1.  I have been following NFL football since 1977.  I have not stopped following football at any time between then and now.  That covers the 2011 season.

2.  I have heard various versions of the Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow propaganda.  Some have theorized that a larger than life figure in Denver who amassed a first ballot Hall of Fame career with five Super Bowl appearances (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII) and two Super Bowl victories (XXXII, XXXIII) was somehow threatened by or jealous of Tebow's popularity.  Some have posited the religious bias angle.  Yet none have offered a scintilla of actual objective, verifiable proof of any of this.  

3.  Elway has had problems drafting QBs over the years.  With this admission in mind, I would assert as a Hall of Fame QB himself who has learned the position from some of the best coaches in NFL history knows a little bit more about the position than most Tebow fans., Elway understands the position better than most.

4.  Even assuming Elway somehow lucked out with Manning's availability and was able to execute his nefarious plan to rid Denver of Tebow, it does not, in any way, explain the reticence of 31 other teams to pay more than a middling 4th round pick for him or to give him a shot at starting QB.  If Tebow played superbly at the most important and most difficult position to fill in sports and became available to every team, I guarantee he would have commanded more than a 4th round pick.  I guarantee more than two teams would have offered to trade for him.  I've yet to hear a Tebow apologist explain the lack of interest in Tebow after his supposedly brilliant 2011.  I have yet to hear a rational, fact based argument showing how Elway getting rid of Tebow was the wrong move.  I have yet to hear a rational fact based argument showing how 31 other teams who refused to give Tebow a shot at starting QB after 2011 made a mistake.

5.  McNown and Ponder were athletic.  As athletic as say, Vick or Kaepernick?  Perhaps not, but still athletic compared to many other QBs (especially McNown).  But even taking your assessment of the quality of the examples as accurate, the  underlying question still stands unaddressed by you. If athletic mobile QBs who cannot function effectively within the pocket as passers are of limited use/value as starting NFL QBs, what makes that analysis NOT apply to Tebow?

1. Then you choose to omit things or misremember what happened. You failed to mentions Elway's bad talent evaluation or desire to get rid of Tebow during the 2011 season until it was brought up.

2. Irrelevant. It really doesn't matter why Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow. The fact is that he did get want to get rid of him and his behavior and actions indicate such. It's actually quite normal for a new GM to come in and want to clean house on the actions of previous GMs' so not sure why it's important to you what those reasons were. 

3. You yourself admit that Elway has a problem identifying talent. Someone who knew what he was doing in terms of the QB position doesn't trade up for Paxton Lynch and pass up on Dak Prescott or miss identifying Pat Mahomes as a must get.  This puts Elway's evaluation of the QB position in the modern game in question. He's just not great at evaluating just like Michael Jordan is a horrible talent evaluator despite being the greatest player ever.

4. Is irrelevant because Elway did want to get rid of Tebow. He drafted his son's roommate, Brock Osweiiler in the 2nd round and signed Manning, which pretty much assured Tebow was gone given Tebow's 1st round salary. It was obvious to every other team that Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow so why on earth would anyone pay a high price to get him.

5. Still odd that you bring up McNown and Ponder. Both are smaller and frailer and only a little bit athletic. Different body types and players. And neither has won at any level college or pro. So I can only assume you picked those two for one reason as a comp for Tebow.

1.  No, I didn't omit anything from the analysis, either before Elway came up in this discussion or after.  Nor did I misremember any relevant facts.  You keep harping on Elway's record at drafting QBs.  Again I acknowledge his draft misses, either his drafting players he should not have drafted or failing to draft players he should have.  However, basing your analysis on this is faulty for several reasons:

• It is immaterial.  Elway DID NOT draft Tebow.  He did not draft a guy he should not have drafted in the case of Tebow, nor did he fail to draft a player he should have drafted in the case of Tebow.  His drafting skills at QB do not matter in this analysis, in large part because...
  
