They already tunnel under the fence. A fancier fence won't change things. The cartels don't move illegals through the tunnels. The biggest issue we have with drugs entering the country is dope being brought in by ultralights. They are hard to detect on radar and can fly high enough where Border Patrol can't hear them flying overhead at night.

You don't think cartels allow these tunnels to move illegals now?


You don't think a multi-billion dollar wall would create an opportunity for cartels to maximize the value of these tunnels?

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Only a chump boos the home team!

You don't think cartels allow these tunnels to move illegals now?


You don't think a multi-billion dollar wall would create an opportunity for cartels to maximize the value of these tunnels?

 

No, they don't move illegals now except themselves and on the very rare occasion that a terrorist or something of the sort offers truckloads of money.  The cartels spend millions of dollars and sometimes even tens of millions of dollars to build one of these tunnels and make millions every successful dope load that goes through there.  You really think that they want $500 from Juan the Field Worker so if he gets caught down the road can let the authorities know about this multi-million dollar tunnel?  You might make the world's worst cartel kingpin.  At least you got that going for yourself. =)

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No, they don't move illegals now except themselves and on the very rare occasion that a terrorist or something of the sort offers truckloads of money. The cartels spend millions of dollars and sometimes even tens of millions of dollars to build one of these tunnels and make millions every successful dope load that goes through there. You really think that they want $500 from Juan the Field Worker so if he gets caught down the road can let the authorities know about this multi-million dollar tunnel? You might make the world's worst cartel kingpin. At least you got that going for yourself. =)

Ok chotch. You obviously are a narco expert. Coyotes get much more than $500 to usher illegals across the border. And cartels ARE using them as mules today. Your entire argument against cartels adopting this practice on a more mainstream level can be foiled pretty easily by a blindfold. But you are convinced a multi-billion dollar wall is gonna solve the problem. You couldn't possibly conceive any of the arguments against this 'solution' could be be valid or make sense. I wish you had billions of dollars so I could fleece you into some bull manure scheme. Maybe I could sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. You're ripe and ready to be duped.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Trump has a ten fold plan, the wall is a big piece but its not a myopic endeavor. His talked about intelligence sharing and more resources to specifically target the cartells, the flow of drugs, human trafficking etc. He's also talked about erecting the virtual wall with e verify, entry exit tracking for visa overstays, and mandatory minimum sentences for aggravated felons that defy deportation.


The argument that he's advocating the wall as a stand alone position is just as false as the idea that a physical barrier won't be an asset in border security.


We have been talking about this for thirty years and may be looking at tens of millions of people. The idea that you should have an open border that someone can just walk across is a spit in the eye to the 3/4 of a million individuals who have been victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens since this president took office.

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Ok chotch. You obviously are a narco expert. Coyotes get much more than $500 to usher illegals across the border. And cartels ARE using them as mules today. Your entire argument against cartels adopting this practice on a more mainstream level can be foiled pretty easily by a blindfold. But you are convinced a multi-billion dollar wall is gonna solve the problem. You couldn't possibly conceive any of the arguments against this 'solution' could be be valid or make sense. I wish you had billions of dollars so I could fleece you into some bull manure scheme. Maybe I could sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. You're ripe and ready to be duped.

 

No, coyotes don't.  The average is $500 - $1,500 to be smuggled across the border.  The guide, or coyote, usually makes $200 - $500 depending on the job and their experience level.  The guide will normally bring 3+ with him.  The rest of the money goes back to the cartel. 

 

Cartels are using what as mules?  

 

It's really very simple man.  You don't risk tens of millions of dollars and years of preparation time building a tunnel to bring a few field workers across.  You really think that out of thousands of people that they could get across through the tunnels, that one wouldn't spill the beans?  The majority of groups that come across spill the beans on who their guides are when they are caught.

 

I don't think you even read what I type sometimes, because no matter how many times I state my stance on a topic, you insert your own narrative and claim it's my stance.  For the last time, I don't believe a wall will solve all of our immigration problems.

 

Me: "The sky is blue."

Kotite: "If you honestly believe the sky is green then you're dumb."

Me: "I didn't say that.  I said the sky is blue."

Kotite: "No matter how many times you say the sky is green, the fact remains that it's blue."

Me:  "I.. I just..."

Kotite: "It's BLUE!!!"

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Had you actually read the link I posted you would know the cost and time it takes to create new tunnels is not what you claim it is. You are arguing in circles and sound ridiculous. Cartels are using illegals to mule drugs across the border today, but you have it in your head they won't risk a cross over in interests. Even though they are already doing it (and raping plenty of desperate young women in the process). A wall is not a solution that will prevent illegals from coming into the country. Period. And Mexico's not [BLEEP] paying for it either. It is myopic to make this multi-billion dollar endeavor the keystone to a campaign. There is such better use for that money than to squander it on a very expensive symbol of our nation's dislike for illegal immigration. It would be a monument to our stupidity.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Had you actually read the link I posted you would know the cost and time it takes to create new tunnels is not what you claim it is. You are arguing in circles and sound ridiculous. Cartels are using illegals to mule drugs across the border today, but you have it in your head they won't risk a cross over in interests. Even though they are already doing it (and raping plenty of desperate young women in the process). A wall is not a solution that will prevent illegals from coming into the country. Period. And Mexico's not [BAD WORD REMOVED] paying for it either. It is myopic to make this multi-billion dollar endeavor the keystone to a campaign. There is such better use for that money than to squander it on a very expensive symbol of our nation's dislike for illegal immigration. It would be a monument to our stupidity.

