Dave got A Rob and Chark in his 7 years.  I think we can do better than that

If you buy the assumption that WRs are a dime a dozen, in theory we SHOULD be able to do better than that.

But consider:

1.  Caldwell also managed to get Hurns as an UDFA.  Hurns was better than any of the guys below looking at their overall careers and skill sets.

2.  In the 21 non Caldwell yerars of this franchise's history, we bever drafted ANY Pro bowl WRs.  We lucked out and got Jimmy Smith as a street free agent.  We got Keenan McCardell as a FA from Cleveland after that franchise imploded.  Outside of Caldwell, this franchise has not demonstrated ANY ability whatsoever to draft anything close to a stud WR.  The closest we've come was Justin Blackmon, and we know how spectacularly that backfired.  After him?  Ernest Wilford was the best we've done.  Soward?  Reggie Williams?  Matt Jones?!?  Bzzzt!  Example after example of draft day failure at the position.

3.  Throughout his entire career as a GM, including his SF days, Baalke has not proven able to identify/draft a stud WR.  In fact, he supposedly came from the Parcells/Belichick/Gerge Young tree.  If so, those guys have been unable to draft a good WR dating back to the 1980s.

Given this franchise's history, there is no reason for your confidence we can do better at the position.

I don't think they are a dime a dozen but it is one of the easiest positions to fix.  Just look at all the great WRs Dave passed on when he was GM.

1. I don't give Dave much credit for Hurns because he passed him up in every round tha year and just got lucky that nobody drafted him and that Hurns chose to come to Jax

2. Oh I know the history of this franchise and the WR position.  Just because we have been horrible at draftiing in that department before Dave got there doesn't make Dave any good.  Maybe you don't think we can do better than Dave but I do. 

3. What this franchise has done In the past is irrelevant to me, it's a new era.  Much more WRs are coming into the league making an impact and setting records as rookies, yards records, catch records etc.  Dave passed on so many great WRs when they were clearly BPA but he felt he had a bigger need at a different position so he went a different route.  I think we can do better than Dave and next year I think is the year we take a WR high,  In the first or 2nd

---

I am aiming high for him and Josh Allen this year. I told 1010XL yesterday I want to see Allen hit 14.5. Which would tie the franchise mark and I said I would be happy if Walker hit 9.5 sacks as a rookie this year. Devin Lloyd getting 7.5 as well. I know that's 30 sacks between three players but I fully expect the defense to be the bread winner this year and shutting down the ground game. Couple that in with a division where they rely heavily on the ground game and you've got QB's like Matt Ryan twice a year to feast on?

I think it's possible. Especially if this offense sneaks up on teams early and gets a jump up on the scoreboard. We have a Superbowl winning coach, a competent roster on paper for now, a really good looking draft class now from last year and so far this year it appears promising. Expectations need to be high. [BLEEP] all of this shooting for just below average or average. I expect this team to make some waves this year and I expect them to start making serious runs and holding real contention in this AFC South for the next decade.

Bad teams can get really, really good really, really fast with the right coaching staff and some lucky breaks here and there. I don't see why Jacksonville can't fall into this same trend and category in 2022.

Still aiming high on my end. I know it was early but Walker got off to a great start. Key was also looking pretty good. I think once you see Lloyd, Oluokun, Fatukasi & Cisco out there in the line-up with guys like Walker, Allen & Key? It's very possible they hit these marks above. We'll see how the first string offense looks this Friday coming up. Hopefully they also get off to a fast start and hit pay dirt early. I don't expect anything gaudy but I would like to see an even distribution in the passing game where we nickel and dime it into the endzone.

I think they get 14.5 easily imo.  I think Allen gets  career high with 12 and Walker gers 7

---

If you buy the assumption that WRs are a dime a dozen, in theory we SHOULD be able to do better than that.

But consider:

1.  Caldwell also managed to get Hurns as an UDFA.  Hurns was better than any of the guys below looking at their overall careers and skill sets.