• it is incomplete.  Drafting/not drafting a QB is not all there is when it comes to managing the position.  Knowing when/if to get rid of a QB on your roster is also key to effectively managing the position.  Every year, teams cut guys who are effectively camp arms...guys with little to no chance of making the roster, but who are on teams to limit the reps for the starters to keep their arms fresh.  Nobody bats an eye when these guys are cut, except for the guys who are actually cut and their family and friends rooting for them to make the team.  Nobody who follows the team ever really thinks about him again. Conversely, there are also guys who are great players/have great potential who have no business being cut or traded away by their original teams, and go on to untold success wit their new team while their former team has egg on their faces for making such a boneheaded move.   In 1991 the Falcons drafted Brett Favre but then because of his partying, they traded him the next year to the Green Bay Packers.  For the next twenty or so years, Brett Favre became a first ballot Hall of Famer, winning a Super Bowl, guiding the Packers to two, winning multiple league MVPs and being named to any number of All Pro and Pro Bowl teams.  How did Atlanta fare at the position after trading him?  Not so well.  Then there's New England.  They had the GOAT QB already on the roster, and he won six Super Bowls for them and took them to three others.  But different surrounding positions fell into disrepair on the team, notably WR.  They refused to adequately address the deficiencies and ultimately let him walk.  Brady went to Tampa and promptly won last year's Super Bowl, while New England had their worst record since the 2000 season.   Denver had Tebow on the roster when Elway came aboard.  Denver traded Tebow away, and within the following four seasons amassed a 50-14 regular season record, went to two Super Bowls, winning one.  Tebow never started another game as an NFL QB.   While I do not work as an educator, I think a very short multiple choice pop quiz is in order. Which of those dynamics described above  does the Tebow departure from Denver most resemble?  The camp arm cut that nobody from Denver regrets making, or the irretrievably stupid cut that the original team regrets while the subsequent team flourishes?  
  
• It's insane.  If you think Elway's evaluation of Tebow's performance is somehow irrelevant to the discussion, the analysis is insane.  GMs make performance evaluations all the time.  You argue as if you think Elway had no legitimate football based reasoning to dump Tebow.  You cite his drafting of Brock Osweiler as some sort of indicia the dumping of Tebow was illegitimate.  I'll be the first to admit Osweiler was no great shakes as a QB.  But a glance at his performance shows more than DOUBLE Tebow's career TD passes and a completion percentage double digits higher than Tebow's. At what point do objective statistical comparisons hold any weight with Tebow fans? The insanity deepens if you think Tebow as a QB was universally viewed as an undeniable talent at the most important position in football would not command more than a 4th round pick in trade.  Even if Denver were eager to get rid of him despite his alleged greatness to achieve some bizarre form of football nepotism by Elway, the demand for his services by QB starved teams not operating with some anti Tebow ulterior motive would be overwhelming.  There would be a bidding war for his services.  Teams would eagerly offer a first round pick at least for an in his prime great QB with virtually unassailable character and a cheap rookie contract (see Bears offer for Russell Wilson;  see also Buffalo trade for Rob Johnson back in 1998).  Heck, for a player with some questionable off field issues at a non QB position, reportedly 26 of the 32 teams made some sort of inquiry about the availability of Jalen Ramsey.  But somehow they wouldn't get in a bidding war for Tim Tebow if they thought he was great?!? 
  

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

1. Then you choose to omit things or misremember what happened. You failed to mentions Elway's bad talent evaluation or desire to get rid of Tebow during the 2011 season until it was brought up.

2. Irrelevant. It really doesn't matter why Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow. The fact is that he did get want to get rid of him and his behavior and actions indicate such. It's actually quite normal for a new GM to come in and want to clean house on the actions of previous GMs' so not sure why it's important to you what those reasons were. 

3. You yourself admit that Elway has a problem identifying talent. Someone who knew what he was doing in terms of the QB position doesn't trade up for Paxton Lynch and pass up on Dak Prescott or miss identifying Pat Mahomes as a must get.  This puts Elway's evaluation of the QB position in the modern game in question. He's just not great at evaluating just like Michael Jordan is a horrible talent evaluator despite being the greatest player ever.

4. Is irrelevant because Elway did want to get rid of Tebow. He drafted his son's roommate, Brock Osweiiler in the 2nd round and signed Manning, which pretty much assured Tebow was gone given Tebow's 1st round salary. It was obvious to every other team that Elway wanted to get rid of Tebow so why on earth would anyone pay a high price to get him.

5. Still odd that you bring up McNown and Ponder. Both are smaller and frailer and only a little bit athletic. Different body types and players. And neither has won at any level college or pro. So I can only assume you picked those two for one reason as a comp for Tebow.

