All of you would have been beaten daily had you gone to my High School.

I guess I'm fortunate I went to a diverse public high school of 3900 and not a vocational school for pseudo-tough wannabe bros who are only tough guys on anonymous media.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

What you are doing is lumping in gays and trans people with all manner of sexual deviations (i.e.- pedophilia, incest, rape) and they are NOT related. Bringing in these unrelated and truly offensive comparisons shows your lack of ability to face the questions on the how and the why head on.


My position is they do not have a choice in the matter. They are biologically born that way. WHY SHOULDN'T IT BE ACCEPTED AS LEGITIMATE WITH RESPECT TO THEIR SELF IDENTITY? (for real. Why not? Can your moral barometer allow you to answer this one without meltdown?)


Your position is.. that may be true, but in order for me to accept that they are born that way and NOT worthy of discrimination, I would need to also accept all manner of pedophiles, rapists, etc. It's a manure argument.


They are UNRELATED.


Keep in mind, EVERY other species on the planet displays similar behavior. Why do you hold gay frogs and ducks to a different standard?

We may not consciously choose certain intrinsic sincere impulses but that doesn't mean that they should all be expressed and or celebrated.


In your personal analysis you see same sex attraction as wholly separate from ANY OTHER form of sexual attraction that deviates from the heterosexual norm. That's fine. You are entitled to your oppinionon the matter.


At the same time you can't use the argument "they don't have a choice who they are attracted to" to justify one deviation while wholly excluding someone that "doesn't have a choice" in their attraction to per pubescent boys or girls.


Neither has a "choice" both would report the same intrinsic and sincere desire from birth.


But both do have a CHOICE in acting on their desires. We have no problem as a society condemning the peophile to a lifetime of bad sex. Why the double standard?

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What goes on between two consenting adults is nobody's damn business except those adults.  I'd think that would be a simple concept, but i'm sure it's hard for some to grasp.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

So you're saying it's plausible that if I raised you on Judy Garland records and nothing but Glee re-runs, you could be gay?


This is an absurd argument. Furthermore, I defy you to find a single gay person who will confess they are only gay because of their environment and upbringing.


It shows a complete lack of real world experience with LGBT people and a willingness to promote ideas you are thoroughly clueless on.

For someone who is giving out about people twisting arguments and being close minded,you are quite adept at twisting arguments and being close minded.


First off my views on gay people is based on people I grew up with/went to school with or met in college. Your not the only person alive to converse with gay people,despite your assertion that anyone with a different view to you clearly has no interaction with gay people.


Secondly I didn't say its the only reason a person is gay,some people are born gay and some people become gay over time,some people are straight for years then become gay. Its a matter of both nature and nurture. For instance there was a group of people in my school years ago,boys and girls,they were all straight from around 12-17/18 and then one by one they all started to come out as gay/lesbian. The whole group all 8 of them. Their social structure was predominantly gay and one by one they became gay,after being all mostly straight. All sound people but I would wager that not all of those people would become gay if you put them in different social groups in school. That's just one example I can give you.

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For someone who is giving out about people twisting arguments and being close minded,you are quite adept at twisting arguments and being close minded.


First off my views on gay people is based on people I grew up with/went to school with or met in college. Your not the only person alive to converse with gay people,despite your assertion that anyone with a different view to you clearly has no interaction with gay people.


Secondly I didn't say its the only reason a person is gay,some people are born gay and some people become gay over time,some people are straight for years then become gay. Its a matter of both nature and nurture. For instance there was a group of people in my school years ago,boys and girls,they were all straight from around 12-17/18 and then one by one they all started to come out as gay/lesbian. The whole group all 8 of them. Their social structure was predominantly gay and one by one they became gay,after being all mostly straight. All sound people but I would wager that not all of those people would become gay if you put them in different social groups in school. That's just one example I can give you.

It has become trendy for some people (especially women) to experiment with homosexuality around the age they head off to college. A lot of the women I knew who did were doing so because of pressures from hetero males trying to satisfy a fantasy. Is it possible this group of people were experimenting due to these pressures or is it possible these people were harboring these feelings all along, but waited to express them until they felt more secure in doing so (i.e. - away from their parents)? If you tell me all of these people were also very active in theater I think that is a red herring. I knew plenty of "straight" kids in high school who came out in college. I wouldn't call it a byproduct of their environment in any respect other than being away from their parents whose judgment they fear the most. What you describe is not an unheard of phenomenon.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

It has become trendy for some people (especially women) to experiment with homosexuality around the age they head off to college. A lot of the women I knew who did were doing so because of pressures from hetero males trying to satisfy a fantasy. Is it possible this group of people were experimenting due to these pressures or is it possible these people were harboring these feelings all along, but waited to express them until they felt more secure in doing so (i.e. - away from their parents)? If you tell me all of these people were also very active in theater I think that is a red herring. I knew plenty of "straight" kids in high school who came out in college. I wouldn't call it a byproduct of their environment in any respect other than being away from their parents whose judgment they fear the most. What you describe is not an unheard of phenomenon.

