to refute it logically, and I think my logic is pretty airtight. But it's hard for people (you, for example) to take it seriously, because the implications can be kind of disturbing.


The only way an action is not predetermined is if it happens spontaneously, without anything causing it. In the case you cite, your purchases were all predetermined by previous events. You saw a commercial, or something broke and it had to be replaced, or someone told you about something and you desired it. It's all caused by prior events.


If the laws of nature are constant and unchanging, then the future is caused by prior events. It doesn't happen spontaneously without any cause. Billiard balls on a billiard table don't move spontaneously; they are struck by something that causes them to move. It's the same way with your thoughts and impulses. They don't come from nowhere; they are all caused: by things you read, by people you interact with, by your environment and your genetic makeup.


The only way you can say something is not predetermined is if it has no cause; if nothing happened prior to it that caused it to happen. And I cannot think of a single thing that does not happen without a cause. There are things we cannot yet explain, but they are all explainable (eventually) by science and logic.


When you go to lunch today, ask yourself why you made that decision. Did someone tell you it's a good place to eat? Have you had that type of food before, and you would like some more? Where you go to lunch is a decision you make, but that decision is all caused by prior events. In that way, the decision you make is inevitable- your mind adds up the pros and cons and the decision is made. You were destined to eat there.


And that's why I say that what you think of as free will is an illusion.

What your describing is cause and effect I don't think that proves or disproves destiny. Destiny would be if every cause could only lead to one effect but that's not the case at all.

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very interesting question posed... this also brings in Western vs eastern style philosophy. in a basic philosophy class, you learn of things like "i makers" in western philosophy that are basicly thinking mechanisms most people in western cultures use in which they inject their self as "i" into almost every line of thinking. while not totally absent in eastern philosophy, this style of thinking is much less prominent. to me, the OP's question is less about would you choose solution A or B, but rather, do noble and selfless acts even truly exist in today's western cultures. by that i mean, do people intentionally commit acts where they know going in they will reap zero personal gain or praise of any kind just because the act needed to be done.

 

would you take a bullet for someone even if you were not going to be recognized for doing so. some would say that is a lack of self preservation, but in alot of ways it is the most noble of acts. giving up everything just because it needed to be done with zero consideration of reward or personal praise.

I would if it were the right thing to do. I wouldn't care about personal reward or praise. To me lack of self preservation is losing the will to live or not defending yourself in a life or death situation or just giving up. It is not choosing to put someone else's life before yours.

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But there is a reason for the choices you make.   It may be your prior experience, or knowledge of the situation, or even your genetics and  upbringing, books you're read, people you talked to.  Choices are not spontaneous and random.  They all result from previous events.  

 

If you get up in the morning and decide to go  to work, there is a  reason for that decision.   You go to work because...?  And if you can answer that question, then there is a reason for going to work.   If there is a reason behind that choice, then it is not free will that drives that action; it was caused by prior events.  It is destiny.  You were always going to go to work.  Since the beginning of time, you were destined  to go to work, because every event is caused by prior events.

You and I actually think in similar ways in this matter.

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What your describing is cause and effect I don't think that proves or disproves destiny
. Destiny would be if every cause could only lead to one effect but that's not the case at all.

Agreed....Destiny didn't make me decide to buy that bottle of Pepsi when I went to buy a loaf of bread...I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout and said, man that sounds good right now so I bought it...That's not a predetermined event... That's called impulse buying because I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it...

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Agreed....Destiny didn't make me decide to buy that bottle of Pepsi when I went to buy a loaf of bread...I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout and said, man that sounds good right now so I bought it...That's not a predetermined event... That's called impulse buying because I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it...

Yes this is also a case of poor choice of product! You see coke is superior to Pepsi in every way if destiny was true in anyway you would have been blessed with a quality coke note that nasty stuff called Pepsi!

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Yes this is also a case of poor choice of product! You see coke is superior to Pepsi in every way if destiny was true in anyway you would have been blessed with a quality coke note that nasty stuff called Pepsi!

I switch back and forth...I'll drink Pepsi for awhile and then drink coke for awhile...none of them are good for me

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I switch back and forth...I'll drink Pepsi for awhile and then drink coke for awhile...none of them are good for me

Lol but at least coke taste good while it kills you

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What your describing is cause and effect I don't think that proves or disproves destiny. Destiny would be if every cause could only lead to one effect but that's not the case at all.