1.  No, I didn't omit anything from the analysis, either before Elway came up in this discussion or after.  Nor did I misremember any relevant facts.  You keep harping on Elway's record at drafting QBs.  Again I acknowledge his draft misses, either his drafting players he should not have drafted or failing to draft players he should have.  However, basing your analysis on this is faulty for several reasons:

• It is immaterial.  Elway DID NOT draft Tebow.  He did not draft a guy he should not have drafted in the case of Tebow, nor did he fail to draft a player he should have drafted in the case of Tebow.  His drafting skills at QB do not matter in this analysis, in large part because...
  
• it is incomplete.  Drafting/not drafting a QB is not all there is when it comes to managing the position.  Knowing when/if to get rid of a QB on your roster is also key to effectively managing the position.  Every year, teams cut guys who are effectively camp arms...guys with little to no chance of making the roster, but who are on teams to limit the reps for the starters to keep their arms fresh.  Nobody bats an eye when these guys are cut, except for the guys who are actually cut and their family and friends rooting for them to make the team.  Nobody who follows the team ever really thinks about him again. Conversely, there are also guys who are great players/have great potential who have no business being cut or traded away by their original teams, and go on to untold success wit their new team while their former team has egg on their faces for making such a boneheaded move.   In 1991 the Falcons drafted Brett Favre but then because of his partying, they traded him the next year to the Green Bay Packers.  For the next twenty or so years, Brett Favre became a first ballot Hall of Famer, winning a Super Bowl, guiding the Packers to two, winning multiple league MVPs and being named to any number of All Pro and Pro Bowl teams.  How did Atlanta fare at the position after trading him?  Not so well.  Then there's New England.  They had the GOAT QB already on the roster, and he won six Super Bowls for them and took them to three others.  But different surrounding positions fell into disrepair on the team, notably WR.  They refused to adequately address the deficiencies and ultimately let him walk.  Brady went to Tampa and promptly won last year's Super Bowl, while New England had their worst record since the 2000 season.   Denver had Tebow on the roster when Elway came aboard.  Denver traded Tebow away, and within the following four seasons amassed a 50-14 regular season record, went to two Super Bowls, winning one.  Tebow never started another game as an NFL QB.   While I do not work as an educator, I think a very short multiple choice pop quiz is in order. Which of those dynamics described above  does the Tebow departure from Denver most resemble?  The camp arm cut that nobody from Denver regrets making, or the irretrievably stupid cut that the original team regrets while the subsequent team flourishes?  
  
• It's insane.  If you think Elway's evaluation of Tebow's performance is somehow irrelevant to the discussion, the analysis is insane.  GMs make performance evaluations all the time.  You argue as if you think Elway had no legitimate football based reasoning to dump Tebow.  You cite his drafting of Brock Osweiler as some sort of indicia the dumping of Tebow was illegitimate.  I'll be the first to admit Osweiler was no great shakes as a QB.  But a glance at his performance shows more than DOUBLE Tebow's career TD passes and a completion percentage double digits higher than Tebow's. At what point do objective statistical comparisons hold any weight with Tebow fans? The insanity deepens if you think Tebow as a QB was universally viewed as an undeniable talent at the most important position in football would not command more than a 4th round pick in trade.  Even if Denver were eager to get rid of him despite his alleged greatness to achieve some bizarre form of football nepotism by Elway, the demand for his services by QB starved teams not operating with some anti Tebow ulterior motive would be overwhelming.  There would be a bidding war for his services.  Teams would eagerly offer a first round pick at least for an in his prime great QB with virtually unassailable character and a cheap rookie contract (see Bears offer for Russell Wilson;  see also Buffalo trade for Rob Johnson back in 1998).  Heck, for a player with some questionable off field issues at a non QB position, reportedly 26 of the 32 teams made some sort of inquiry about the availability of Jalen Ramsey.  But somehow they wouldn't get in a bidding war for Tim Tebow if they thought he was great?!? 
  

You yourself used Elway as a reason to question Tebow's value as a Game Manger QB.
Yet we have shown that Elway is a horrible evaluator of talent, even at the QB position. (Just like Michael Jordan is a horrible evaluator of talent).

You really have no answer to why Elway traded up for Paxton Lynch and bypassed Dak Prescott.  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent and ability he would not have done this  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent he would have gone after Mahomes the following year.  Yet Elway was all in on both his son's roommate, Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch.  The record speaks for itself with Elway and QB talent evaluation.

