Win a few games? What does that matter? Kap clearly has no upside of being a franchise level guy. Blake showed tons of flashes last year of being exactly that. There's no way in the world I'd take Kap over Bortles. Kap's upside is being a QB of a terrible team waiting for a new QB. Bortles most definitely still has the potential to be a franchise level QB that you can go places with if his mechanics are better+decent coaching staff that he hasn't had at the NFL level yet.


Disagree, especially after the last couple weeks where Bortles mechanics were much improved. Last year Tannehill was putrid and a lot of the stuff Jaguars are saying about Bortles is what Dolphins were saying about Tannehill.


Bortles worked all last offseason with teammates. He put in work. Just wasn't the right spot to put the work in. Should have worked with people on his mechanics. It also isn't just on Bortles, it's on Olsen and co. allowing them to deteroitate like they did all through OTA's/TC/Preseason and not try and fix them. So, the coaching staff, like I said before.

Because that's exactly the situation the 49ers are in. Kap isn't the guy so A) You don't have to keep him B) Good enough to win a few games while you wait to pick a rookie or have while he sits.


Nah he really wasn't putrid. Just had no OLine/running game.


Blake's a grown man. He knows what his mechanics should be but he didn't put in the work to get them there. To come into a critical season throwing the football that bad shows a lack of professionalism on his part.


We might want to continue this in the Bortles thread.

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Because that's exactly the situation the 49ers are in. Kap isn't the guy so A) You don't have to keep him B) Good enough to win a few games while you wait to pick a rookie or have while he sits.


Nah he really wasn't putrid. Just had no OLine/running game.


Blake's a grown man. He knows what his mechanics should be but he didn't put in the work to get them there. To come into a critical season throwing the football that bad shows a lack of professionalism on his part.


We might want to continue this in the Bortles thread.

So you'd rather go to a team that has a high pick in a draft that most scouts believe is VERY poor for Qb's than go to a team where a QB had an impressive 2nd  season (just last year) while likely being brought down in some ways due to one of the worst coaches in the history of the NFL? Someone who still has potential to be a franchise guy? I seriously don't get that argument at all. In Jacksonville, you have a chance with a guy that COULD be a franchise QB. In SF, you have a putrid QB situation and are going into a draft with not many high quality candidates to pick.

 

Dude, you pretty much just explained Bortles situation. Parnell up until wk 13 was a joke, we had 6 different LG's, and Beachum/Cann had ups and downs as one was coming off major knee surgery at 300+ pounds. Our running game was bottom 6-7 in the NFL. The last two weeks bumped us up quite a bit, and guess what? Bortles had his best two games of the season.

 

That's not how mechanics work...at all. When you throw a certain way your whole life, you can't just teach yourself how to throw and keep it consistent. You need coaching and to constantly work on it. That's what he did prior to 2015, and he had a very solid year. Last year, he worked on it, but not enough and with his results in 2015 he likely thought they were fixed. Unfortunately, our coaching staff in place obviously have jack [BAD WORD REMOVED] when it comes to knowledge of teaching mechanics as they didn't both to improve them. Blake had to bring in his own guy from Cali DURING the season to work on it. If that doesn't say something IDK what to say. It has nothing with a lack of "professionalism". He's a young guy that fixed his problems with mechanics in year two and thought he didn't need to focus on them as much prior to year 3. Was the wrong decision and he paid for it.

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So you'd rather go to a team that has a high pick in a draft that most scouts believe is VERY poor for Qb's than go to a team where a QB had an impressive 2nd season (just last year) while likely being brought down in some ways due to one of the worst coaches in the history of the NFL? Someone who still has potential to be a franchise guy? I seriously don't get that argument at all. In Jacksonville, you have a chance with a guy that COULD be a franchise QB. In SF, you have a putrid QB situation and are going into a draft with not many high quality candidates to pick.


Dude, you pretty much just explained Bortles situation. Parnell up until wk 13 was a joke, we had 6 different LG's, and Beachum/Cann had ups and downs as one was coming off major knee surgery at 300+ pounds. Our running game was bottom 6-7 in the NFL. The last two weeks bumped us up quite a bit, and guess what? Bortles had his best two games of the season.