2.  In the 21 non Caldwell yerars of this franchise's history, we bever drafted ANY Pro bowl WRs.  We lucked out and got Jimmy Smith as a street free agent.  We got Keenan McCardell as a FA from Cleveland after that franchise imploded.  Outside of Caldwell, this franchise has not demonstrated ANY ability whatsoever to draft anything close to a stud WR.  The closest we've come was Justin Blackmon, and we know how spectacularly that backfired.  After him?  Ernest Wilford was the best we've done.  Soward?  Reggie Williams?  Matt Jones?!?  Bzzzt!  Example after example of draft day failure at the position.

3.  Throughout his entire career as a GM, including his SF days, Baalke has not proven able to identify/draft a stud WR.  In fact, he supposedly came from the Parcells/Belichick/Gerge Young tree.  If so, those guys have been unable to draft a good WR dating back to the 1980s.

Given this franchise's history, there is no reason for your confidence we can do better at the position.

I don't think they are a dime a dozen but it is one of the easiest positions to fix.  Just look at all the great WRs Dave passed on when he was GM.

1. I don't give Dave much credit for Hurns because he passed him up in every round tha year and just got lucky that nobody drafted him and that Hurns chose to come to Jax

2. Oh I know the history of this franchise and the WR position.  Just because we have been horrible at draftiing in that department before Dave got there doesn't make Dave any good.  Maybe you don't think we can do better than Dave but I do. 

3. What this franchise has done In the past is irrelevant to me, it's a new era.  Much more WRs are coming into the league making an impact and setting records as rookies, yards records, catch records etc.  Dave passed on so many great WRs when they were clearly BPA but he felt he had a bigger need at a different position so he went a different route.  I think we can do better than Dave and next year I think is the year we take a WR high,  In the first or 2nd

---

Look at where the team was when Caldwell took over.  The team had so many different needs and so few draft picks, he couldn't help but to pass up a great player, irrespective of position.  In 1989, Dallas drafted Troy Aikman-a great player.  In doing so, they passed up on great players Derrick Thomas, Barry Sanders, and Deion Sanders. Did that mean they didn't think those were great players?  Did that mean they weren't capable of identifying great platers?   Passing up on several great WRs in the absence of a larger context is not conclusive of anything.

1.  As for not giving credit for Hurns, keep in mind that Caldwell never had to pursue/sign Hurns as an UDFA.  He could have prusued and signed any number of less talented players.  Furthermore, Hurns was better than just about all of the receivers who the team actually drafted.  Yes, he deserves credit for Hurns.  But even assumng you don't give credit for Hurns, it still doesn't make the case this team has proven itself capable of drafting quality WRs outside of Caldwell.

2.  For the purposes of this discussion, I am not advancing the theory that Caldwell was any good.  I am advancing the theory that it's not as easy for this organization to draft a quality WR as you assert.  If you completely remove Caldwell from the occasion, or reflexively put Caldwell's picks in the worst possible light, this franchise has not otherwise proven competent at identifying talent at the WR position.

3.  There are so many internal contradictions in your argument here I'm not sure what to make of it.  You say the Jaguars' past at drafting WR is irrelevant to you, yet two sentences later, go into this litany of bypassed WRs under Caldwell.  Furthermore, if all you are talking about is the present and future, it still doesn't establish how this team is able to surpass the team's ability to draft a WR under Caldwell.  Having a bunch of WRs come into the league is moot if the team is unable to identify those players or otherwise unwilling to draft them when they can.  Looking from the present forward, Baalke is this team's GM.  Did he draft any WRs during his two year tenure as GM here?  Is there any indication he is able to identify quality WRs going forward?

2.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I don't think they are a dime a dozen but it is one of the easiest positions to fix.  Just look at all the great WRs Dave passed on when he was GM.

