No American flags on the DNC stage but they built a nice wall:

 

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What did Bernie abandon, exactly?


All my friends and family who are Berners still respect the heck out of the man.


As he said, the struggle continues. The movement isn't about one person, it's about changing the system.


Did you listen to the speech he gave last night? What specifically do you think he sold out on?

He gave into what he was against. He is standing next to the lady who helped undermine his campaign using the DNC as her personal campaign arm. What did he sell out on? Is that a serious question? Make matters worse he demands Schultz to resign and then Hillary turns around and adds her to her campaign. It was Hillary signaling to others that she will protect those who help. You either have blinders on or are being swayed by politics.

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He gave into what he was against. He is standing next to the lady who helped undermine his campaign using the DNC as her personal campaign arm. What did he sell out on? Is that a serious question? Make matters worse he demands Schultz to resign and then Hillary turns around and adds her to her campaign. It was Hillary signaling to others that she will protect those who help. You either have blinders on or are being swayed by politics.

 

Thank you for answering him. I was too lazy to craft the response you just worked him with.

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Not a chance that even 20% of Bernie supporters vote Clinton. The 20% that will have the same jelly of a spine that Bernie has. Man I would be mad as hell if I were a Bernie supporter.

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Looking to troll? Don't bother, we supply our own.

 

 

Not a chance that even 20% of Bernie supporters vote Clinton. The 20% that will have the same jelly of a spine that Bernie has. Man I would be mad as hell if I were a Bernie supporter.

 

The worst part is, some don't even realize they should be mad right now.

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Not a chance that even 20% of Bernie supporters vote Clinton. The 20% that will have the same jelly of a spine that Bernie has. Man I would be mad as hell if I were a Bernie supporter.

 

Not even 20%? It will easily be at least four times that.

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He gave into what he was against. He is standing next to the lady who helped undermine his campaign using the DNC as her personal campaign arm. What did he sell out on? Is that a serious question? Make matters worse he demands Schultz to resign and then Hillary turns around and adds her to her campaign. It was Hillary signaling to others that she will protect those who help. You either have blinders on or are being swayed by politics.

Politics isn't bean bag. The clintons play hard ball, and that curly Shultz is a corporatist rat that deserve nobody's respect but the elite masters she serves.


With that said, did you listen to bernies's speech? The movement was pushed forward by Bernie sanders. The Clinton campaign has moved toward Bernie on tpp, on affordable college education, and on citizens United.


This is how politics works. You win and you lose, and you have to compromise to try and get as much of your agenda moved forward as possible. Bernie did just that.


Prior to Bernie, none of the issues I pointed out would probably be one the fore front as they are now.


As a Bernie bro, that isn't a sell out. I've been listening to Bernie talk since 2012--- he has been a regular on the Thom Hartman show for a very long time.


It's cool for those low info people that don't know Bernie all that well to critique him, but people that have been following Bernie and really understand his message may be disappointed that Clinton won, but there is a clear understanding that trump is an unacceptable alternative.

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Serious question. How is this free college thing going to actually work? 

 

Also, I would be curious to see what percentage of peoples student loans were spent on way above standard room and board, as well as other miscellaneous non-educational expenses. I am not implying that the cost of an education isn't ludicrously expensive, but I also doubt that the majority of people in debt lived within their means when they had the loan.

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Serious question. How is this free college thing going to actually work? 

 

Also, I would be curious to see what percentage of peoples student loans were spent on way above standard room and board, as well as other miscellaneous non-educational expenses. I am not implying that the cost of an education isn't ludicrously expensive, but I also doubt that the majority of people in debt lived within their means when they had the loan.

 

it isn't actually free

 

kinda like obama care.

 

its something like you get the first two years basically free, but then if you stick with it you have to pay for last two years.  so pretty much you get the worthless part of college for free.  its already worthless as it is, make it free for everybody and its beyond worthless.

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Serious question. How is this free college thing going to actually work? 

 

Also, I would be curious to see what percentage of peoples student loans were spent on way above standard room and board, as well as other miscellaneous non-educational expenses. I am not implying that the cost of an education isn't ludicrously expensive, but I also doubt that the majority of people in debt lived within their means when they had the loan.

I appreciate that you can recognize that there is a problem. First thing, the lived within their means thing, I'm not sure what you mean... Are you implying that the majority of students abused their loans, and didn't use their loans for school? I worked as a student advisor in a previous life, and trust me, it's not like these students are the Reagan welfare queens driving Cadillacs that the gop likes to portray to divide our country.


