http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...n-thursday

 

If they could get Butler for the 32 pick they got from the Pats would be a great deal for NO.  Butler one of the best corners in the game.  Would really help that NO D

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<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000793006/article/malcolm-butler-to-visit-new-orleans-saints-on-thursday'>http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000793006/article/malcolm-butler-to-visit-new-orleans-saints-on-thursday</a>


If they could get Butler for the 32 pick they got from the Pats would be a great deal for NO. Butler one of the best corners in the game. Would really help that NO D

Can a team trade a pick back to a team they just got it from in a separate deal?

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I like Pullard more as a 4-3 OLB.

 

 

What about him do you think isn't ideal for a 3-4 ILB?

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'02

"I think the Jaguars want to legitimately sign Dontari Poe." -- @AlfieBCC



No [BAD WORD REMOVED] Alfie

Yo, tell Alfie "AH" said!... Link?

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You Gotta Be Able To Run Da' Rock~

Patriots signed Rex Burkhead. 

 

<a class="" href='https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson'>Josina Anderson‏<span style="font-size:.9em;"><span style="color:rgb(29,161,242);">Account verificato</span> </span>@JosinaAnderson </a> <a class="" href='https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/841752776669581312'>11 h11 ore fa</a>
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<p class="" style="font-size:26px;">I'm told DT Dontari Poe is scheduled to travel tonight for a visit the <a class="" href='https://twitter.com/hashtag/Dolphins?src=hash'>#Dolphins</a>, at this time. He has not left Georgia yet.

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...n-thursday

 

If they could get Butler for the 32 pick they got from the Pats would be a great deal for NO.  Butler one of the best corners in the game.  Would really help that NO D

 

 

Really? I've always thought of Butler as just "a guy". He was just in the right place at the right time in the biggest game of his career and he's in the perfect system to maximize what he has. I believe he's be a disaster in New Orleans.

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What about him do you think isn't ideal for a 3-4 ILB?

He's too small.

 

6-0 235 per Jaguars.com.

 

The size of the LBs has been one of my biggest beefs against the 3-4 over the years.  3-4 ILBs traditionally have needed to be big/strong enough to take on guards, stack and shed to get to the RB.  They traditionally need to be around 245-250 lbs to effectively fill that role, only after having a big, powerful DL in front of them to occupy blockers, especially a NT.

 

The only reason I have begun to kick around the idea of a 3-4 here is when the possibility of signing a true 3-4 NT arose when Poe made his visit, I started thinking about ways to get the most talented players on the field at the same time.  I came to the idea of a 3-4 alignment with a DL of Campbell, Poe and Jackson, with Fowler and Ngakoue at OLBs, and Jack and Telvin Smith at ILBs.  When the Patriots first started winning Super Bowls in the last decade, they used converted college DLs in WIllie McGinest (270), Tedy Bruschi ( 247) , and Mike Vrabel (261) to stock their LBs, in addition to Ted Johnson (253).  Looking at the recent Texans rosters shows starting LBs Clowney at 266, Brian Cushing at 243, McKinney at 246, and Mercilus (261), all bigger than Pullard (235) and Telvin Smith (220).  Only the Steelers of relatively recent vintage have used numerous starting LBs under 245 full time and managed to run anything close to an effective 3-4.  In fact I have often remarked the Steelrs represent the first speed based 3-4 defense to win a SB.  But generally speaking, 3-4 LBs tend to be bigger. 

 

While Jack and especially Smith are too small to fit the traditional 3-4 paradigm, this personnel package would serve as essentially a nickel package with an emphasis on stopping the pass.  So in other words, in down and distance situations where the opposing offense lines up in a conventional personnel grouping but in a likely passing situation.  This allows for pass rush (Campbell Jackson Fowler and Ngakoue) and underneath coverage (Jack and Smith).  While there would be some sacrifice of stoutness against the run, the idea of providing quality underneath coverage in a traditional 3-4 look appealed to me, especially within the context of being able to switch up within a drive. 