1. I don't give Dave much credit for Hurns because he passed him up in every round tha year and just got lucky that nobody drafted him and that Hurns chose to come to Jax

2. Oh I know the history of this franchise and the WR position.  Just because we have been horrible at draftiing in that department before Dave got there doesn't make Dave any good.  Maybe you don't think we can do better than Dave but I do. 

3. What this franchise has done In the past is irrelevant to me, it's a new era.  Much more WRs are coming into the league making an impact and setting records as rookies, yards records, catch records etc.  Dave passed on so many great WRs when they were clearly BPA but he felt he had a bigger need at a different position so he went a different route.  I think we can do better than Dave and next year I think is the year we take a WR high,  In the first or 2nd

---

Look at where the team was when Caldwell took over.  The team had so many different needs and so few draft picks, he couldn't help but to pass up a great player, irrespective of position.  In 1989, Dallas drafted Troy Aikman-a great player.  In doing so, they passed up on great players Derrick Thomas, Barry Sanders, and Deion Sanders. Did that mean they didn't think those were great players?  Did that mean they weren't capable of identifying great platers?   Passing up on several great WRs in the absence of a larger context is not conclusive of anything.

1.  As for not giving credit for Hurns, keep in mind that Caldwell never had to pursue/sign Hurns as an UDFA.  He could have prusued and signed any number of less talented players.  Furthermore, Hurns was better than just about all of the receivers who the team actually drafted.  Yes, he deserves credit for Hurns.  But even assumng you don't give credit for Hurns, it still doesn't make the case this team has proven itself capable of drafting quality WRs outside of Caldwell.

2.  For the purposes of this discussion, I am not advancing the theory that Caldwell was any good.  I am advancing the theory that it's not as easy for this organization to draft a quality WR as you assert.  If you completely remove Caldwell from the occasion, or reflexively put Caldwell's picks in the worst possible light, this franchise has not otherwise proven competent at identifying talent at the WR position.

3.  There are so many internal contradictions in your argument here I'm not sure what to make of it.  You say the Jaguars' past at drafting WR is irrelevant to you, yet two sentences later, go into this litany of bypassed WRs under Caldwell.  Furthermore, if all you are talking about is the present and future, it still doesn't establish how this team is able to surpass the team's ability to draft a WR under Caldwell.  Having a bunch of WRs come into the league is moot if the team is unable to identify those players or otherwise unwilling to draft them when they can.  Looking from the present forward, Baalke is this team's GM.  Did he draft any WRs during his two year tenure as GM here?  Is there any indication he is able to identify quality WRs going forward?

2.

1. No I'm not giving Dave any credit for getting him as a UDFA.  Hurns chose to come here because he knew the WR position was weak and that he would make the team, he could of went to any team.

.

2.  I don't really care about the previous regime's before Caldwell or what they done.  I'm saying I think Baalke will do better than Dave.  I think Baalke has improved as a GM since his time in SF.

3. It's irrelevant to me what happened to me before DC.  I'm saying I think we can do better than what Dave did at WR in the next 5 years. I'm glad Baalke didn't take a WR tough just to take when Lloyd was there to trade up for. When a WR falls to us I can see Baalke and Doug pulling the trigger

---

Look at where the team was when Caldwell took over.  The team had so many different needs and so few draft picks, he couldn't help but to pass up a great player, irrespective of position.  In 1989, Dallas drafted Troy Aikman-a great player.  In doing so, they passed up on great players Derrick Thomas, Barry Sanders, and Deion Sanders. Did that mean they didn't think those were great players?  Did that mean they weren't capable of identifying great platers?   Passing up on several great WRs in the absence of a larger context is not conclusive of anything.

1.  As for not giving credit for Hurns, keep in mind that Caldwell never had to pursue/sign Hurns as an UDFA.  He could have prusued and signed any number of less talented players.  Furthermore, Hurns was better than just about all of the receivers who the team actually drafted.  Yes, he deserves credit for Hurns.  But even assumng you don't give credit for Hurns, it still doesn't make the case this team has proven itself capable of drafting quality WRs outside of Caldwell.