As for specific policy, it sounds like the public universities in each state would be getting additional funding from the dept of education. There was another thread a few months back where we discussed the issues of the cost of higher education. The sad thing is that this should be a bi partisan issue. Republicans need to be willing to solve the problem as well, otherwise, it's just gonna gridlock like what happened under Obama.

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FLOTUS Michelle Obama absolutely dominated. And Bernie supporters got what they wanted too. Great first day.

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Serious question. How is this free college thing going to actually work? 

 

Also, I would be curious to see what percentage of peoples student loans were spent on way above standard room and board, as well as other miscellaneous non-educational expenses. I am not implying that the cost of an education isn't ludicrously expensive, but I also doubt that the majority of people in debt lived within their means when they had the loan.

 

Just think about the proposal.  The basic idea of making college free is a basic admission that all the money that we spend making k-12 education free is essentially worthless unless you work in a teachers union.  The whole concept is constipated and the antithesis of innovation. 

 

The fact that the guy who proposed it is married to a woman who bankrupted a college is just icing on the cake. 

 

Also, just slapping the word COLLEGE EDUCATION on a degree in 13th century art history to serve an emotional precept is childish.  If any college education was the ticket to unlimited prosperity wouldn't those graduating from college be earning enough to pay for their loans? 

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Moreover, the basic idea of decoupling the ability of a consumer to pay for a good or service to the production and cost of said good or service leads to infinite levels of inflation.  Doubling down on even more easing credit and monetary stimulus is only going to shift the cost to tax payers or lead to rationing.  That's why college is so expensive.  That's why it takes three weeks to see a single payor doctor.  It's basic economics that democrats refuse to acknowledge. 

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it isn't actually free

 

kinda like obama care.

 

its something like you get the first two years basically free, but then if you stick with it you have to pay for last two years.  so pretty much you get the worthless part of college for free.  its already worthless as it is, make it free for everybody and its beyond worthless.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But many people--thank goodness-- disagree. I actually think you are in the vast minority. Contrary to your opinion, education is not worthless.


Did you listen to Michele Obama speak last night. I agree with her, education leads to innovation. The society that has the highest rates of educated people will lead the world. Education is an investment. You have to invest in your people.


Yet another example of the stark contrast between day 1 of the rnc and day 1 of the dnc. We're actually talking about policy. Not the poop show. This is the difference between nominating a charlatan entertainer and an actual professional politician... I know, the pro politician is dirty and despised by a lot of people, just pointing out the contrast between the two conventions and my opinion as to the reason why they are so different.

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I appreciate that you can recognize that there is a problem. First thing, the lived within their means thing, I'm not sure what you mean... Are you implying that the majority of students abused their loans, and didn't use their loans for school? I worked as a student advisor in a previous life, and trust me, it's not like these students are the Reagan welfare queens driving Cadillacs that the gop likes to portray to divide our country.


As for specific policy, it sounds like the public universities in each state would be getting additional funding from the dept of education. There was another thread a few months back where we discussed the issues of the cost of higher education. The sad thing is that this should be a bi partisan issue. Republicans need to be willing to solve the problem as well, otherwise, it's just gonna gridlock like what happened under Obama.

 

I wasn't implying that they didn't use their loans for school. I am implying that some people may have used their loans for upgraded living and entertainment in addition to paying for tuition and books.

 

I never had a student loan, so I am not sure if it is mandated solely for education expenses like a 529 or Coverdell ESA, but I assume the recipient can do whatever they want with the money.

 

If a student decided to live off Gate Parkway for $1300 a month vs living off Arlington Expressway and used the loan money to fund their entertainment, I don't feel sorry for them. However I do agree that the first 2 years of school are crap and should not be as expensive as they are.

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Politics isn't bean bag. The clintons play hard ball, and that curly Shultz is a corporatist rat that deserve nobody's respect but the elite masters she serves.


With that said, did you listen to bernies's speech? The movement was pushed forward by Bernie sanders. The Clinton campaign has moved toward Bernie on tpp, on affordable college education, and on citizens United.


This is how politics works. You win and you lose, and you have to compromise to try and get as much of your agenda moved forward as possible. Bernie did just that.


Prior to Bernie, none of the issues I pointed out would probably be one the fore front as they are now.


As a Bernie bro, that isn't a sell out. I've been listening to Bernie talk since 2012--- he has been a regular on the Thom Hartman show for a very long time.


