"During the development stage that happens in pregnancy, up until the 10th week or so, the embryo doesn't have a sex, doesn't have arms or fingers that have developed,"



So you would be okay with aborting a 25 year old amputee that identifies as neither man nor woman? :whistling:

Depends on if that no armed no legged thing crossed me... Lol

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For those who want to complain about women who have abortions.....To some people the idea of having a child is beyond terrifying because they know they are not fit to parent said child. I am one of those people. I did get pregnant and I considered abortion because I knew I was not fit to be a mother. I obviously didn't have an abortion and at the urging of her father I tried to be a mother and failed horrifically.

 

I am one of those people who would have been an abusive parent because I had serious anger issues that I couldn't control when pushed to a point. I still struggle with it though age and keeping myself away from 'triggers' has helped. The day I almost put my fist in my 6 month old baby's face was the last day I spent even a second alone with her and the people around me realized I wasn't kidding when I said I wasn't fit to be a parent. Luckily her father and his family were wonderful people and they raised her. She's 25 and has a couple of kids of her own. 

 

I say all of this to make a point. Whether we agree with abortion or not, we shouldn't judge women who have them. No, it's NOT okay for women to use it as birth control. I disagree with that totally. But we don't know the circumstances of the women in general who do have them and if any of them are like me minus the awesome support system I had, believe me when I say they are saving a child from a life of abuse the likes of which no one wants to think about. 

 

You say, well they can always place it for adoption. I went that route as well. Apparently no birth control worked for me. my body was resistant to anything and everything. I placed my second child for adoption and let me tell you, as much as I knew I didn't want that child and couldn't care for him and was doing the best thing for him, it was still one of the most difficult things I've done. I went through some serious depression after that. Not all people can and do go through with adoption. They change their minds and think they can handle it. Some end well, others do not. 

 

So no matter how much one might disagree with it, don't be so quick to judge those who do it. We all have our faults or things that make us not so nice people from time to time. For some of us it could cause serious and lasting harm to an innocent child whether it be anger issues, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, unsafe people in our lives. Whatever. Just putting out a real life experience POV for consideration.

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Time to abort this 

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Blakes Life Matters

Mitosis, not meosis. Meosis I the process by which the gametes (sperm and egg) are formed. Mitosis is the functional reproduction of a fully functioning cell of an independent organism.


In this case the basic function of hormonal contraception is to disrupt the natural cycle that results in the release of an Egg (Ovulation). In the process, that also cuts out the natural thickening and preparation of the uterine lining. So again, the target is the prevention of ovulation not the intentional destruction of an independently identified organism as in abortion.


Also, you talk about combined BC methods, women only have an option of progesterone (affects the lining) or full on combination (still affects the lining) so its not like you have women walking up to a counter and making a conscious decision to deny an egg that isn't supposed to drop into the uterus the bed it needs to be implanted.


That doesn't change the fact that human life begins at conception (scientific fact). That doesn't mean that all human life isn't worthy of protection, especially when it is at its most innocent and most vulnerable. It's a basic acknowledgement of the inefficiency of the current systems of hormonal birth control and not blaming women for something that they have no control over.

It's been a while since my biology classes, so thanks for the correction. I was thinking of mitosis strictly in a non child development way. But you're right once the cell is fertilized, the egg and sperm chromosomes begin to line up and then cell division in the form of mitosis begins. I think you are correct about the meosis definition.


Either way, I understand your point. What I think you are missing the point on, as far as I understand it from the research I did, is that most pills have two types of hormones in them. I believe they are progesterone and estrogen. Either way, as you mention, they do two distinct things, as you agree. Stop ovulation and harden/thicken the uterine wall.


But here's the key point, the pill does not stop ovulation entirely, some eggs are released no matter. That's why the second hormone is so important to the success of the pill. There are certain pills that only have one of the hormone, but, as logic would imply, it's not as successful. The point is that the development and success of the pill is in the fact that it is understood that side eggs will be released and therefore be fertilized.


Whether or not a woman understands she's making a conscious choice regarding the fact that the most popular and must effective pill results in a fertilized egg that will be flushed away, is a fact. And that fact, for a true pro life anti abortion advocate must be reconciled. In my book it's a reconciliation that leads to absurdity.