That's not how mechanics work...at all. When you throw a certain way your whole life, you can't just teach yourself how to throw and keep it consistent. You need coaching and to constantly work on it. That's what he did prior to 2015, and he had a very solid year. Last year, he worked on it, but not enough and with his results in 2015 he likely thought they were fixed. Unfortunately, our coaching staff in place obviously have jack [BAD WORD REMOVED] when it comes to knowledge of teaching mechanics as they didn't both to improve them. Blake had to bring in his own guy from Cali DURING the season to work on it. If that doesn't say something IDK what to say. It has nothing with a lack of "professionalism". He's a young guy that fixed his problems with mechanics in year two and thought he didn't need to focus on them as much prior to year 3. Was the wrong decision and he paid for it.

Yeah if I was a potential HC coming in I'd rather pick my own QB rather than being forced to win with a guy I didn't want. Remember the clock only starts ticking once you get the QB. Don't have to pick him in this draft. In Jacksonville you are going to have to win in two seasons with a guy who not many around the league think is any good and has many flaws.


Yep exactly. They are comparable seasons except Tannehill had a worse OLine, worse WRs and a far worse defense.


Oh come off it. Bortles admits himself that he isn't a natural thrower of the ball. Its pretty obvious he didn't do enough work on it during the offseason. That's on him. That's professionalism. You think Tom House told him his mechanics looked fine like that? Of course not, but by the time the season starts its too late to fix that. He didn't fix his problems with mechanics in year 2, they were better than year 1 but still needed a ton of work. At least now he should has seen what happens if he doesn't constantly work on his craft as a QB. I fully expect him to come back next season with much improved mechanics and footwork.

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Interesting tidbit I was unaware of...

 

As a baseball player Blake threw and batted left handed.  Golfs left handed as well.

 

Whatever offseason training he's doing, hopefully it's with someone who will insist on repetition of good mechanics.  Otherwise, he's only further practicing/reinforcing bad habits.

 

I'd say that's probably even more important since it appears he's going against his eye-dominance in throwing right-handed.

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"You do your own thing in your own time. You should be proud."

Yeah if I was a potential HC coming in I'd rather pick my own QB rather than being forced to win with a guy I didn't want. Remember the clock only starts ticking once you get the QB. Don't have to pick him in this draft. In Jacksonville you are going to have to win in two seasons with a guy who not many around the league think is any good and has many flaws.


Yep exactly. They are comparable seasons except Tannehill had a worse OLine, worse WRs and a far worse defense.


Oh come off it. Bortles admits himself that he isn't a natural thrower of the ball. Its pretty obvious he didn't do enough work on it during the offseason. That's on him. That's professionalism. You think Tom House told him his mechanics looked fine like that? Of course not, but by the time the season starts its too late to fix that. He didn't fix his problems with mechanics in year 2, they were better than year 1 but still needed a ton of work. At least now he should has seen what happens if he doesn't constantly work on his craft as a QB. I fully expect him to come back next season with much improved mechanics and footwork.

How will a HC be "forced" with Bortles? Did the GM not come out and said no one is safe on this team? You really think Caldwell is going to make a HC come in here and use a QB that may not be the answer and cause him to lose his job? No, just no. Also, if you seriously think the clock will only start for SF once they get a QB you're wrong. He'll get 3 years, more if after those 3 years he is worth keeping around. Not many teams give a HC as much time as we gave Bradley. There's a reason there was so many people talking highly of Khan and his patience, and every article you read about the Jaguars HC situation is how it's ideal because the owner is more patient than most in the NFL.

 

If the HC and this team suck for the next two years, why the hell would we want to keep them anyway? Like Seriously?

 

You go ahead and think whatever you want. You are seriously wrong on Tannehill. He was replacement level bad just like Bortles was much of this season. They sought out an offensive mind that they thought could "fix" him, they did just that, and now they are in the playoffs. That exact sitaution is very possible here.