 

If you have the exact same causes, and the exact same set of circumstances, you will always have the exact same effects.  This is the basis of science. 

 

2 + 2 will always equal 4.   It will never equal 3 and it will never equal 5.  

 

All of our decisions are driven by multiple causes.   But if you put a particular person in the same exact particular situation, he will make the exact same decision every time.   Because there would be nothing to cause him to make a different decision.  

 

Science is based on this belief: that 2 plus 2 will always equal 4. 

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Agreed....Destiny didn't make me decide to buy that bottle of Pepsi when I went to buy a loaf of bread...I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout and said, man that sounds good right now so I bought it...That's not a predetermined event... That's called impulse buying because I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it...

 

Something caused your impulse: ".I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout..."  Plus you saw a commercial plus you were thirsty.   Your decision was caused.   And that's why you were destined to buy that Pepsi: because one event led to another which led to another.  

 

"I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it..."  If you are saying there was no reason for you to want that Pepsi, I don't buy that.   There were plenty of reasons (causes).   Thirst, advertising, knowledge of how it tastes based  on prior experience, etc.  

 

Everything that happens has a cause.   Nothing is truly spontaneous.   The billiard balls on the billiard table don't move themselves.  

 

Think of it this way: Energy cannot be created or destroyed.   That is one of the fundamental tenets of science.   So if energy cannot be created or destroyed, that means that the energy it took for you to make a decision and take whatever action you take came from somewhere else.  That energy had to be transferred from some other source.  That is the proof that everything has a cause and that nothing is truly spontaneous.  

 

So if everything has a cause and nothing is truly spontaneous, and 2 plus 2 always equals 4, then everything is caused, and  the exact same set of circumstances will lead to the exact same results every time.  Without that, there would be no science.  And that is why what you think of as free will is an illusion.  You and I are simply experiencing life.   We are passengers.    We think we have control over our own destiny, but we don't.  

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Something caused your impulse: ".I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout..." Plus you saw a commercial plus you were thirsty. Your decision was caused. And that's why you were destined to buy that Pepsi: because one event led to another which led to another.


"I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it..." If you are saying there was no reason for you to want that Pepsi, I don't buy that. There were plenty of reasons (causes). Thirst, advertising, knowledge of how it tastes based on prior experience, etc.


Everything that happens has a cause. Nothing is truly spontaneous. The billiard balls on the billiard table don't move themselves.


Think of it this way: Energy cannot be created or destroyed. That is one of the fundamental tenets of science. So if energy cannot be created or destroyed, that means that the energy it took for you to make a decision and take whatever action you take came from somewhere else. That energy had to be transferred from some other source. That is the proof that everything has a cause and that nothing is truly spontaneous.


So if everything has a cause and nothing is truly spontaneous, and 2 plus 2 always equals 4, then everything is caused, and the exact same set of circumstances will lead to the exact same results every time. Without that, there would be no science. And that is why what you think of as free will is an illusion. You and I are simply experiencing life. We are passengers. We think we have control over our own destiny, but we don't.

Sure that's one theory but there's no way to know that we will always make the same choice. For something to be scientific fact you have to be able to repeat the process and get the same results multiple times. We can only observe time in the present there's no going back and seeing If a different selections is made so you can't use science as proof. I can accept faith as a reason to believe in destiny perhaps you have faith that all decisions a predetermined and we are passengers but that's a religious discussion (even if your a secularist).

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Does anyone here believe in Moral Relativism (the philosophical view that judgments are true or false relative to a viewpoint?) or Moral Objectivism? (the idea that truth exists independently of people's feelings and beliefs?) or Moral Absolutism (the belief that there is a definitive right or wrong regardless of the circumstance)?

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Does anyone here believe in Moral Relativism (the philosophical view that judgments are true or false relative to a viewpoint?) or Moral Objectivism? (the idea that truth exists independently of people's feelings and beliefs?) or Moral Absolutism (the belief that there is a definitive right or wrong regardless of the circumstance)?

I don't particularly like any of those. Moral absolutism leads to radicalization. Moral relativism suggests that agreements are inherently impossible, because everyone's viewpoints differ. Moral objectivism is too black and white, suggesting that for any situation, there is only one right answer. All three exist in the world and in people's beliefs, but I lean more towards the idea that for any one situation, there are potentially multiple equally-correct truths, and you can't fully understand a situation until you're aware of all of them before making a decision.