With all that said, my point is this: you, and all those that believe in the conception point of human life, are totally in the right to have that belief.


But, that's not the only belief out there when it comes to human life. And those who believe that humanity begins at some point after conception are not evil, or ruthless killers. Matter of fact, those who believe humanity begins at some point beyond conception are also right to have their beliefs.


A doctor that provides birth control pills isn't a murderer in his or her eyes.


I get your point that there's a difference between the pill and an abortion. But I find your distinction as arbitrary as my 8-10 week point where human life begins.


You are also now circling back to the value of life and how it must be protected. Pro-choice people agree. But, the distinction we have differs, and then it gets blown out of proportion and then it gets personal and then both sides dig in to their original positions.


I honestly believe there is a compromise that can be had in this situation.


Maybe we should start taking about viability as the cut off? Perhaps a compromise can be had if we remove the life aspect of it and consider the viability aspect of the zygote/embryo during pregnancy?

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And, uh, certain undiscussable groups do, in fact, oppose the pill.

Which is totally their right to do. But, and this is just my assumption, they are a small minority of the population.


Their position does not, and should not, affect national policy.


They can choose not to use such contraception and they can pray or lobby for "users" to change their ways, but they shouldn't be able to reduce access to the pill just because it goes against their morals.

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Time to abort this

Now ringo, don't you go triggering anybody...

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For those who want to complain about women who have abortions.....To some people the idea of having a child is beyond terrifying because they know they are not fit to parent said child. I am one of those people. I did get pregnant and I considered abortion because I knew I was not fit to be a mother. I obviously didn't have an abortion and at the urging of her father I tried to be a mother and failed horrifically.


I am one of those people who would have been an abusive parent because I had serious anger issues that I couldn't control when pushed to a point. I still struggle with it though age and keeping myself away from 'triggers' has helped. The day I almost put my fist in my 6 month old baby's face was the last day I spent even a second alone with her and the people around me realized I wasn't kidding when I said I wasn't fit to be a parent. Luckily her father and his family were wonderful people and they raised her. She's 25 and has a couple of kids of her own.


I say all of this to make a point. Whether we agree with abortion or not, we shouldn't judge women who have them. No, it's NOT okay for women to use it as birth control. I disagree with that totally. But we don't know the circumstances of the women in general who do have them and if any of them are like me minus the awesome support system I had, believe me when I say they are saving a child from a life of abuse the likes of which no one wants to think about.


You say, well they can always place it for adoption. I went that route as well. Apparently no birth control worked for me. my body was resistant to anything and everything. I placed my second child for adoption and let me tell you, as much as I knew I didn't want that child and couldn't care for him and was doing the best thing for him, it was still one of the most difficult things I've done. I went through some serious depression after that. Not all people can and do go through with adoption. They change their minds and think they can handle it. Some end well, others do not.


So no matter how much one might disagree with it, don't be so quick to judge those who do it. We all have our faults or things that make us not so nice people from time to time. For some of us it could cause serious and lasting harm to an innocent child whether it be anger issues, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, unsafe people in our lives. Whatever. Just putting out a real life experience POV for consideration.

Just wanted to thank you for sharing this, it takes courage to be this honest. And it takes alot mental strength to look into yourself and truly understand your weaknesses.


Parenting is the dag gum diddly-um hardest thing I've ever done. It's not something that's for everyone.


You seem like a good person, as far as I can tell from my internet vantage point...


If you don't mind me asking, about how long into the pregnancy did you make your decision?

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Just wanted to thank you for sharing this, it takes courage to be this honest. And it takes alot mental strength to look into yourself and truly understand your weaknesses.

 

Thanks. Sometimes I wonder if I overshare but then I say, screw it. I believe the experiences we have are meant to help others we come across who are in similar situations. So I share my stories hoping it will help someone. It actually took me until this year to say out loud that I would have been an abusive parent. I always knew it and would say it, but not straight up. 



Parenting is the dag gum diddly-um hardest thing I've ever done. It's not something that's for everyone.