 

Here you go with the sky being blue again.  

 

Yes, cartels use drug mules regularly.  They body carry through the ports of entry.  They hide drugs in hidden compartments of vehicles going through the ports of entry.  They get poor people who can't afford the cost to cross to backpack drugs across in the deserts.  However, they don't and have no need to use drug mules in narco tunnels.  The cartel does it themselves.  

 

As far as your tldr 31 slide powerpoint article you posted, give me the cliff notes.  I'm not clicking through 31 pages of facebook clickbait.  

 

I guess there is no arguing with you if you believe these tunnels are quick, easy, and cheap to make.  Successful tunnels are the cartel's highest dollar assets.  They involve bringing on architects and engineers.  They involve buying a building in Mexico.  They involve buying a building in the United States.  They sometimes involve buying a puppet business to mask the trafficking on both sides of the border.  They involve the materials for exhaust, lighting, tracks, support struts, concrete, etc.  They involve the labor they pay.  Digging 20-50 feet deep in sand and extending it under two cities worth of infrastructure like water, sewage, electrical, etc and extending it 100-500 feet into the United States undetected isn't easy.  They spend millions on these things with the expectation that they will recoup the money on the 1st or 2nd load that gets away.  They give 0 4-letter words about getting an illegal alien across.  Bringing illegals across is living wage money for the grunts of the organization.  It's an aside.  

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not to mention the simple fact that you can build a wall and crackdown on cartels at the same time! 

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Wasn't all the wall stuff by Trump basically just a metaphor for clamping down on border security?


Or is there genuinely a need for a wall of China style structure on the border?

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Wasn't all the wall stuff by Trump basically just a metaphor for clamping down on border security?


Or is there genuinely a need for a wall of China style structure on the border?

 

Hard to say exactly what Trump has in mind as he hasn't laid out any details on a wall.  It's a little excessive, but it would certainly help.  The real meat and potatoes in controlling immigration is beefing up manpower, funding, and allowing law enforcement to do their jobs.

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Here's a radical idea.  Let's station our military along the US border.  For what it'd cost to build a wall, you could build several outposts and have them patrol with drones and small units every day.  If there's any data that shows why that wouldn't work, I'd love to see it.  I think our border needs to be secured, but I am not convinced a wall is the way to do it.  

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Here you go with the sky being blue again.


Yes, cartels use drug mules regularly. They body carry through the ports of entry. They hide drugs in hidden compartments of vehicles going through the ports of entry. They get poor people who can't afford the cost to cross to backpack drugs across in the deserts. However, they don't and have no need to use drug mules in narco tunnels. The cartel does it themselves.


As far as your tldr 31 slide powerpoint article you posted, give me the cliff notes. I'm not clicking through 31 pages of facebook clickbait.


I guess there is no arguing with you if you believe these tunnels are quick, easy, and cheap to make. Successful tunnels are the cartel's highest dollar assets. They involve bringing on architects and engineers. They involve buying a building in Mexico. They involve buying a building in the United States. They sometimes involve buying a puppet business to mask the trafficking on both sides of the border. They involve the materials for exhaust, lighting, tracks, support struts, concrete, etc. They involve the labor they pay. Digging 20-50 feet deep in sand and extending it under two cities worth of infrastructure like water, sewage, electrical, etc and extending it 100-500 feet into the United States undetected isn't easy. They spend millions on these things with the expectation that they will recoup the money on the 1st or 2nd load that gets away. They give 0 4-letter words about getting an illegal alien across. Bringing illegals across is living wage money for the grunts of the organization. It's an aside.

Guess they have to make that "view on one page" button in 72 point font for you. It does mention chasing every potential tunnel is too expensive and that the makeup of the soil near the border is perfect for making tunnels. Nice to know you can continue your argument without reading the evidence which points out a wall is moronic. You don't want to even consider evidence which may make your argument invalid. You just want to stay on your same trajectory. That's cognitive dissonance. A wall that can be foiled by a tunnel is ineffective. That's common sense which is lost on you. Cartels control what comes across that border today. Drugs or people. Tunnel or not.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

Here's a radical idea. Let's station our military along the US border. For what it'd cost to build a wall, you could build several outposts and have them patrol with drones and small units every day. If there's any data that shows why that wouldn't work, I'd love to see it. I think our border needs to be secured, but I am not convinced a wall is the way to do it.