2.  For the purposes of this discussion, I am not advancing the theory that Caldwell was any good.  I am advancing the theory that it's not as easy for this organization to draft a quality WR as you assert.  If you completely remove Caldwell from the occasion, or reflexively put Caldwell's picks in the worst possible light, this franchise has not otherwise proven competent at identifying talent at the WR position.

3.  There are so many internal contradictions in your argument here I'm not sure what to make of it.  You say the Jaguars' past at drafting WR is irrelevant to you, yet two sentences later, go into this litany of bypassed WRs under Caldwell.  Furthermore, if all you are talking about is the present and future, it still doesn't establish how this team is able to surpass the team's ability to draft a WR under Caldwell.  Having a bunch of WRs come into the league is moot if the team is unable to identify those players or otherwise unwilling to draft them when they can.  Looking from the present forward, Baalke is this team's GM.  Did he draft any WRs during his two year tenure as GM here?  Is there any indication he is able to identify quality WRs going forward?

2.

1. No I'm not giving Dave any credit for getting him as a UDFA.  Hurns chose to come here because he knew the WR position was weak and that he would make the team, he could of went to any team.

.

2.  I don't really care about the previous regime's before Caldwell or what they done.  I'm saying I think Baalke will do better than Dave.  I think Baalke has improved as a GM since his time in SF.

3. It's irrelevant to me what happened to me before DC.  I'm saying I think we can do better than what Dave did at WR in the next 5 years.  I'm glad Baalke didn't take a WR tough just to take  when Lloyd was there to trade up for.  When a WR falls to us I can see Baalke and Doug pulling the trigger

Link?  Any proof at all?

---

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

---

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

Not a great record at all. None of those guys made it to 2nd contracts here as well. Which is telling. The best draft class he had was in 2016 when he landed Ramsey, Jack and Ngakoue. Again, none of them are here anymore, and the least impressive guy of that trio, Jack, earned a 2nd contract and never lived up to the hype or responsibilities of being able to truly man the mike. 

We knew this recent draft class was going to be top heavy at WR and we knew if you wanted an "X" receiver you were going to have to trade up or trade down to make the value fit. Or, trade for a proven player. This team is not a proven player away from making a run at the Superbowl, nor was it in any real position to fork over valuable draft picks to move back up for a receiver. 

I honestly liked Baalke's approach to this off season. For all intensive purposes. His draft class from last year may end up shaping up pretty well this year. You have four starters for sure in Lawrence, Campbell, Little & Cisco. Pretty decent haul there. Etienne is also back in the fold. If he ends up being "the guy" on this offense. That's one of the better draft classes this franchise has seen in a decade+. 

This year they clearly had a goal in mind of shoring up the pass protection, backfilling some key loses at Center and Guard. And, they did the best they could with what the market presented to them at WR and TE. 

The biggest thing they did was address every single aspect and level on defense. They shored up the front seven, they added another solid corner into the secondary and they're trying to clearly establish a divisional edge by shutting down the running game which is heavily featured within this division. The real burden of proof this year is going to fall on the same two jobs it always falls back on though the most in this sport. The Quarterback and the Headcoach. It's that simple. However, you can make their jobs a whole hell of a lot easier by keeping the points down on the scoreboard with a stout defense. We'll see though. 

We either have the next Sean Payton/Drew Brees or Andy Reid/Patrick Mahomes in the making here with Trevor Lawrence & Doug Pederson, or, we don't. Time will tell. However, we should see significant strides this year. For better or worse.