 

Were we talking about a full time switch, more stoutness against the run would be necessary, as would bigger LBs to hold up against the run.  Over the course of a season, Smith and Pullard would not hold up as 3-4 ILBs.  I'm not knocking Pullard at all.  He is actually a favorite of mine.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

personally I think a 3-4 defense is better for the NFL, offers a lot more versatility and makes it harder for the defense to know what's coming... but I dont see us switching with the same D coordinator

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Could be, you'd think if that was the case that his agent would get the hint by now

With plenty of teams having cap this year, even after first wave of free agency, there is no rush.  Get enough teams interested in him, and the thought the price should go up.

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He's too small.

 

6-0 235 per Jaguars.com.

 

The size of the LBs has been one of my biggest beefs against the 3-4 over the years.  3-4 ILBs traditionally have needed to be big/strong enough to take on guards, stack and shed to get to the RB.  They traditionally need to be around 245-250 lbs to effectively fill that role, only after having a big, powerful DL in front of them to occupy blockers, especially a NT.

 

The only reason I have begun to kick around the idea of a 3-4 here is when the possibility of signing a true 3-4 NT arose when Poe made his visit, I started thinking about ways to get the most talented players on the field at the same time.  I came to the idea of a 3-4 alignment with a DL of Campbell, Poe and Jackson, with Fowler and Ngakoue at OLBs, and Jack and Telvin Smith at ILBs.  When the Patriots first started winning Super Bowls in the last decade, they used converted college DLs in WIllie McGinest (270), Tedy Bruschi ( 247) , and Mike Vrabel (261) to stock their LBs, in addition to Ted Johnson (253).  Looking at the recent Texans rosters shows starting LBs Clowney at 266, Brian Cushing at 243, McKinney at 246, and Mercilus (261), all bigger than Pullard (235) and Telvin Smith (220).  Only the Steelers of relatively recent vintage have used numerous starting LBs under 245 full time and managed to run anything close to an effective 3-4.  In fact I have often remarked the Steelrs represent the first speed based 3-4 defense to win a SB.  But generally speaking, 3-4 LBs tend to be bigger. 

 

While Jack and especially Smith are too small to fit the traditional 3-4 paradigm, this personnel package would serve as essentially a nickel package with an emphasis on stopping the pass.  So in other words, in down and distance situations where the opposing offense lines up in a conventional personnel grouping but in a likely passing situation.  This allows for pass rush (Campbell Jackson Fowler and Ngakoue) and underneath coverage (Jack and Smith).  While there would be some sacrifice of stoutness against the run, the idea of providing quality underneath coverage in a traditional 3-4 look appealed to me, especially within the context of being able to switch up within a drive. 

 

Were we talking about a full time switch, more stoutness against the run would be necessary, as would bigger LBs to hold up against the run.  Over the course of a season, Smith and Pullard would not hold up as 3-4 ILBs.  I'm not knocking Pullard at all.  He is actually a favorite of mine.

 

Honestly, I'd be leery of going 3-4 right now, especially with our personnel. Let's remember what Tom Coughlin's goal was when he first joined the Jaguars: dethrone the Steelers and win the division. That's the key to getting to the playoffs.

 

Right now, Tennessee is built on a power run game. Houston is and will be a run-based offense (especially with their QB question marks). Indy might be the odd team out here, but I think they've thrown the ball out of necessity. Seeing a lot of mocks nowadays with them taking a RB in the 1st.

 

We cannot go "light" in this division if we hope to win it.

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Really? I've always thought of Butler as just "a guy". He was just in the right place at the right time in the biggest game of his career and he's in the perfect system to maximize what he has. I believe he's be a disaster in New Orleans.

and what system is that

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While I really like Pullard as a 4-3 LB, I believe he could function well as a 3-4 ILB as well. At the Combine, he measured 6' 1/4" 240 lbs. There are several successful 3-4 ILB's in the NFL with very similar measurements.

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and what system is that

 

 

The Bill Belichek system.