Its currently against the law to do that.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

If you're referring to the Posse Comitatus Act, I think that is being misinterpreted.  You can't use the military to enforce US Federal Law on it's own citizens.  This came about when the Army of the north was enforcing policy on the states in the south.  They passed Posse Comitatus to restrict limit usage of the Armed Forces on it's own citizens.  If the military were expressly dealing with foreign citizens, it would fall perfectly within their jurisdiction.  Think of it this way, if there was a suspicious jet crossing the border, would you expect border control to have it's own fighter jets that scrambled to see if it was on the up and up?  Any foreign entity that is crossing into the border illegally could be considered an invading force.  It falls perfectly within the parameters of the US Army to deal with such an issue.

 

Even if we assume everything I have said is incorrect, the Act only refers to the Army and Air Force.  Even if the Navy abides by it as well, the Army and Air National Guard and Coast Guard are free to patrol the border.  There are plenty of troops that could be utilized to help patrol the border.

 

The only issue with this, that I can see, is US citizens crossing the border and having to deal with the military.  This could be resolved by integrating the current Border Patrol and local law enforcement as the units that deal with US citizens.  I do agree that the military would not be able to ask for papers once people have come into the country (this is where integration comes in).  That could all be done without the consent of congress.

 

That said, it also provides exceptions to the Act if congress passes a law.  I still think it would be more efficient than building a wall.

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So are the Republicans for Eminent Domain now?

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Here's a radical idea.  Let's station our military along the US border.  For what it'd cost to build a wall, you could build several outposts and have them patrol with drones and small units every day.  If there's any data that shows why that wouldn't work, I'd love to see it.  I think our border needs to be secured, but I am not convinced a wall is the way to do it.  

 

how much do you think a wall is going to cost

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If you're referring to the Posse Comitatus Act, I think that is being misinterpreted.  You can't use the military to enforce US Federal Law on it's own citizens.  This came about when the Army of the north was enforcing policy on the states in the south.  They passed Posse Comitatus to restrict limit usage of the Armed Forces on it's own citizens.  If the military were expressly dealing with foreign citizens, it would fall perfectly within their jurisdiction.  Think of it this way, if there was a suspicious jet crossing the border, would you expect border control to have it's own fighter jets that scrambled to see if it was on the up and up?  Any foreign entity that is crossing into the border illegally could be considered an invading force.  It falls perfectly within the parameters of the US Army to deal with such an issue.

 

Even if we assume everything I have said is incorrect, the Act only refers to the Army and Air Force.  Even if the Navy abides by it as well, the Army and Air National Guard and Coast Guard are free to patrol the border.  There are plenty of troops that could be utilized to help patrol the border.

 

The only issue with this, that I can see, is US citizens crossing the border and having to deal with the military.  This could be resolved by integrating the current Border Patrol and local law enforcement as the units that deal with US citizens.  I do agree that the military would not be able to ask for papers once people have come into the country (this is where integration comes in).  That could all be done without the consent of congress.

 

That said, it also provides exceptions to the Act if congress passes a law.  I still think it would be more efficient than building a wall.

PCA is only part of it, but is still the central issue. Border security is a law enforcement matter overseen by DHS and none of those entities are considered LEOs in that regard. Yes, it's been done before, but now that DHS and Customs considers any spot within 100 miles of an entry point to be their jurisdiction I'm not comfortable with the idea at all. Giving the military or National Guard detention powers in San Diego or Ft Lauderdale? No thanks.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

PCA is only part of it, but is still the central issue. Border security is a law enforcement matter overseen by DHS and none of those entities are considered LEOs in that regard. Yes, it's been done before, but now that DHS and Customs considers any spot within 100 miles of an entry point to be their jurisdiction I'm not comfortable with the idea at all. Giving the military or National Guard detention powers in San Diego or Ft Lauderdale? No thanks.

 

They couldn't detain citizens.  Law enforcement would have to do that.  You could even make exceptions in major cities or have DHS exclusivity at major roadways and check points.  Regular citizens shouldn't be coming through on foot or through tunnels.  Let the military handle that.  It would be significantly more effective than a wall.  Probably cheaper, too.

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Here's a radical idea.  Let's station our military along the US border.  For what it'd cost to build a wall, you could build several outposts and have them patrol with drones and small units every day.  If there's any data that shows why that wouldn't work, I'd love to see it.  I think our border needs to be secured, but I am not convinced a wall is the way to do it.  

 

 

They couldn't detain citizens.  Law enforcement would have to do that.  You could even make exceptions in major cities or have DHS exclusivity at major roadways and check points.  Regular citizens shouldn't be coming through on foot or through tunnels.  Let the military handle that.  It would be significantly more effective than a wall.  Probably cheaper, too.

 

It's been done recently with the National Guard.  It doesn't have any impact.  They stop crossing for a few weeks or months because they think they are going to get shot when they cross, but then they realize it's no different than before and resume normal activities.  What can the military do that the Border Patrol can't?  The Border Patrol is specifically trained for this and the military has no training in tracking or immigration law.  They have no arrest authority.  Often, our military and many foreign militaries receive training from the U.S. Border Patrol.  You may not realize this, but the USBP is one of the premier entry detection and tracking law enforcement agencies in the world.  Just give Border Patrol the money and resources that you would have spent deploying a unit.

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So are the Republicans for Eminent Domain now?

 

Building a wall where there is already a fence has nothing to do with eminent domain.

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