 

Being a natural thrower of the football has nothing to do with it. He's never going to be a naturual thrower of the football. He wasn't last year when he threw for over 4000 yards and 35 td's. You don't need to be natural to do well. You think Rivers has a normal throwing motion? His mechanics were fine all of 2015, he worked with House early after the offseason last year. So yeah, I'd imagine his mechanics looked just fine. Then, while working with the Jaguars receivers and away from House, they began deteriorating and THIS coaching staff allowed it to happen. He can't fix it himself, any half way decent offensive coaches wouldn't allow that. They didn't need a ton of work at all last year. Last year his problem was decision making and trying to make things out of nothing, which are things most young QB's do. You don't need perfect mechanics to succeed in the NFL. 

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I'm done going back and forth. Everything I have read and heard is Blake is a VERY hard worker and "a student of the game", something a lot of people like to use when talking about guys. Prisco was on Jaguars Monday a month or two ago talking to Boselli about his poor mechanics and wonder what happened, and even Prisco who obviously has a ton of contacts all over said everyone he has talked to has told him exactly that. He's a young guy, he got high on himself after year two and didn't work on mechanics as much as he should have as they were cleared up in year 2. He made a mistake. I'm pissed of course because we had a wasted season because of it, but good lord...talking like he "doesnt care" or "doesn't work hard" is pretty ridiciulous to say when it seems like all we hear about in the offseason are how he's in Cali or Jacksonville with his guys doing camps and working on things. Then you hear Prisco who obviously doesn't have a filter say the same thing about Bortles being a hard working/very much caring about being the best.

 

I'm honestly very confident in Bortles. Like I said, bring in a solid veteran backup or a QB in the draft somewhere, but I fully expect Blake to have a solid year next year.

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He's a young guy, he got high on himself after year two and didn't work on mechanics as much as he should have as they were cleared up in year 2. He made a mistake.


I'm honestly very confident in Bortles. Like I said, bring in a solid veteran backup or a QB in the draft somewhere, but I fully expect Blake to have a solid year next year.

Yeah I completely agree. Blake is one of the most open Quarterbacks in the NFL during interviews, and perhaps this makes him seem lay back or him not caring. But to me it shows quite the opposite. He's had quite a lot going against him, horrible O-Line play, 0 running game, inconsistent running game, bad drops, and 3 Likely 4 offensive coordinators in his 4 years. Now this doesn't mean it's everyone else's fault, however he hasn't had consistency at all in his career.


Blake is talented and I do believe has the potential to be great. Now that he knows (really should've been coached this), that training technique/mechanics MUST NEVER stop. That's in any craft. If you don't use it, you lose it.

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I'd say they'll have the new GM within a week or two, plenty of time to hire a HC.

Let's say you're right. How many other teams film their HC vacancies in that same time frame? And how many assistant coaches are hired before SF gets that HC identified. The chances of them agreeing to terms with a GM before two or three of the top targets are gone is slim. Rounding out the coaching staff will be even harder to fill with top end coaches. The owner is doing a disservice to everyone by waiting so late to make this move. The fact he is making his third HC move in 3 years tells me he isn't a great owner.

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Only a chump boos the home team!

How will a HC be "forced" with Bortles? Did the GM not come out and said no one is safe on this team? You really think Caldwell is going to make a HC come in here and use a QB that may not be the answer and cause him to lose his job? No, just no. Also, if you seriously think the clock will only start for SF once they get a QB you're wrong. He'll get 3 years, more if after those 3 years he is worth keeping around. Not many teams give a HC as much time as we gave Bradley. There's a reason there was so many people talking highly of Khan and his patience, and every article you read about the Jaguars HC situation is how it's ideal because the owner is more patient than most in the NFL.


If the HC and this team suck for the next two years, why the hell would we want to keep them anyway? Like Seriously?


You go ahead and think whatever you want. You are seriously wrong on Tannehill. He was replacement level bad just like Bortles was much of this season. They sought out an offensive mind that they thought could "fix" him, they did just that, and now they are in the playoffs. That exact sitaution is very possible here.