I'm not sure how Manning choosing Denver is any vindication of Elway.  Manning is one of the greatest QB's of all time. Of course they made the Super Bowl, duh. Just like Tom Brady choosing Tampa and low and behold Super Bowl. Anybody could do that.

In fact if you look at it Elway has only really won under Manning (Super Bowls) and Tebow (AFC Championship).
So maybe you should show Tebow some more respect then lumping him below perennial losers like Kyle Orton and Christian Ponder. What did those two every win at the pro or college level.

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I think we need to discuss tebow some more. We will all convince each other eventually haha

NOT!!!!!

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Adam Sandler could play TE for the Jags and wouldn’t lose 15 in a row.

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@bullseye I don’t have the time to look for your post. The team lost with Orton and won with Tebow. Instead of a mountain of text with stats this answers your first question: NFL’s #1 rushing attack even with opponents knowing what they were going to do and league best time of possession.  When you have the ball for 9 more minutes per game then under 19 ppg doesn’t matter (see 2020 Cowboys).  Second question you asked... why did they do better with Peyton... Tebow=rookie Peyton=hall of game qb with arguably the highest QB IQ ever.  But thanks for comparing him to Peyton... you are starting to get it subconsciously!

You don't have to look for my post.  It's been quoted in full by at least one other poster, and I am providing a link to my original response to you here.

Tim Tebow- Jags new TE (merged) (duvalpride.com)

Secondly, assuming at face value Denver wound up with the #1 rushing offense:

1.  Tebow wasn't the sole reason for it.  In fact, you could argue he wasn't even the primary reason for it.  Willis McGahee almost DOUBLED Tebow's rushing output in 2011.  2011 Denver Broncos Statistics & Players | Pro-Football-Reference.com

2.  Why did teams know what was coming?  Because Tebow couldn't pass the ball!  Let's view this from a different perspective.  What happened when they faced New England in the playoffs?  They were crushed 45-10, in large part because Tebow couldn't muster any offense against them.  Even Blake Bortles put up more than ten points against New England in the playoffs.

3.  I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make by referencing the 2020 Cowboys.  They finished 27th in time of possession, 6-10 in the weakest division in football and out of the playoffs.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Average Time of Possession (Excluding OT) | TeamRankings.com

4.  Believe me, I do not in any way compare Tebow with Manning.  I am CONTRASTING Tebow with Manning.  However, I HAVE compared Tebow with many of the all time QB busts in NFL history, and even then Tebow has come up short in many cases.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

@bullseye

Dec 4, 2011

Tom Brady, after living a full life, died. When he got to heaven, God was showing him around. They came to a modest little house with a faded Patriots flag in the window.

"This house is yours for eternity Tom, said God. "This is very special; not everyone gets a house up here."

Tom felt special, indeed, and walked up to his house. On his way up the porch, he noticed another house just around the corner. It was a huge 3-story mansion with Orange and Blue sidewalks and drive ways, a 50 foot tall flagpole with an enormous Broncos logo flag waving, a swimming pool in shape of a horse, a Broncos logo in every window, and a Tim Tebow jersey on the front door.

Tom looked at God and said "God, I'm not trying to be ungrateful, but I have a question. I was an all-pro QB, I won 3 Super Bowls, and I even went to the Hall of Fame."

God said "So what's your point Tom?" "Well, why does Tim Tebow get a better house than me?"

God chuckled, and said "Tom, that's not Tim's house, it's mine."

Maybe Urban thought only divine interference could get the 1-15 Jags to the playoffs.

---

1.  No, I didn't omit anything from the analysis, either before Elway came up in this discussion or after.  Nor did I misremember any relevant facts.  You keep harping on Elway's record at drafting QBs.  Again I acknowledge his draft misses, either his drafting players he should not have drafted or failing to draft players he should have.  However, basing your analysis on this is faulty for several reasons:

• It is immaterial.  Elway DID NOT draft Tebow.  He did not draft a guy he should not have drafted in the case of Tebow, nor did he fail to draft a player he should have drafted in the case of Tebow.  His drafting skills at QB do not matter in this analysis, in large part because...
  
