Back in January, Chiefjag and I had what I thought was a good debate/discussion on the progress of the team and whether Bradley and/or Caldwell should be fired.

 

Within that thread, I made the following argument:

 

 

2.  I maintain there is still an argument that the current approach Caldwell took with the team is working.  No, the W-L-T record has not been good.  But the talent level overall is increasing.  He proceeded under the idea it would take longer to build the offense.  It's taken two years, and clearly it isn't fully where we want it to be, but it is beyond dispute the nucleus of an explosive and contending offense is there with Bortles, AR15, Hurns, and Thomas  Thomas has already made a Pro Bowl.  AR15 is making his first this year.  Bortles was 2nd in the league in TDs.  Hurns had 10 TDs and 1000 yards on his own.  What we haven't seen is a requisite investment of high draft picks on the defensive side of the ball.  I think with another year in the offense as described above, with better talent overall on the defense, combined this team will win more games, which is, again, the whole point.  Yes, we've only had 3 coaches since 2003 (4 if you count Mel Tucker), and ALL have been hamstrung by a pronounced lack of talent.  That has finally turned around on offense.  Give it a chance to turn it around on defense as well.  At the very least, with something close to a complete team, we will know once and for all if the coaching is good or not.  With something close to a complete team, we will have a better idea how to proceed if we decide Bradley isn't the guy.

(emphasis added)

 

http://jungle.jaguars.com/index.php?/top.../?p=676914

 

Since this post, the team has added Malik Jackson, Tayshaun Gipson, Amukumara, & Woerner in free agency, and Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, and three other defenders in stocking the defensive side of the ball.

 

My question is do you think we have made the requisite investment in the defense to give Bradley some semblance of a complete team?

 

Is this offseason the defensive equivalent of the 2014 draft for offense?  Why or why not?

 

If you have defended Bradley and Caldwell in these discussions in the past, do you now think the team has enough talent to hold Bradley responsible if the team underachieves this year?  If the team underachieves this year, do you also blame Caldwell?  Why or why not?

 

If you attacked Bradley and Caldwell in these discussions, has this offseason changed your analysis going into this season?  If the team produces a 9 win season or better this year, will you still think Bradley/Caldwell deserves to be fired?  Why or why not?

 

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Back in January, Chiefjag and I had what I thought was a good debate/discussion on the progress of the team and whether Bradley and/or Caldwell should be fired.


Within that thread, I made the following argument:


(emphasis added)

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://jungle.jaguars.com/index.php?/topic/16170-has-any-pro-gus-fans-changed-their-minds/?p=676914'>http://jungle.jaguars.com/index.php?/topic/16170-has-any-pro-gus-fans-changed-their-minds/?p=676914</a>


Since this post, the team has added Malik Jackson, Tayshaun Gipson, Amukumara, & Woerner in free agency, and Ramsey, Jack, Ngakoue, and three other defenders in stocking the defensive side of the ball.


My question is do you think we have made the requisite investment in the defense to give Bradley some semblance of a complete team?


Is this offseason the defensive equivalent of the 2014 draft for offense? Why or why not?


If you have defended Bradley and Caldwell in these discussions in the past, do you now think the team has enough talent to hold Bradley responsible if the team underachieves this year? If the team underachieves this year, do you also blame Caldwell? Why or why not?


If you attacked Bradley and Caldwell in these discussions, has this offseason changed your analysis going into this season? If the team produces a 9 win season or better this year, will you still think Bradley/Caldwell deserves to be fired? Why or why not?

Even if we do have a 9 win season, if that doesn't translate to a division title or a wild card spot, Gus should be fired. Caldwell deserves a extension.

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Ya Caldwell is a lock for sure we all know this is make or break for Bradley but if the team plays at a high level consistently an loses close games he'll be brought back we might miss a field goal or two or whatever

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Ya Caldwell is a lock for sure we all know this is make or break for Bradley but if the team plays at a high level consistently an loses close games he'll be brought back we might miss a field goal or two or whatever

 

That's pretty much what we've seen relative to Bradley's first season as HC.  There were many games last season that were "woulda shoulda" games for the team.