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

Caldwell was a horrible GM and anyone who says otherwise is Delusional. You are what your record says you are. WE were not just bad under Caldwell, we were historically bad. How many top 5 draft picks did he bust on? He even decided to be the smartest man in the room and draft Black Bortles 3rd overall. A guy who isn't/wasn't a natural thrower of the football. Caldwell may by some reports be a big reason why Ramsey wanted out of here so much as well. People love to put the blame all on Coughlin but I don't think it was the case. Dave was terrible for this team.

---

Look at where the team was when Caldwell took over.  The team had so many different needs and so few draft picks, he couldn't help but to pass up a great player, irrespective of position.  In 1989, Dallas drafted Troy Aikman-a great player.  In doing so, they passed up on great players Derrick Thomas, Barry Sanders, and Deion Sanders. Did that mean they didn't think those were great players?  Did that mean they weren't capable of identifying great platers?   Passing up on several great WRs in the absence of a larger context is not conclusive of anything.

1.  As for not giving credit for Hurns, keep in mind that Caldwell never had to pursue/sign Hurns as an UDFA.  He could have prusued and signed any number of less talented players.  Furthermore, Hurns was better than just about all of the receivers who the team actually drafted.  Yes, he deserves credit for Hurns.  But even assumng you don't give credit for Hurns, it still doesn't make the case this team has proven itself capable of drafting quality WRs outside of Caldwell.

2.  For the purposes of this discussion, I am not advancing the theory that Caldwell was any good.  I am advancing the theory that it's not as easy for this organization to draft a quality WR as you assert.  If you completely remove Caldwell from the occasion, or reflexively put Caldwell's picks in the worst possible light, this franchise has not otherwise proven competent at identifying talent at the WR position.

3.  There are so many internal contradictions in your argument here I'm not sure what to make of it.  You say the Jaguars' past at drafting WR is irrelevant to you, yet two sentences later, go into this litany of bypassed WRs under Caldwell.  Furthermore, if all you are talking about is the present and future, it still doesn't establish how this team is able to surpass the team's ability to draft a WR under Caldwell.  Having a bunch of WRs come into the league is moot if the team is unable to identify those players or otherwise unwilling to draft them when they can.  Looking from the present forward, Baalke is this team's GM.  Did he draft any WRs during his two year tenure as GM here?  Is there any indication he is able to identify quality WRs going forward?

2.

2.  I don't really care about the previous regime's before Caldwell or what they done.  I'm saying I think Baalke will do better than Dave.  I think Baalke has improved as a GM since his time in SF.

3. It's irrelevant to me what happened to me before DC.  I'm saying I think we can do better than what Dave did at WR in the next 5 years.  I'm glad Baalke didn't take a WR tough just to take  when Lloyd was there to trade up for.  When a WR falls to us I can see Baalke and Doug pulling the trigger

2.  But what is that based upon?  In SF, he managed to draft a bunch of stud defensive players, including Aldon Smith, Eric Reid, Deforest bucknet, Arik Armstead.  Why does he have your faith when it comes to drafting receivers?

3.  Though pre draft, I wanted the team to take a WR, given how the draft played out, I'm glad, for instance, they took Devin Lloyd.  That said, until he manages to draft a stud WR, I will remain skeptical regarding his eye for talent at the position.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

I think a fair sample size for Baalke was his entire SF career as GM (2011-2015) and his two years as Jaguars' GM.  That's seven drafts total.  Given how easy it supposedly is to find WRs in the draft, for him to not have ANY competent WRs drafted furing that stint is telling, irrespective of how many first round picks he spent at the position.

As for Caldwell, I don't assert he had a great record as a GM generally, or a great record in drafting WRs specifically.  But it's beyond dispute he was better at drafting at the position than any other GM we've ever had.

TC's forays into drafting at the position were disasters.

In 1996, he spent a lot of late round draft picks at the position, with almost nothing to show for them.  His biggest hit was Reggie Barlow, who had one Pro bowl season as a punt returner.  1996 was a great WR draft, that featured, among others, WR Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens.