 

It is not and I wish more people would recognize this. I have been judged harshly for my decisions but I know I made the right ones. Society, especially the South, needs to stop making women feel like their sole purpose in life is to reproduce. 



You seem like a good person, as far as I can tell from my internet vantage point...

 

Well, I suppose I am. We all have good and bad in us I'm just able to be honest about all of it, not just the good. I've lived a life that has given me the ability to have a broad view of a lot of things and none of it was easy but at times was fascinating. It made me able to empathize with a wide range of people in ways most can't. Sadly it also has made me hard in other ways, but I'm a work in progress as we all are. I have a form of PTSD from specific life events so I tend to have serious knee-jerk reactions and speak, or write, before I think things through when it comes to certain subjects, some of which have been discussed on this board. I still have my anger issues but as I said in my original post I stay away from 'triggers' if at all possible, and time and age has mellowed me some. Sadly, if triggered by the wrong thing I would definitely have a problem and it does happen from time to time. Thankfully I have a wonderful husband who is patient and if I punch a hole in the wall we know how to patch drywall. Exercise is also a wonderful outlet. 



If you don't mind me asking, about how long into the pregnancy did you make your decision?

 

I didn't know I was pregnant until after the 3 month mark but as soon as I knew I was thinking abortion. I'd say around 5 months or so he convinced me to change my mind. Also at that point it's pretty much not an option in my opinion. 

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It's been a while since my biology classes, so thanks for the correction. I was thinking of mitosis strictly in a non child development way. But you're right once the cell is fertilized, the egg and sperm chromosomes begin to line up and then cell division in the form of mitosis begins. I think you are correct about the meosis definition.


Either way, I understand your point. What I think you are missing the point on, as far as I understand it from the research I did, is that most pills have two types of hormones in them. I believe they are progesterone and estrogen. Either way, as you mention, they do two distinct things, as you agree. Stop ovulation and harden/thicken the uterine wall.


But here's the key point, the pill does not stop ovulation entirely, some eggs are released no matter. That's why the second hormone is so important to the success of the pill. There are certain pills that only have one of the hormone, but, as logic would imply, it's not as successful. The point is that the development and success of the pill is in the fact that it is understood that side eggs will be released and therefore be fertilized.


Whether or not a woman understands she's making a conscious choice regarding the fact that the most popular and must effective pill results in a fertilized egg that will be flushed away, is a fact. And that fact, for a true pro life anti abortion advocate must be reconciled. In my book it's a reconciliation that leads to absurdity.


With all that said, my point is this: you, and all those that believe in the conception point of human life, are totally in the right to have that belief.


But, that's not the only belief out there when it comes to human life. And those who believe that humanity begins at some point after conception are not evil, or ruthless killers. Matter of fact, those who believe humanity begins at some point beyond conception are also right to have their beliefs.


A doctor that provides birth control pills isn't a murderer in his or her eyes.


I get your point that there's a difference between the pill and an abortion. But I find your distinction as arbitrary as my 8-10 week point where human life begins.


You are also now circling back to the value of life and how it must be protected. Pro-choice people agree. But, the distinction we have differs, and then it gets blown out of proportion and then it gets personal and then both sides dig in to their original positions.


I honestly believe there is a compromise that can be had in this situation.


Maybe we should start taking about viability as the cut off? Perhaps a compromise can be had if we remove the life aspect of it and consider the viability aspect of the zygote/embryo during pregnancy?

In progesterone only pills, mini pills, there is no estrogen. Unfortunately, progestin is the hormone that disrupts the preparation of the uterine wall to receive an egg.


Combined bcp introduce estrogen to further block ovulation but the mini pill does that too.


In other words in the world of hormonal BC there is no option to intentionally have the ovulatory cycle mitigated and the uterus prepare to receive an egg. If there was then I would recommend it.


So bcp increases the risk of miss implantation or spontaneous miscarriage, just like general anesthesia carries with it a statistical risk that the patient will not wake up. Its an unintended unavoidable side affect of the hormonal approach.


Ultimately while I can disagree with certain parts of the viability point of view (the basis for roe) I think that there could be a compromise landing area that makes more sense than the current system.


I might not be wholly satisfied but if probably sign 8 to ten weeks blindfolded.