• it is incomplete.  Drafting/not drafting a QB is not all there is when it comes to managing the position.  Knowing when/if to get rid of a QB on your roster is also key to effectively managing the position.  Every year, teams cut guys who are effectively camp arms...guys with little to no chance of making the roster, but who are on teams to limit the reps for the starters to keep their arms fresh.  Nobody bats an eye when these guys are cut, except for the guys who are actually cut and their family and friends rooting for them to make the team.  Nobody who follows the team ever really thinks about him again. Conversely, there are also guys who are great players/have great potential who have no business being cut or traded away by their original teams, and go on to untold success wit their new team while their former team has egg on their faces for making such a boneheaded move.   In 1991 the Falcons drafted Brett Favre but then because of his partying, they traded him the next year to the Green Bay Packers.  For the next twenty or so years, Brett Favre became a first ballot Hall of Famer, winning a Super Bowl, guiding the Packers to two, winning multiple league MVPs and being named to any number of All Pro and Pro Bowl teams.  How did Atlanta fare at the position after trading him?  Not so well.  Then there's New England.  They had the GOAT QB already on the roster, and he won six Super Bowls for them and took them to three others.  But different surrounding positions fell into disrepair on the team, notably WR.  They refused to adequately address the deficiencies and ultimately let him walk.  Brady went to Tampa and promptly won last year's Super Bowl, while New England had their worst record since the 2000 season.   Denver had Tebow on the roster when Elway came aboard.  Denver traded Tebow away, and within the following four seasons amassed a 50-14 regular season record, went to two Super Bowls, winning one.  Tebow never started another game as an NFL QB.   While I do not work as an educator, I think a very short multiple choice pop quiz is in order. Which of those dynamics described above  does the Tebow departure from Denver most resemble?  The camp arm cut that nobody from Denver regrets making, or the irretrievably stupid cut that the original team regrets while the subsequent team flourishes?  
  
• It's insane.  If you think Elway's evaluation of Tebow's performance is somehow irrelevant to the discussion, the analysis is insane.  GMs make performance evaluations all the time.  You argue as if you think Elway had no legitimate football based reasoning to dump Tebow.  You cite his drafting of Brock Osweiler as some sort of indicia the dumping of Tebow was illegitimate.  I'll be the first to admit Osweiler was no great shakes as a QB.  But a glance at his performance shows more than DOUBLE Tebow's career TD passes and a completion percentage double digits higher than Tebow's. At what point do objective statistical comparisons hold any weight with Tebow fans? The insanity deepens if you think Tebow as a QB was universally viewed as an undeniable talent at the most important position in football would not command more than a 4th round pick in trade.  Even if Denver were eager to get rid of him despite his alleged greatness to achieve some bizarre form of football nepotism by Elway, the demand for his services by QB starved teams not operating with some anti Tebow ulterior motive would be overwhelming.  There would be a bidding war for his services.  Teams would eagerly offer a first round pick at least for an in his prime great QB with virtually unassailable character and a cheap rookie contract (see Bears offer for Russell Wilson;  see also Buffalo trade for Rob Johnson back in 1998).  Heck, for a player with some questionable off field issues at a non QB position, reportedly 26 of the 32 teams made some sort of inquiry about the availability of Jalen Ramsey.  But somehow they wouldn't get in a bidding war for Tim Tebow if they thought he was great?!? 
  

You yourself used Elway as a reason to question Tebow's value as a Game Manger QB.
Yet we have shown that Elway is a horrible evaluator of talent, even at the QB position. (Just like Michael Jordan is a horrible evaluator of talent).

You really have no answer to why Elway traded up for Paxton Lynch and bypassed Dak Prescott.  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent and ability he would not have done this  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent he would have gone after Mahomes the following year.  Yet Elway was all in on both his son's roommate, Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch.  The record speaks for itself with Elway and QB talent evaluation.

I'm not sure how Manning choosing Denver is any vindication of Elway.  Manning is one of the greatest QB's of all time. Of course they made the Super Bowl, duh. Just like Tom Brady choosing Tampa and low and behold Super Bowl. Anybody could do that.

In fact if you look at it Elway has only really won under Manning (Super Bowls) and Tebow (AFC Championship).
So maybe you should show Tebow some more respect then lumping him below perennial losers like Kyle Orton and Christian Ponder. What did those two every win at the pro or college level.

1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round. As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

If Tebow is not a huge liability AKA can block the run and pass protect, he will be on the roster for at least the 3 games he needs for retirement qualifications. He is here for the culture change... after that they will bring up someone from the practice squad?