In 1998, he used a late pick on Alvis Whitted, who had arguably the biggest and worst drop of a pass in team history in the second half of the AFC Championship game in 1999.  For his entire Jaguars career, he had a grand total of 17 catches.  Keep in mind, his initial plan was to trade up in that draft for Curtis Enis, and that was with Randy Moss on the board.  

In 2000 he drafted R Jay Soward in the first round, and came back with WR Emmanuel Smith in the 4th.  Do we really need to re hash that?

In 2001m he used a 7th round pick in Richmond Flowers, and in 2002 he spent a late pick on Kendall Newsome.

Out of all of those year, the only remotely productive drafted WR was Reggie Barlow, and that was as a punt returner.

He was followed by Shack Harris.

Harris wasted draft picks on Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford, Chad Owens, Mike Sims Walker and John Broussard.  Wilford was probably the best out of that group, and he ran at best a 4.7 40.  He never made any Pro Bowls, though he did have one noteworthy game.

Gene Smith?  We've long established he never drafted any Pro bowl players and he was clearly the worst GM in team history.  His last year, he drafted Justin Blackmon, who very clearly had the talent to be a star, but had unmitigated substance dependence problems.  He easily ranks as one of the biggest draft disappointments in team history.  There was also a mid round gamble on Jarret Dillard out of Rice who never amounted to anything for us. 

In two seasons, Baalke has yet to draft a WR for the Jaguars.

Observing that Caldwell was the best at drafting WRs in this group is not the same as saying Caldwell was a good GM.  But "in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king..."  WHen it comes to drafting acquiring productive rookie WRs, Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history.

Caldwell is the best of a bad group when it came to identifying/drafting WR talent in the draft.  Again, that doesn't emphasize how good he was, but how bad the organization's GMs as a whole have been when it comes to drafting WRs.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

1. No I'm not giving Dave any credit for getting him as a UDFA.  Hurns chose to come here because he knew the WR position was weak and that he would make the team, he could of went to any team.

.

2.  I don't really care about the previous regime's before Caldwell or what they done.  I'm saying I think Baalke will do better than Dave.  I think Baalke has improved as a GM since his time in SF.

3. It's irrelevant to me what happened to me before DC.  I'm saying I think we can do better than what Dave did at WR in the next 5 years.  I'm glad Baalke didn't take a WR tough just to take  when Lloyd was there to trade up for.  When a WR falls to us I can see Baalke and Doug pulling the trigger

Link?  Any proof at all?

Link for what?  UDFA's are able to pick which team they want to go too. He set the record for Miami receiving yards in a season.  He had plenty of options if you use that little peanut of yours, you shouldn't need a link

---

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

If you are grading that I would say a C- at best.

---

2.  I don't really care about the previous regime's before Caldwell or what they done.  I'm saying I think Baalke will do better than Dave.  I think Baalke has improved as a GM since his time in SF.

3. It's irrelevant to me what happened to me before DC.  I'm saying I think we can do better than what Dave did at WR in the next 5 years.  I'm glad Baalke didn't take a WR tough just to take  when Lloyd was there to trade up for.  When a WR falls to us I can see Baalke and Doug pulling the trigger

2.  But what is that based upon?  In SF, he managed to draft a bunch of stud defensive players, including Aldon Smith, Eric Reid, Deforest bucknet, Arik Armstead.  Why does he have your faith when it comes to drafting receivers?

3.  Though pre draft, I wanted the team to take a WR, given how the draft played out, I'm glad, for instance, they took Devin Lloyd.  That said, until he manages to draft a stud WR, I will remain skeptical regarding his eye for talent at the position.

Lololol.  Bullseye, you are one of the best writers on the board and could probably write amazing books.  But, sometimes you just try way too hard and it just doesn't add up.  

2.  Just based on what he has done In these last couple of drafts.  Of course we have to see how it plays out but some people just get better at their jobs with experience.  I don't think Baalke is the same GM as he was when he was with SF.  He's faced alot of criticism and I don't think he is [BLEEP].  I'm sure he has looked back in his past and re evaluated his previous mistakes.  We shall see how it plays out.  