This was in high school as you would call in America. They all still lived at home with normal families in the town. This wasn't just experimenting ,these people were actually gay and are still gay to this day. So this instance I would say that it was nurture more so than every one of them being born gay. To be straight in their social circle would be like being gay in most. I think if I were to ask any of them how they became gay they would say a large part of it was who they were hanging around with more so than a deep undeniable desire from birth of the same sex.

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To be straight in their social circle would be like being gay in most. I think if I were to ask any of them how they became gay they would say a large part of it was who they were hanging around with more so than a deep undeniable desire from birth of the same sex.

And I think if you asked them today you'd get a different answer. Why don't you touch base with them and find out who's right?

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Only a chump boos the home team!

A lot of gay people will stay in the closet too.  A cousin of mine was married to a man, and then got divorced because she was interested in women.  My (female) best friend's wife dated guys in high school to appease her parents (who sent her off to conversion therapy at one point).  She didn't stop being a lesbian, she just dated guys because it was what was what her parents expected of her.  She never gained an attraction for men.  You wouldn't exactly call her straight when she dated guys, despite not being attracted to them.  


Some people are bisexual, and some people are confused about what they like.  Those feelings can often be further confused by social pressures.  I have a gay friend who most people would have assumed was straight.  He often spoke out against homosexuality too.  Then he came out as gay, much to the shock of everyone.  Much of his family disowned him afterwards.  Turned out a lot of his feelings were repressed until he reached his late twenties.  


Discovering your sexuality is part of getting older.  You might be attracted to one, or even both.  Some people aren't sure what they're attracted to.  This isn't unusual in the slightest.  


In the end though, I don't think it matters if it's a choice, biological, environmental or what.  What they do with other consenting adults is their own business.  Parties uninvolved have no right to say what they should and shouldn't be able to do.  


I've also known some trans-gender people.  One in particular it certainly wasn't a choice for her (and yes, I'll refer to her as a her, because that's what she would want.  I'm sure some people would disregard their wishes, but I'm not that callous).  She killed herself because her father would not accept her for who she was.  She hated herself for being who she was because her father made her hate herself for it.  Eventually she couldn't live with it.  She didn't make a conscious choice that she didn't feel like a boy.  She wished that it was, because then she could have just been the boy her father wanted her to be.  


People want to talk about right and wrong.  Treating people like human beings regardless of their orientation or their gender identity is what I would call right.  Denying them the right to go to the bathroom, or to get married to someone that is the same gender they are, that's what I would call wrong.  Plain and simple.   

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

And I think if you asked them today you'd get a different answer. Why don't you touch base with them and find out who's right?

 

He didn't ask them.  He's only assuming that's what they would say.  Apparently assumptions are perfect for understanding human nature.  I mean it's not even meant to be some undeniable desire since birth.  A lot of people don't discover their sexuality until much later in life.  

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

And I think if you asked them today you'd get a different answer. Why don't you touch base with them and find out who's right?

I think if I sat them down and went through they're progression from straight teenager to gay teenager their environment would be a huge factor.


In Ancient Rome homosexuality was quite common and was socially accepted. Men could be with other men and nobody batted an eyelid. Many powerful leaders had sex with other men. It was perfectly normal to happen.


Now was this just a case of most people being born gay? Or did people became gay due to the conditions which made it perfectly normal to happen?

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All I asked was what he posted about that was relevant. I said it wasn't. You called it my opinion. I asked for you to show me what I may have missed. Predictably you couldn't.

You're missing it all because you can't see the forest for the trees. You won't see it any other way, and the whole thread is proof. I have tried to have normal dialogue and present certain things, as have others, but you will only see it one way no matter what. It's a fruitless effort to do anything else at this point.

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TravC59, aka JacksJags. @TravC59 on Twitter
;
; "This is really good, you want a bite, Honey?"

What goes on between two consenting adults is nobody's damn business except those adults.  I'd think that would be a simple concept, but i'm sure it's hard for some to grasp.

That is not at all what is being argued here.

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TravC59, aka JacksJags. @TravC59 on Twitter
;
; "This is really good, you want a bite, Honey?"

I think if I sat them down and went through they're progression from straight teenager to gay teenager their environment would be a huge factor.