 

My guess is that the floor for Bradley's exit is a winning season (better than .500).  If the team falls below that, I would say that he is gone.

 

My other guess is that Caldwell is probably pretty secure in his position.  What remains to be seen is how some of his other picks pan out.  So far he has been pretty good.

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

We had enough offense to win more games last year. Now we hopefully have the defense that can insure those wins late in the 4th.

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Gus won't be fired if he pulls a 9 win season.  That's a huge swing from one year to the next just to get to that point.  Caldwell's job is not even remotely at risk at this point.  The owner has bought into the plan, and is fully invested behind it.  At the end of the day, the only way anything could possibly change with the coach or GM is if the team just completely implodes, and the only way that would happen is if you have multiple critical injuries.  At that point, I doubt Khan would fire anyone. If the team underachieves and it's not the result of injuries, then naturally Gus is going to be the guy to fall on his sword, but Caldwell's not going anywhere. 

 

With all of that being said, I expect the team to be better than some of the folks on this board.  We saw what focusing on the offense last off season did for that unit.  All of the focus this off season with a couple of exceptions has been on fixing the defense, and the expectation is that you'll see similar improvement on that side of the ball as a result.

 

This team is on the verge of being a very good team.  The methodology used to build it assures that it should be able to maintain that for a extended period of time.  Much to the chagrin of some wannabe GMs around here, it will more than likely happen with the current head coach and GM.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

My question is do you think we have made the requisite investment in the defense to give Bradley some semblance of a complete team?

 

The question is when will we give this great roster some semblance of a head coach?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Some of these people and there agendas first I heard that Chip Kelly was a better coach and look what that clown did to the eagles. Im not going to start with the other coaches that have been hired and fired since  all these GM geniuses need to take a seat.

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I want to acknowledge some poor wording on my part in the original post.  I made it seem as if Chief and I were the only two in the debate.  That thread was the result of many good arguments from both sides from any number of posters.  I am remiss for not making that clear.

 

Thus far, it seems at least a growing consensus is that this team is complete or close enough to completion such that contention is the expectation.  Unlike years past, it seems the national media is joining in the Jaguars fans' consensus to a substantial degree.  It's been a long time since that was the case amongst Jaguars fans, much less the national media. Since Bradley has remained constant, it seems to me the change in perspectives has to stem from a dramatic infusion of talent.  In my eyes that supports the argument that Bradley was not given anything close to a talented enough roster to have a reasonable expectation of success in at least his first two years.  Given the relative inexperience of the offensive nucleus drafted in 2014, the lack of offensive schematic continuity, and the overarching paucity of defensive talent, I would contend that extended to year three.

 

But like most, I contend talent is no longer a negative overall factor for this team.  I think the additional year of experience and continuity on offense with the substantial infusion of talent and experience on defense-given good health- will enable this team to thrive if Bradley is even an average coach, for two reasons.

 

First, I think having better talent on the defensive side of the ball will give the team greater margin for error.  Last year, mistakes doomed this team, even in games where the offense generated a lot of points.  The 20 yard fumble loss against Tampa, the tremendous punt return yardage surrendered in that same game, the two games lost in large part due to errant shotgun snaps recovered in point blank range, the missed FGs against the Colts, the missed extra points and the pick 6 INTs all combined to give the Jaguars yet another season of double digit losses last year.  But in the overwhelming majority of those games, the Jaguars had a reasonable chance to win going into the 4th quarter.  But the lack of defensive talent made it harder to overcome those mishaps for several reasons:  they didn't force enough game changing turnovers of their own, they weren't able to contain scoring outside of those mistakes, they were able to run out the clock on the Jaguars' offense and they put too much pressure on the Jaguars offense to keep up, leaving the offense without sufficient balance and pressing themselves into late mistakes.  But a better pass rush might have stopped the Colts from scoring the second half TD to tie the first game in Indy.  Better coverage might have stopped Winston and Rivers from picking us apart and prevented that late collapse in the first game against Houston.  Better team speed and depth might have prevented the Tampa RB from plowing through our defense like paper and allowed us to recover the late fumble against the Jets.  Two additional stops per game could have made the difference between the 5-11 mark we finished with and the possible 9-7 that would look so much better.