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

We need at least another 50 pages to talk about a 4th string TE.

---

Why couldn't he beat out Mark Sanchez?

You know why. You watched every Tebow game in Denver.

Well yeah.  He wasn't very good.

By the way.  Word of advice.  Stick to three cone times.  You're not clever enough to be funny.

---

You yourself used Elway as a reason to question Tebow's value as a Game Manger QB.
Yet we have shown that Elway is a horrible evaluator of talent, even at the QB position. (Just like Michael Jordan is a horrible evaluator of talent).

You really have no answer to why Elway traded up for Paxton Lynch and bypassed Dak Prescott.  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent and ability he would not have done this  Surely, if Elway had an accurate grasp of QB talent he would have gone after Mahomes the following year.  Yet Elway was all in on both his son's roommate, Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch.  The record speaks for itself with Elway and QB talent evaluation.

I'm not sure how Manning choosing Denver is any vindication of Elway.  Manning is one of the greatest QB's of all time. Of course they made the Super Bowl, duh. Just like Tom Brady choosing Tampa and low and behold Super Bowl. Anybody could do that.

In fact if you look at it Elway has only really won under Manning (Super Bowls) and Tebow (AFC Championship).
So maybe you should show Tebow some more respect then lumping him below perennial losers like Kyle Orton and Christian Ponder. What did those two every win at the pro or college level.

1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round.  As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

So good to see that you are conceding on the Elway nonsense.  The Michael Jordan of QB talent evaluation.

You are moving the goal posts however with EJ Manuel, Couch, Losman, Boller.
Let me ask you this. How many NFL playoff games and NCAA National Championships did Ponder/Gabbert/Couch/EJ Maneul/Losman/Boller win?

---

You know why. You watched every Tebow game in Denver.

Well yeah.  He wasn't very good.

By the way.  Word of advice.  Stick to three cone times.  You're not clever enough to be funny.

Your a Tebow fan. Nobody watches all of Tebow's Broncos games if they aren't a fan of his.
You'll be the first to jump back on the bandwagon when Tlaw and Tebow start winning with the Jags.

---

1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round.  As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

So good to see that you are conceding on the Elway nonsense.  The Michael Jordan of QB talent evaluation.

You are moving the goal posts however with EJ Manuel, Couch, Losman, Boller.
Let me ask you this. How many NFL playoff games and NCAA National Championships did Ponder/Gabbert/Couch/EJ Maneul/Losman/Boller win?

---

Well yeah.  He wasn't very good.

By the way.  Word of advice.  Stick to three cone times.  You're not clever enough to be funny.

Your a Tebow fan. Nobody watches all of Tebow's Broncos games if they aren't a fan of his.
You'll be the first to jump back on the bandwagon when Tlaw and Tebow start winning with the Jags.

Like I said, you're not clever enough.

Another word of advice your =/= you're

---

So good to see that you are conceding on the Elway nonsense.  The Michael Jordan of QB talent evaluation.

You are moving the goal posts however with EJ Manuel, Couch, Losman, Boller.
Let me ask you this. How many NFL playoff games and NCAA National Championships did Ponder/Gabbert/Couch/EJ Maneul/Losman/Boller win?

---

Your a Tebow fan. Nobody watches all of Tebow's Broncos games if they aren't a fan of his.
You'll be the first to jump back on the bandwagon when Tlaw and Tebow start winning with the Jags.

Like I said, you're not clever enough.

Another word of advice your =/= you're

ah Rico, you are a Tebow fan.  It shows through and through. You have the most posts in this thread.

---

1.  I could completely omit Elway from the discussion and still offer a compelling argument as to why Tebow was wholly unqualified to be an NFL QB.  Your grasping at Elway's draft misses at the position reeks of desperation, and still does not improve Tebow's numbers in any way, nor does it change the fact that no team AFTER Denver got rid of Tebow felt particularly inclined to give Tebow a shot as a starting QB.  You have completely dodged this point in every single one of your posts.  Why?  Do you somehow assert every team had a John Elway who was totally incapable of evaluating the QB position and had an axe to grind against Tebow? What of my argument about knowing which QBs to keep and which to cut?  Do you argue that a team making a personnel mistake or even several at the position mean that every decision at the position was a mistake?  Do you somehow assert that because the Jaguars made mistakes in drafting Gabbert and Bortles it was somehow a mistake to cut Tanner Lee?