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The Bill Belichek system.

And what is he doing in that system that makes it so he cant succeed outside of it

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Bullseye, I like your lineup for the 3-4, I think we certainly have the personnel, especially if Poe signs on.


My one beef with your idea is playing Telvin Smith at ILB. I don't think he's near big enough to be taking on a lineman every play. I don't think Fowler is particularly athletic enough to play OLB either. Those 2 spots probably mean you likely won't see a consistent 3-4 lineup out there from week to week, but I would fully expect (and hope really) that we would have a 3-4 package ready for certain game situations. We have the personnel to confuse the offense a bit with different alignments now. It's exciting.

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And what is he doing in that system that makes it so he cant succeed outside of it

He's doing what Bill Belichek tells him to do instead of Sean Payton. A quick comparison of recent Belichek and Payton defenses would seem to indicate Malcom Butler's chances of continued success are higher in New England, unless you think the kids a flat out baller, which is ok too because he is pretty good.

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He's doing what Bill Belichek tells him to do instead of Sean Payton. A quick comparison of recent Belichek and Payton defenses would seem to indicate Malcom Butler's chances of continued success are higher in New England, unless you think the kids a flat out baller, which is ok too because he is pretty good.

Yeah I just dont think hes a product of any system. Belicheck knows defense but the "system" influence isnt as big on that side of the ball imo, a lot of those guys are just straight up talented.

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Yeah I just dont think hes a product of any system. Belicheck knows defense but the "system" influence isnt as big on that side of the ball imo, a lot of those guys are just straight up talented.

 

I look at a player, especially like Butler, as the epitome being a product of the "system" The "Patriot Way", so to speak.  

 

Over the years, New England has continued to develop, plug and play guys who, with all due respect, before their time in New England, were perhaps just average players.  I do believe that these types of players can have success elsewhere and especially on the defensive side of the ball; where those players can take that development with them to help further their careers.  

 

Of Course there are the Wes Welkers of the world, whereas in his case, he was ok in Miami and great in N.E., then just slightly above average in Denver.  He was a product of the system.  And then you have the Chris Longs, and Randy Mosses, players who join N.E., already being pretty talented and just allowed to excel even more.  Then you got the Revis', who have talent, go to N.E. but never really pan out.

 

Bottom Line, N.E. has developed Malcolm Butler to be a defensive back with a 1st or 2nd round draft prospect type skillset. He is one of the best in the league right now.

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You Gotta Be Able To Run Da' Rock~

The Bill Belichek system.

 

 

I don't know, but it seems like players always do better there, then they do when they leave. 

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I don't know, but it seems like players always do better there, then they do when they leave. 

It's a combination of things that make that impression, IMO. 

 

The entire roster benefits in different ways from playing on probably the most effectively prepared and schemed team of the past decade or so, but there are different degrees of it. 

 

• There are good players that leave that system and don't look "great" again because the pats brass simply knew more about their injuries and conditioning issues than the next team that picked them up.
  
• Sometimes father time has caught them.  
  
• There are players that simply move to rosters with much less talent and don't benefit accordingly.
  
• There are players that get a big paycheck and phone it in. 
  
• There are guys who had a specific (suited to their strength)  role with the pats and are asked to do too much (or something outside their wheelhouse) with the next team. 
  

 

I think that being on a team with an elite QB and a chess master on the sideline is always going to help players look better, but it's a sliding scale and should be analyzed individually.  

You can't just say - "This player is only good because of the system" without actually making some attempt to assess how much he is or isn't better because of that system. 

 

Anyway - that's how I try to view players coming out of the pats org. 

 

For instance - I still trust my pre-draft assessment of Garoppolo.  I wouldn't trade a first but I'd consider a second rounder because that's where I had him as an option for the Jaguars to draft when he came out. 

Did he look better with Belichick scheming for him than he would with most other teams?  Absolutely.

But I don't think he's going to pull on Osweiler on the next team that acquires him either. I think he'll be good and could potentially turn out to be a "franchise" QB.

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