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so let me see if I understand you correctly...Say I was sick on a workday a few weeks ago and called in sick...You say that would have been predetermined for me to do that? Or let's say I wake up Tuesday morning in a rotten mood and decide I'm not going to work, that would also have been predetermined?

 

If it's already predetermined, then there is nothing we can do to alter it, so I can quit my job, become a public assistance dependant and ride life out on the system until destiny arrives, rather than work 60 hours a week and decide for myself where and what direction I want to steer my life towards?

 

Who chooses our destiny? Who said they could do that? What if I don't like my destiny? When does my destiny get determined? How do I know when I have reached my destiny? Have I already reached my destiny?

 

I believe life is all dependant on choices that you make...If I choose to rent a house all my life as opposed to owning one, is a choice not fate or destiny...If I choose to move to another state, it's a decision made to better myself and my future based on all available information at the time, not a predetermined event...

 

Yes, you suffer from the illusion of choice. Work or stay home. College or grade school drop out. Republican or Democrat. All part of the illusion of free will. What makes you think that "you" made any of those decisions, that the decision was not made for you and whatever choice you made was yours? You could choose to pick up a pistol and shoot yourself right now. Whether or not you do is up to destiny, not you. If it's your destiny then you will, if it's not then you won't.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Something caused your impulse: ".I saw the bottle of Pepsi in the little cooler by the checkout..."  Plus you saw a commercial plus you were thirsty.   Your decision was caused.   And that's why you were destined to buy that Pepsi: because one event led to another which led to another.  

 

"I had zero intention of buying that Pepsi until I saw it and then I wanted it..."  If you are saying there was no reason for you to want that Pepsi, I don't buy that.   There were plenty of reasons (causes).   Thirst, advertising, knowledge of how it tastes based  on prior experience, etc.  

 

Everything that happens has a cause.   Nothing is truly spontaneous.   The billiard balls on the billiard table don't move themselves.  

 

Think of it this way: Energy cannot be created or destroyed.   That is one of the fundamental tenets of science.   So if energy cannot be created or destroyed, that means that the energy it took for you to make a decision and take whatever action you take came from somewhere else.  That energy had to be transferred from some other source.  That is the proof that everything has a cause and that nothing is truly spontaneous.  

 

So if everything has a cause and nothing is truly spontaneous, and 2 plus 2 always equals 4, then everything is caused, and  the exact same set of circumstances will lead to the exact same results every time.  Without that, there would be no science.  And that is why what you think of as free will is an illusion.  You and I are simply experiencing life.   We are passengers.    We think we have control over our own destiny, but we don't.  

I disagree...I drink very few soda products...I don't think that seeing a product in a cooler and then deciding to buy it is destiny...I believe things may happen for a reason, but a reason is not destiny...The reason was, I hadn't had a Pepsi in probaly 6 weeks or so and it just sounded good...Not everything that happens is destiny...I dialed a wrong number today, I'm sure that isn't destiny either

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Yes, you suffer from the illusion of choice. Work or stay home. College or grade school drop out. Republican or Democrat. All part of the illusion of free will. What makes you think that "you" made any of those decisions, that the decision was not made for you and whatever choice you made was yours? You could choose to pick up a pistol and shoot yourself right now. Whether or not you do is up to destiny, not you. If it's your destiny then you will, if it's not then you won't.

so choosing what pair of underware to put on every morning is part of my destiny? I don't believe that...

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Yes, you suffer from the illusion of choice. Work or stay home. College or grade school drop out. Republican or Democrat. All part of the illusion of free will. What makes you think that "you" made any of those decisions, that the decision was not made for you and whatever choice you made was yours? You could choose to pick up a pistol and shoot yourself right now. Whether or not you do is up to destiny, not you. If it's your destiny then you will, if it's not then you won't.

you didn't bother to answer this part of my post...

 

"If it's already predetermined, then there is nothing we can do to alter it, so I can quit my job, become a public assistance dependant and ride life out on the system until destiny arrives, rather than work 60 hours a week and decide for myself where and what direction I want to steer my life towards?

 

Who chooses our destiny? Who said they could do that? What if I don't like my destiny? When does my destiny get determined? How do I know when I have reached my destiny? Have I already reached my destiny?"

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