2.  No I have no answer as to why Elway made those decisions because they are immaterial to the discussion at hand.  A team could be incorrect in drafting a certain player but correct in getting rid of another.  Furthermore, there is a lot that goes into drafting or executing a trade up to be able to draft a player (Mahomes).  Denver was not in a position to draft Mahomes at their original draft position.  They would have had to spend their own first round pick from that year, but the following year's first round pick.  But Tebow was already on the roster.  The team didn't have to trade up to acquire him like they would have had to with Mahomes or Watson.  He had a full season as an understudy and another as the majority starter yet not even head coach John Fox seemed to offer much objection to trading Tebow.  I could see making the move for Manning.  Once in a lifetime opportunity.  But if Elway and Fox were sold on Tebow's potential, they could have kept him on the bench until Manning retired, extended his contract and let Tebow take over and avoid the draft mishaps.  But they didn't.  They got rid of him, and no subsequent team gave him a shot at QB.  Again, you have not addressed this point.

3.  This article shows how Manning choosing Denver vindicates Elway.  Why Did Peyton Manning Sign With the Denver Broncos? (businessinsider.com).  A non QB ay not have appreciated the importance of system continuity the way Elway, a former QB, did.

4.  Tebow was never in an AFC championship game.  That win over Pittsburgh was the Wildcard round.  The 45-10 blowout loss to New England was the divisional round.  As for the respect that should be afforded Tebow, that is a good question.

How much respect should be afforded to a QB that lasted all of two seasons with the team that drafted him, who never got another starting QB gig anywhere else in the league, who has a career completion percentage of 48 in an era designed by rules changes implemented decades ago to accommodate passing games, who has less than 20 career TD passes, and has never gone beyond the divisional round of the playoffs?

As for whether guys like Christian Ponder are somehow beneath comparison to Tebow?

Here's Ponder's career numbers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ndCh00.htm

Here's Blaine Gabbert's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...bbBl00.htm

Here's Tim Couch's https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ucTi00.htm

E.J. Manuel
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...nuEJ00.htm

JP Losman
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...smJ.00.htm

Kyle Boller:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...llKy00.htm

Here's Tebow's:  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

Now feel free to let me know when I reach a guy among these busts who Tebow statistically blows out of the water as a passer so that a comparison is totally unwarranted.

So good to see that you are conceding on the Elway nonsense.  The Michael Jordan of QB talent evaluation.

You are moving the goal posts however with EJ Manuel, Couch, Losman, Boller.
Let me ask you this. How many NFL playoff games and NCAA National Championships did Ponder/Gabbert/Couch/EJ Maneul/Losman/Boller win?

---

You delude yourself.

I am conceding nothing on the Elway point.  Drafting is only part of the equation.  Purging the roster of dead weight and knowing when to upgrade a position on a roster with free agents or vets is also key.  Once again, you completely DUCKED that argument.

As far as moving the goalposts, nothing could be further from the truth.  If anything I am trying desperately to get you to substantively address Tebow's shortcomings.  I have offered objective, statistical evidence that as a passer, Tebow wasn't as good as his predecessor in the position, nor was he as good as his successor in the position.  I have offered evidence showing that the Denver offense as a whole was less productive with him at the helm than his predecessor and his successor.  I have offered objective statistical evidence that the passing yardage decreased when Tebow was inserted.  I have offered objective statistical evidence showing your claim that Tebow was responsible for Denver's improved rushing totals was overstated, pointing out Willis McGahee nearly doubled Tebow's rushing output.  Nothing you have offered negates or even mitigates ANY of this.

Then I appealed to history and common sense.  You have offered the tacit assertion that Elway had some sort of nefarious agenda in dumping Tebow having nothing to do with football or Tebow's on field performance, minimally at best substantiated by fact.  I pointed out Elway was a former QB that understands the position.  You offered the missed draft picks, as if the failure of Elway to draft a good QB somehow makes Tebow a better QB in the analysis.  I pointed out that even assuming Elway had some sort of axe to grind against Tebow, that alone does not explain the refusal of every other team in the league to make Tebow a starting QB.  We have yet to hear you address that point at all, much less substantively.  When I pointed out that QB is such an in demand position, that even a guy like Rob Johnson merited a first round pick plus a 4th round pick in trade, while Tebow had a far lengthier on field record and could only command a 4th, you respond by incredibly offering there's no demand for a great QB and that somehow Denver's interest in ridding itself of Tebow eliminates the need to maximize any possible return they could get for him.