It's cool for those low info people that don't know Bernie all that well to critique him, but people that have been following Bernie and really understand his message may be disappointed that Clinton won, but there is a clear understanding that trump is an unacceptable alternative.

Low info? That seems to be your go to anytime someone has a different opinion than you. You must have quite the view up on your horse.


Has he moved his movement forward? Absolutely. But he sold out to do it. You state that like that was his only option. It wasn't. He could have continued moving his movement forward 3rd party or not supporting Hillary. Those were options as well. Now he is attached to Hillary and part of the club. You say it is politics, but he represented an honest politicians, one of the very few and didn't do things because "that's how it works." If no one did things different nothing would change.


There is a lot of danger in the message that no matter how corrupt we get or how many things we do wrong, we got to hear Trump. The danger is you become numb to your own parties problems without demanding more. It is a great line that the democrats have fed their voters. No matter what we got to beat Trump. Yeah, I know we didn't run fair campaign and tried to sabotage Bernie, but listen, we got to beat Trump so don't worry about it. I may have compromised naational security, but we got to beat Trump so let's not lose our focus. Okay so I hired Schultz who represents everything wrong in politics today, but hey, you, over here, we got to beat Trump so keep your head forward and don't worry about all these little things that are going on.


Just shows how powerful the narrative is. You've been pounding away at it too.

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I wasn't implying that they didn't use their loans for school. I am implying that some people may have used their loans for upgraded living and entertainment in addition to paying for tuition and books.

 

I never had a student loan, so I am not sure if it is mandated solely for education expenses like a 529 or Coverdell ESA, but I assume the recipient can do whatever they want with the money.

 

If a student decided to live off Gate Parkway for $1300 a month vs living off Arlington Expressway and used the loan money to fund their entertainment, I don't feel sorry for them. However I do agree that the first 2 years of school are crap and should not be as expensive as they are.

Nobody feels sorry for the jerk stores that abuse the system.


But nobody should be campaigning to tear down the system because a small minority of humanity are unscrupulous and want to defraud the system.

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Nobody feels sorry for the jerk stores that abuse the system.


But nobody should be campaigning to tear down the system because a small minority of humanity are unscrupulous and want to defraud the system.

 

All I was implying is that maybe student debt wouldn't be such an issue if borrowers lived more within their means and were more responsible. 

 

How does one put a price on a credit hour anyway? I am assuming it has to be enough to cover the cost of faculty, maintenance, etc. If the gov't starts funding these institutions to make the first 2 years "free", where exactly do you think that money is coming from?

 

Edit: Also, what about the people already up to debt to their eyes? Is the gov't going to mandate the banks to forgive the loans? How is that going to work?

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Not even 20%? It will easily be at least four times that.

I disagree.

 

I think that 20% is probably a little low, but much closer to accurate than the 80% you suggest.  The large majority of those who were most vocal in their support of Bernie Sanders are millennials.  They bought into his message because he was anti-establishment, anti-Wall Street, anti-capitalism, anti-corporate America....  While their candidate was certainly malleable enough to abandon all of these stances by endorsing Clinton, I would doubt the young ideologues are going to be anywhere near as willing to abandon their core beliefs.  

 

A good portion of his former supporters simply won't vote.  They're not motivated enough if they don't have a candidate pandering to them. 

 

Another large bloc of his supporters will register protest votes against Hillary by voting for candidates like the Green Party, Libertarians, Socialist candidates, and yes, even Trump. 

 

I honestly think the best case scenario for Clinton in capturing the Sanders vote is around 25-30%.  They're not going to be nearly as willing to sell out as their candidate was.

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But many people--thank goodness-- disagree. I actually think you are in the vast minority. Contrary to your opinion, education is not worthless.


Did you listen to Michele Obama speak last night. I agree with her, education leads to innovation. The society that has the highest rates of educated people will lead the world. Education is an investment. You have to invest in your people.


Yet another example of the stark contrast between day 1 of the rnc and day 1 of the dnc. We're actually talking about policy. Not the poop show. This is the difference between nominating a charlatan entertainer and an actual professional politician... I know, the pro politician is dirty and despised by a lot of people, just pointing out the contrast between the two conventions and my opinion as to the reason why they are so different.

 

the first two years of college are basically worthless.  try putting that on a resume.

 

listen to Michelle Obama? no, of course not. i have more important things to do.

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the first two years of college are basically worthless.  try putting that on a resume.

 

listen to Michelle Obama? no, of course not. i have more important things to do.

 

Completely worthless. That is why you are able to knock most of them out while still in high school, but that is a totally different topic.

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