3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

---

I'm not going to quote because it has gotten so long but will weigh in on the Caldwell/Baalke wide receiver conversation.

In regards Baalke never drafting a "stud wide receiver", this is true.  However, what is the sample size?  Yes, he clearly made a mistake drafting A.J. Jenkins at #30.  That's one mistake.  What else?  That was the only time he spent a first rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a second rounder on wide receiver.  He never spent a third rounder on wide receiver.  All of his other drafted wide receivers were day 3 picks, so it seems a little unfair to criticize him for those picks not turning into studs, particularly if you are going to praise Caldwell.       

As for Caldwell, he hit on Allen Robinson, but otherwise I would consider his record mixed at best.  Below are his drafted wide receivers (in order of how high they were drafted):

Round 2 (#39 overall) - Marqise Lee - He only had 2,184 yards and 8 TD's over 5 years.  Yes, he had injuries, but even if you pro-rate out his seasons, he was never on pace for a 1,000 yard season even when he was at his best.  Considering he was a #39 overall selection, this was not a good pick.

Round 2 (#42 overall) - Laviska Shenault - He's only been in the league for 2 years, so it is still to be determined, but so far, does not look like a good pick.  He only has 1,219 yards and 5 TD's over two years and is known for making drops.  Also, keep in mind that in the very same draft, Caldwell passed on Justin Jefferson (Mel Kiper's best available) with the #20 pick in favor of K'Lavon Chaisson and then choosing to wait to take a wide receiver.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - Allen Robinson - Great pick.  No argument there.  However, if the issue is Caldwell's wide receiver scouting ability, keep in mind that he selected Marqise Lee over Allen Robinson with an earlier pick in the very same draft.

Round 2 (#61 overall) - D.J. Chark - He's been hampered by injuries, so he could be considered still to be determined.  Personally, I like him.  I think he might have upside.  He was a pro-bowl alternate one year.  However, NFL teams showed very little interest in him as an unrestricted free agent this off-season.  Despite record money being spent, he could only get a modest "prove it" type deal. 

Round 4 (#101 overall) - Ace Sanders - Out of the league with only 539 receiving yards.

Round 4 (#110 overall) Dede Westbrook - He had 1,788 receiving yards through 5 seasons, but only 68 last year.  He currently can't find a team that even wants him on their 90 man roster.  

Round 5 (#139 overall) - Rashad Greene - Out of the league with only 185 receiving yards.

Round 5 (#165 overall) - Collin Johnson - He made the team as a rookie, but was unable to make the Jaguars 53 man roster in year 2.  He's still active in NFL, but only has 377 receiving yards through two years.

Round 7 (#220 overall) - Neal Sterling - Out of the league with only 239 receiving yards.

That's not a great record.

I think a fair sample size for Baalke was his entire SF career as GM (2011-2015) and his two years as Jaguars' GM.  That's seven drafts total.  Given how easy it supposedly is to find WRs in the draft, for him to not have ANY competent WRs drafted furing that stint is telling, irrespective of how many first round picks he spent at the position.

As for Caldwell, I don't assert he had a great record as a GM generally, or a great record in drafting WRs specifically.  But it's beyond dispute he was better at drafting at the position than any other GM we've ever had.

TC's forays into drafting at the position were disasters.

In 1996, he spent a lot of late round draft picks at the position, with almost nothing to show for them.  His biggest hit was Reggie Barlow, who had one Pro bowl season as a punt returner.  1996 was a great WR draft, that featured, among others, WR Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens.

In 1998, he used a late pick on Alvis Whitted, who had arguably the biggest and worst drop of a pass in team history in the second half of the AFC Championship game in 1999.  For his entire Jaguars career, he had a grand total of 17 catches.  Keep in mind, his initial plan was to trade up in that draft for Curtis Enis, and that was with Randy Moss on the board.  