 

Secondly, better defensive talent will spark the competition that Bradley is always talking about that will inevitably make the team better.  If Ramsey and Jack are what we think they are and the defense is healthy, think about what that will mean on a daily basis.   Our WRs will have to work harder to get open during practice as they will face at least three starting quality CBs.  Given our top 3 guys are all 6' or better, they will have to become more proficient at getting off the jam at the LOS and run better routes to get open on the same plays to have success in practice.  Between Jack, Smith, and Gipson, RBs in the flat and TEs will have to do likewise.  Though Bortles admits to not being a good practice player, if he is to have success against the tighter coverage the new talent provides, he will have to become more accurate.  He will have to go through more of his progressions faster and more accurately, perhaps being more content to check down instead of unnecessarily forcing passes downfield.  RBs in pass protection will have to identify blitzes faster and move in position quicker to get good blocks.  To keep from giving up sacks against better, more explosive guys like Jackson and Fowler, they will have to play with better technique.  The same holds true on the other side of the ball.   In the past, because the talent on the roster was lacking, that dynamic wasn't there.  Even if you had success in practice, it meant little against the more talented opposition you would invariably face in the game.  You, as a player, and Bradley as a coach had no real way of gauging how good you were based upon your practice performances.  If this talent infusion is real, then the offense has to be better as a result, as is the case with the defense.  This will result in more wins for the good guys.

 

Needless to say, I am excited about this team's prospects! 

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Even if we do have a 9 win season, if that doesn't translate to a division title or a wild card spot, Gus should be fired. Caldwell deserves a extension.

This comment leapt out at me as I scrolled through the thread as the most stupid thing I've seen today. And I've seen some pretty stupid things today. We should judge a coach not on the performance of his team but on the performance of other teams? There speaks a man who has completely lost touch with rationality...

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There speaks a man who has completely lost touch with rationality...

Or just never had it in the first place.

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Some of these people and there agendas first I heard that Chip Kelly was a better coach and look what that clown did to the eagles. Im not going to start with the other coaches that have been hired and fired since  all these GM geniuses need to take a seat.

Kelly's offense and Bradley's defense are the same gimmicky crap that should get a coach fired.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

FLsportsgod,

 

What's gimmicky about the Jaguars' defensive scheme?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

FLsportsgod,

 

What's gimmicky about the Jaguars' defensive scheme?

A scheme that needs a roster full of pro bowlers to be succesful is a gimmick.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Flsportsgod,

 

WHo would be some of your choices to replace Bradley?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

How about just an adequate FS and pass rusher?

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

How about just an adequate FS and pass rusher?

They have those in the Atl and it doesn't work there either.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Flsportsgod,

 

WHo would be some of your choices to replace Bradley?

I heard that the best coach this team ever had is looking for work. Wouldn't that be something?

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Gus needs to prove his worth. Caldwell shouldn't go anywhere

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I think we are a 6 - 10 team still at the minimum and maybe 9 - 7 at the maximum. Personally, despite the impressive off season. I don't have confidence in Bradley to get it done as the headcoach with a rookie Defensive Coordinator this year. Look at the first four games. We could very well and up being winless going into an early bye week this year.


I think Bradley is safe if we finish 8 - 8. Anything less than that and he needs to go. I wouldn't be shocked if Caldwell pulls the plug on him if it's ugly again this year and Olson is given a chance in the interim.

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."