Being a natural thrower of the football has nothing to do with it. He's never going to be a naturual thrower of the football. He wasn't last year when he threw for over 4000 yards and 35 td's. You don't need to be natural to do well. You think Rivers has a normal throwing motion? His mechanics were fine all of 2015, he worked with House early after the offseason last year. So yeah, I'd imagine his mechanics looked just fine. Then, while working with the Jaguars receivers and away from House, they began deteriorating and THIS coaching staff allowed it to happen. He can't fix it himself, any half way decent offensive coaches wouldn't allow that. They didn't need a ton of work at all last year. Last year his problem was decision making and trying to make things out of nothing, which are things most young QB's do. You don't need perfect mechanics to succeed in the NFL.

Because Caldwell is linked to the hip with Bortles. Realistically Bortles is the starter next year unless we draft a QB high. Yeah I do. Clock will start when they pick a QB high this year or next year , if the QB shows good growth the HC will stay longer, its not that complicated.


Yeah that's what happens with opinions my man. I like Bortles and hope the same happens , I'm just skeptical he will ever develop into a good QB.


Point being Bortles knows he needs to work on his mechanics as much as possible. He didn't do that. Rivers has a strange motion but is HOFer who wins in every area of the field with his throws, Bortles does not have that luxury. What do you think House told him to do when they worked with each other this offseason? Do you think he told him to just let his mechanics regress or do you think he told him to work his [BLEEP] of and have them ready to go for the start of the season? I'd wager the latter.


He doesn't need them to be perfect , even average mechanics will do. When you turn the ball over as much as Blake does and consistently make mental errors you need to be able to rely on your arm. We saw what happens when Blake doesn't have faith in his arm.

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Because Caldwell is linked to the hip with Bortles. Realistically Bortles is the starter next year unless we draft a QB high. Yeah I do. Clock will start when they pick a QB high this year or next year , if the QB shows good growth the HC will stay longer, its not that complicated.


Yeah that's what happens with opinions my man. I like Bortles and hope the same happens , I'm just skeptical he will ever develop into a good QB.


Point being Bortles knows he needs to work on his mechanics as much as possible. He didn't do that. Rivers has a strange motion but is HOFer who wins in every area of the field with his throws, Bortles does not have that luxury. What do you think House told him to do when they worked with each other this offseason? Do you think he told him to just let his mechanics regress or do you think he told him to work his [BAD WORD REMOVED] of and have them ready to go for the start of the season? I'd wager the latter.


He doesn't need them to be perfect , even average mechanics will do. When you turn the ball over as much as Blake does and consistently make mental errors you need to be able to rely on your arm. We saw what happens when Blake doesn't have faith in his arm.

Okay, you brought me back in for one more. lol

 

Caldwell is linked to Bortles sure, but if we start winning it won't matter. Say we bring in a vet or draft a guy like Mahomes who I like, and Bortles gets beat out and they take over. If we go 7-9/8-8 with them instead of Bortles at QB, you really think Caldwell is getting fired? I don't. That same situation the 49ers are in could be said about the Jaguars. If the 49ers pass on a QB this year and get one in 2018, why can't the Jaguars do the same? We aren't picking up Bortles option for 2018. If he flames out next year, a HC will get his pick of the litter at QB in the draft in 2018.

 

The Jets were close to firing Todd Bowles who was forced to have Fitzpatrick at QB when he went 10-6 last year. Yet, this coach in SF, is getting the same amount of time as Gus Bradley or more? If he does well, of course he will. Same goes for Caldwell and our new HC. If the HC does well, than we'll do well, and he'll be here until a change is needed several years from now.

 

He had average mechanics in 2015. We had a very solid offense considering the offensive line and running game. He has shown he can be that guy. He had a setback this year, not the first QB to have a poor year. Not going to flip out about him with it happening, especially with the coaching staff we saddled him with.