In Ancient Rome homosexuality was quite common and was socially accepted. Men could be with other men and nobody batted an eyelid. Many powerful leaders had sex with other men. It was perfectly normal to happen.


Now was this just a case of most people being born gay? Or did people became gay due to the conditions which made it perfectly normal to happen?

I have seen no evidence to ever show the percentage of gay people in any era rose or declined due to environmental conditions. Are you seeing evidence of a growing number of LGBT people in light of recent advances in their social acceptability? It has been a pretty stagnant number from the data I have seen (of course this data has not been historically tracked with the same accuracy as other statistics.) Just because some societies find it more socially acceptable does not mean there are more of them. As much as I support the LGBT community the only way I will ever engage in a homosexual act would be if it were done to me by force. Somehow, that is not a credible fear for me.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

You're missing it all because you can't see the forest for the trees. You won't see it any other way, and the whole thread is proof. I have tried to have normal dialogue and present certain things, as have others, but you will only see it one way no matter what. It's a fruitless effort to do anything else at this point.

So... what part of the post in question was pertinent to the discussion of why a person is gay or transgender. If it's that obvious, you wouldn't be ducking a direct response to that simple question in two separate posts. It's pretty clear. Look at the post. Tell me what is related to the topic of why a person is LGBT. Don't tell me I "can't see the forest" if you won't even tell me what point I am missing.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

That is not at all what is being argued here.

 

I dunno...that's definitely not where this all started but that seems to be where we are now...

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<i>Behold man's final mad disgrace.</i>

<i>He chops his nose to spite his face.</i>

 

-Etrigan the Demon

 

I have seen no evidence to ever show the percentage of gay people in any era rose or declined due to environmental conditions. Are you seeing evidence of a growing number of LGBT people in light of recent advances in their social acceptability? It has been a pretty stagnant number from the data I have seen (of course this data has not been historically tracked with the same accuracy as other statistics.) Just because some societies find it more socially acceptable does not mean there are more of them. As much as I support the LGBT community the only way I will ever engage in a homosexual act would be if it were done to me by force. Somehow, that is not a credible fear for me.

So I'll say it again. Its common knowledge amongst ancient historians that in Ancient Rome there was no social prejudice against males having sexual relations with other males as long as they were free men,many famous leaders and powerful men were known to have sex with men and women as did many of the free people. It was a normal thing to happen. Now I'll ask you did a huge amount of gay men just happen to be born then or did people adapt to the culture/environment they lived in? The answer is obvious to me and most people.


What do you think? That a huge spike of gay births randomly happened in Rome around those times or that peoples developed their sexuality and sexual practices based on their culture and environment.


You don't need to write an essay just answer which one you think is true.

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So I'll say it again. Its common knowledge amongst ancient historians that in Ancient Rome there was no social prejudice against males having sexu relations with other males as long as they were free men,many famous leaders and powerful men were known to have sex with men and women as did many of the free people. It was a normal thing to happen. Now I'll ask you did a huge amount of gay men just happen to be born then or did people adapt to the culture/environment they lived in? The answer is obvious to me and most people.


What do you think? That a huge spike of gay births randomly happened in Rome around those times or that peoples developed their sexuality and sexual practices based on their culture and environment.


You don't need to write an essay just answer which one you think is true.

 

Couldn't possibly be that people just stopped hiding it because of social acceptability. Nope.  That couldn't be it at all.  We all know there weren't any gay people in America before the 1960's.

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke. 

I dunno...that's definitely not where this all started but that seems to be where we are now...

As stated before every human is allowed to express themselves whatever way they want ,it doesn't effect me so let them at it. I'm merely arguing that there is an element of nurture and nature when it comes to gay people,they arn't all just born gay.

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Couldn't possibly be that people just stopped hiding it because of social acceptability. Nope. That couldn't be it at all. We all know there weren't any gay people in America before the 1960's.

There was nothing to hide,it wasn't a taboo to be gay,it was considered quite normal. It seems your putting me down as an anti-gay person which is quite incorrect.

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There was nothing to hide,it wasn't a taboo to be gay,it was considered quite normal. It seems your putting me down as an anti-gay person which is quite incorrect.

 

Of course there was nothing to hide.  ...In Rome.  Elsewhere there was.  Some places they took big ol' rocks and threw them at you until you stopped moving if you were homosexual.  They would convert you from homosexual to corpse.  Rome was more open about it, so gay people there felt more free to be gay.  Some were probably experimenting with their sexuality.  Throughout History a lot of people hid the fact that they were gay.  Even today some people hide the fact that they're gay because they fear repercussions.  

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I was wrong about Trent Baalke.