Your pathetic filibuster continued when you continued to duck my question about why the analysis of mobile QBs with limited passing proficiency should not apply to Tebow.  Long after I posed the question, as of this post, you have yet to address that issue.  You then became indignant at the idea I would lump Tebow in with the likes of Christian Ponder and suggested I should give Tebow more respect.  Yet when I posted links comparing Tebow's numbers were worse in most passing categories than every single bust QB I listed, instead of showing how Tebow's numbers were substantially better as to not warrant comparison, you accuse me of moving the goal post in offering those numbers for comparison.  If Tebow was demonstrably better than those guys, it isn't a particularly onerous burden to show how Tebow's career far exceeds theirs.  Instead, you pose the question as to how many playoff games and college national championships the bust QBs I have listed have won.

Unlike you, I won't duck that inquiry.  I will address it directly.  All of those QBs have exactly ONE (1) fewer playoff win than Tebow.  WHoop de [BLEEP] doo!  As far as college national championships....who in the blue hell cares?  Danny Wuerffel, Chris Weinke, Jamelle Holloway, Jay Barker have all won National Championships in college. (We'll call this group A) Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, John Elway, Dan Marino, Big Ben, Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, Patrick Mahomes and Brett Favre did not.  (we'll call this group B.  Which group represents the best NFL QBs?

As others have pointed out, it's sad that in a forum devoted to NFL football, you have to resort to college national championships to somehow puff up the pro career of Tim Tebow.  It's a tacit admission that his pro performance cannot stand on it's own merit.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Heh. Word count for those who have Tebow living rent-free in their heads vs those who are crazy fans.

The only thing more certain than a ranting anti-Tebow post is... well, there isn't anything. At this point I hope Tebow makes the team just to watch cadre of psychologically scarred and permanently unhappy go the entire season fueling their anger rather than enjoying a sure to be exciting year of Jags football. Let go of your hatred. There is good in you still.

---

Heh.   Word count for those who have Tebow living rent-free in their heads vs those who are crazy fans.

The only thing more certain than a ranting anti-Tebow post is... well, there isn't anything.  At this point I hope Tebow makes the team just to watch cadre of psychologically scarred and permanently unhappy go the entire season fueling their anger rather than enjoying a sure to be exciting year of Jags football.  Let go of your hatred.  There is good in you still.

Why do you think being critical of a signing means the player is hated? It's ok to be critical of a player or signing, really. Especially if a guy's been out of the league this long. If the Jags went out and re-signed say, Mike Sims-Walker to play cornerback, most people would be extremely critical and justifiably. It doesn't mean they hate the guy. So why is this particular signing supposed to be immune to criticism?

---

I'm condescending. That means I talk down to you.

At this point in the game, unless there's new info on Tebow, there's nothing to be said that hasn't been said over and over before.. Kinda beating a dead horse. But, what do I know..

---

Heh.   Word count for those who have Tebow living rent-free in their heads vs those who are crazy fans.

The only thing more certain than a ranting anti-Tebow post is... well, there isn't anything.  At this point I hope Tebow makes the team just to watch cadre of psychologically scarred and permanently unhappy go the entire season fueling their anger rather than enjoying a sure to be exciting year of Jags football.  Let go of your hatred.  There is good in you still.

Why do you think being critical of a signing means the player is hated? It's ok to be critical of a player or signing, really. Especially if a guy's been out of the league this long. If the Jags went out and re-signed say, Mike Sims-Walker to play cornerback, most people would be extremely critical and justifiably. It doesn't mean they hate the guy. So why is this particular signing supposed to be immune to criticism?

Being critical?  Duh, obviously no issue.  Responding with multiple essays to any supporting post, no matter how tepid?  That's obsession, not criticism.

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The next time you hear the trope "any publicity is good publicity" just link this thread as the counterfactual checkmate.

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The next time you hear the trope "any publicity is good publicity" just link this thread as the counterfactual checkmate.

What? A thread full of Tebow cultists and bed wetters who do nothing but gnash teeth and hand wring at the mention of his name?

He still has the number 1 & 2 top jerseys sales in the NFL.. Even bad publicity can be better than no publicity.. I'd rather be talked about than forgotten..

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