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Let's say you're right. How many other teams film their HC vacancies in that same time frame? And how many assistant coaches are hired before SF gets that HC identified. The chances of them agreeing to terms with a GM before two or three of the top targets are gone is slim. Rounding out the coaching staff will be even harder to fill with top end coaches. The owner is doing a disservice to everyone by waiting so late to make this move. The fact he is making his third HC move in 3 years tells me he isn't a great owner.

Yeah Jed is a bad owner but Trent Baalke ran Harbaugh out of town, Tomsula was a stop gap coach because nobody wanted the job and Chip Kelly was meant to be Baalkes chance of redemption but York fired him. You're right York isn't really doing himself any favours by starting this late.

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Okay, you brought me back in for one more. lol


Caldwell is linked to Bortles sure, but if we start winning it won't matter. Say we bring in a vet or draft a guy like Mahomes who I like, and Bortles gets beat out and they take over. If we go 7-9/8-8 with them instead of Bortles at QB, you really think Caldwell is getting fired? I don't. That same situation the 49ers are in could be said about the Jaguars. If the 49ers pass on a QB this year and get one in 2018, why can't the Jaguars do the same? We aren't picking up Bortles option for 2018. If he flames out next year, a HC will get his pick of the litter at QB in the draft in 2018.


The Jets were close to firing Todd Bowles who was forced to have Fitzpatrick at QB when he went 10-6 last year. Yet, this coach in SF, is getting the same amount of time as Gus Bradley or more? If he does well, of course he will. Same goes for Caldwell and our new HC. If the HC does well, than we'll do well, and he'll be here until a change is needed several years from now.


He had average mechanics in 2015. We had a very solid offense considering the offensive line and running game. He has shown he can be that guy. He had a setback this year, not the first QB to have a poor year. Not going to flip out about him with it happening, especially with the coaching staff we saddled him with.

I find it hard not reply too


Well yeah, that's a given isn't it? If we win next year all is well. Same with the 9ers job. The difference being Caldwell has two years max to get the job done. But we've been through that at length.


Yeah I like Blake and hope he does well I'm just skeptical that he ever outs it all together based on what I have seen.

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So to summarize our debate:


Winning = Good

Losing = Bad


Better mechanics = Good

Bad mechanics = Bad


Blake = Maybe good/maybe bad

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Goodwin is offense?

 

 

Oh... my bad. I thought he was defense. I just assumed we'd be going after the guy in charge of the league's top defense.

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'02

The more I see and hear about Vance Joseph, the more I like his capabilities as a guy to be a strong head coaching candidate. Just looks like a no nonsense guy and well respected league wide which means he'll possibly acquire a good staff. Don't see him being hired here because of no head coaching experience but looks like he'll be a good one

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The more I see and hear about Vance Joseph, the more I like his capabilities as a guy to be a strong head coaching candidate. Just looks like a no nonsense guy and well respected league wide which means he'll possibly acquire a good staff. Don't see him being hired here because of no head coaching experience but looks like he'll be a good one

 

He's only been a defensive coordinator for one year. Not that it should disqualify him from a coaching job. But I would use caution with that in mind. He has ties to San Francisco, Cincinnati and Houston though. So the idea that he could draw in a lot of good people to be a part of his staff seems fairly reasonable. But to be honest. I think he has Raheem Morris written all over him.

 

I just don't think he has enough experience and background as an overall defensive coordinator to justify giving him the head coaching job just yet. Kris Richard out of SEA I think would be a better candidate. Possibly Dean Pees as well. 

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

So to summarize our debate:


Winning = Good

Losing = Bad


Better mechanics = Good

Bad mechanics = Bad


Blake = Maybe good/maybe bad

 

Thanks.  Saves me a lot of reading. 

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I find it hard not reply too

Well yeah, that's a given isn't it? If we win next year all is well. Same with the 9ers job. The difference being Caldwell has two years max to get the job done.

Zero evidence for this assumption.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

Not going to read 25 pages, but I heard on the radio that Tom Coughlin was ruled out.

 

What happened?

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Not going to read 25 pages, but I heard on the radio that Tom Coughlin was ruled out.


What happened?

That happened like last week. The assumption is he wanted more control than we were willing to give.

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IT WAS ALWAYS THE JAGS