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I honestly believe there is a compromise that can be had in this situation.


Maybe we should start taking about viability as the cut off? Perhaps a compromise can be had if we remove the life aspect of it and consider the viability aspect of the zygote/embryo during pregnancy?

 

I do think that's reasonable, but you aren't going to get compromise from the "anywhere, anytime, anyway" crowd or from the "none at all ever" and they are the two driving forces in the argument.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

If people wanted to lower abortion rates and actually cared about these children they would be all in favor of sex education as well as easy access to contraceptives. In addition since we so truly care about the little children we should want to help support the children born to poor families or drug addicts or any myriad of other awful situation for these children to be "raised" in. None of those are stances taken by the pro-birthers and because of that it's hard to take the pro-birth stance as anything other than wanting to control women or punish them for having sex. 

Whose not in favor of sex ed and making bc accessible to people easily? I know I am, and I am generally not in favor of abortion. Of course I would rather prevent conception than have a living being killed cause 'that one was an opps'

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

There is mourning over the loss of a potential son or daughter, but it's not the same as the mourning over a person.

As someone who has actually experienced a miscarriage: You are 100% wrong and highly offensive. You've been reported.

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

As someone whose wife had multiple miscarriages, I can tell you without hesitation that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The mourning over a child lost to miscarriage is no different, especially when it happens several times to a couple. The only difference is that pain is suffered in private among those directly involved.

Agree as someone who has had a miscarriage as well. I have pre-oped many others. Its a tragedy.

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Like someone else already answered, I have. I've also participated in annual memorials for children list to miscarriage. You'd be hard pressed to get a single person to call them a fetus.


All life is precious and sacred, whether born or not. Not difficult to answer at all.


Suppose your spouse or significant other was pregnant, and during her pregnancy she was assaulted and the end result was losing the baby. I suppose you wouldn't care because in your world personhood hadn't been established, so nothing but a clump of cells was lost, right?

Sorry, but I don't recall mourning a potential son or daughter. There was no potential there. Especially after seeing the sonograms. The mourning was real, and the loss was devastating enough to where my wife gave up on having another child. We consider our daughter, the only child we were able to carry to birth a miracle.

 

No, I don't advocate for universal healthcare.  That doesn't diminish life, but I know you need to grasp for any straw that will marginalize those who don't bow down and lick the boots of the pro death movement. 

 

It's not a "potential baby" but once again, marginalizing the innocent is really the only tactic you've got in the arsenal here.

 

Since dismissing a child as a potential baby is your best approach, riddle me this.  Why are there cases where the death of an unborn child by the hands of someone else lead to charges for that death?  Why would someone be charged with murder of a potential baby that has no humanity in your world?  Even the most liberal of states like California have laws on the books protecting the life of an unborn child (not a potential child) in the event of death by violent acts.  If you look at the laws on the books in the nearly 40 states that have them, they certainly afford "personhood" to unborn babies in these instances.

 

Truth hurts, huh?

 

I know, bringing personal experience and facts into a debate is the LAST thing someone like you wants to deal with. 

Quoted for Truth. Excellent well thought out posts. I have a feeling those who are defending against this position have no experience with the subject matter other than college philosophy classes.

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Lol, there are several stories of women being denied cancer treatment, a kid dying from an abscessed tooth because his parents couldn't get him antibiotic treatment, etc... all these stories happened prior to Obama care.


But that's besides the point, if you value human life, why would you only want the poor to get medical treatment when they are deathly ill? First, it's fiscally stupid because preventative care is cheaper,


Second, only seeing a doctor during emergencies lowers a person's quality of life--- and remember all life is sacred.

Dude you have never worked in healthcare. If a kids parents ''couldn't get him antibiotics" its because they refused to go to the hospital, not cause of availability. Insurance loves to deny payment for Ca treatment, but you can still get it. That is actually wrong, but it has little to do with actual healthcare, and lots to do with insurance.

 

I am not against a 'government option' to compete with the private sector, but if its done wrong (as it will be in this country due to the overwhelming influence of special interest) it will set us back even further. There was a time when healthcare was actually affordable. Back in the 50's and 60's before Medicare and the government got involved. Even 10 years ago, you could get significant 'cash discounts' if you agree to payment plans. My Dad had his last kid (half brother from remarriage) ten years ago and paid 2k all inclusive to the hospital for the entire stay with NO insurance. I paid over 3k in 'deductibles' 2 years ago with my insurance that I already paid 5000 dollars a year for. ACA doesn't work, it just allows the fat middle man to get his hand in more. 

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Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

Mitosis, not meosis.  Meosis I the process by which the gametes (sperm and egg) are formed.  Mitosis is the functional reproduction of a fully functioning cell of an independent organism. 

 

In this case the basic function of hormonal contraception is to disrupt the natural cycle that results in the release of an Egg (Ovulation).  In the process, that also cuts out the natural thickening and preparation of the uterine lining.  So again, the target is the prevention of ovulation not the intentional destruction of an independently identified organism as in abortion. 

 

Also, you talk about combined BC methods, women only have an option of progesterone (affects the lining) or full on combination (still affects the lining) so its not like you have women walking up to a counter and making a conscious decision to deny an egg that isn't supposed to drop into the uterus the bed it needs to be implanted. 

 

That doesn't change the fact that human life begins at conception (scientific fact).  That doesn't mean that all human life isn't worthy of protection, especially when it is at its most innocent and most vulnerable.  It's a basic acknowledgement of the inefficiency of the current systems of hormonal birth control and not blaming women for something that they have no control over.

This is someone who actually understands the process and gets it. +1

---

Yes, it's improvement, but it's Blaine Gabbert 2012 level improvement. - Pirkster

http://youtu.be/ouGM3NWpjxk The Home Hypnotist!

http://youtu.be/XQRFkn0Ly3A Media on the Brain Link!
 

Peyton must store oxygen in that forehead of his. No way I'd still be alive after all that choking.

 

As someone who has actually experienced a miscarriage: You are 100% wrong and highly offensive. You've been reported.

 

I am sorry you had the experience. If you went through all the ceremonial aspects typically associated with mourning a death - a wake, visitation at a funeral home by friends and relatives, a funeral service, a graveside service and burial - then I apologize, because that's what I'm talking about. It's different for a lost fetus than it is for a human being who once breathed fresh air. I never said it was less traumatic or painful, but it is different.

 

I'm sorry I violated your right to not be offended even when posting within the rules, but I've had close family members who have experienced multiple miscarriages with whom I've had this very discussion, upon which I base my opinion.

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley


 

Ted bandy didn't feel remorse for killing people. Did his lack of feeling make it right? If I don't mourn the same way for the victim of a terror attack as I would my parent dying does that make terrorism acceptable? We don't make policy based on emotional responses.


Swear not by the moon, the inconstant... Oh nevermind.

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I am sorry you had the experience. If you went through all the ceremonial aspects typically associated with mourning a death - a wake, visitation at a funeral home by friends and relatives, a funeral service, a graveside service and burial - then I apologize, because that's what I'm talking about. It's different for a lost fetus than it is for a human being who once breathed fresh air. I never said it was less traumatic or painful, but it is different.

 

I'm sorry I violated your right to not be offended even when posting within the rules, but I've had close family members who have experienced multiple miscarriages with whom I've had this very discussion, upon which I base my opinion.

I think for some, couples who are unable to conceive and don't have the funds for other methods, the loss of potential life for those who may never get the chance again is very, very real. As real as it would be if a normal couple who has no problem having kids were to lose one. That may well be the only child they ever have so I'm pretty sure they're grieving in ways no one in their position can imagine. 

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Tell that to a friend of mine who went into early labor at 23 weeks (what most, including me would consider a miscarriage), had a c-section and the baby lived 13 days. She was a tiny thing, her head was smaller than a tennis ball and she was 11 inches long, her diaper the size of a 4x4 gauze pad and it looked huge on her. Before she made a turn for the worse she was suckling on a tiny pacifier under her own power. Her funeral was last Friday.

 

And they mourned. 

 

You're right, and my opinion and comment was based on the experiences of family members who miscarried much earlier in the fetal development.

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If something can corrupt you, you're corrupted already.
- Bob Marley