In 2000 he drafted R Jay Soward in the first round, and came back with WR Emmanuel Smith in the 4th.  Do we really need to re hash that?

In 2001m he used a 7th round pick in Richmond Flowers, and in 2002 he spent a late pick on Kendall Newsome.

Out of all of those year, the only remotely productive drafted WR was Reggie Barlow, and that was as a punt returner.

He was followed by Shack Harris.

Harris wasted draft picks on Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford, Chad Owens, Mike Sims Walker and John Broussard.  Wilford was probably the best out of that group, and he ran at best a 4.7 40.  He never made any Pro Bowls, though he did have one noteworthy game.

Gene Smith?  We've long established he never drafted any Pro bowl players and he was clearly the worst GM in team history.  His last year, he drafted Justin Blackmon, who very clearly had the talent to be a star, but had unmitigated substance dependence problems.  He easily ranks as one of the biggest draft disappointments in team history.  There was also a mid round gamble on Jarret Dillard out of Rice who never amounted to anything for us. 

In two seasons, Baalke has yet to draft a WR for the Jaguars.

Observing that Caldwell was the best at drafting WRs in this group is not the same as saying Caldwell was a good GM.  But "in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king..."  WHen it comes to drafting acquiring productive rookie WRs, Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history.

Caldwell is the best of a bad group when it came to identifying/drafting WR talent in the draft.  Again, that doesn't emphasize how good he was, but how bad the organization's GMs as a whole have been when it comes to drafting WRs.

You say this yet you don't think we can do better than Caldwell lol.  I don't care if we win zero games this year and Baalke gets fired, the odds to me is that we can find a better GM than Dave Caldwell.  All you have to do is look around the league. If you put the top WRs names in a bowl and it's our pick and draw a name you have a better chance to hit. Odds alone!

---

2.  But what is that based upon?  In SF, he managed to draft a bunch of stud defensive players, including Aldon Smith, Eric Reid, Deforest bucknet, Arik Armstead.  Why does he have your faith when it comes to drafting receivers?

3.  Though pre draft, I wanted the team to take a WR, given how the draft played out, I'm glad, for instance, they took Devin Lloyd.  That said, until he manages to draft a stud WR, I will remain skeptical regarding his eye for talent at the position.

Lololol.  Bullseye, you are one of the best writers on the board and could probably write amazing books.  But, sometimes you just try way too hard and it just doesn't add up.  

2.  Just based on what he has done In these last couple of drafts.  Of course we have to see how it plays out but some people just get better at their jobs with experience.  I don't think Baalke is the same GM as he was when he was with SF.  He's faced alot of criticism and I don't think he is [BLEEP].  I'm sure he has looked back in his past and re evaluated his previous mistakes.  We shall see how it plays out.  

3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

---

I think a fair sample size for Baalke was his entire SF career as GM (2011-2015) and his two years as Jaguars' GM.  That's seven drafts total.  Given how easy it supposedly is to find WRs in the draft, for him to not have ANY competent WRs drafted furing that stint is telling, irrespective of how many first round picks he spent at the position.

As for Caldwell, I don't assert he had a great record as a GM generally, or a great record in drafting WRs specifically.  But it's beyond dispute he was better at drafting at the position than any other GM we've ever had.

TC's forays into drafting at the position were disasters.

In 1996, he spent a lot of late round draft picks at the position, with almost nothing to show for them.  His biggest hit was Reggie Barlow, who had one Pro bowl season as a punt returner.  1996 was a great WR draft, that featured, among others, WR Marvin Harrison and Terrell Owens.

In 1998, he used a late pick on Alvis Whitted, who had arguably the biggest and worst drop of a pass in team history in the second half of the AFC Championship game in 1999.  For his entire Jaguars career, he had a grand total of 17 catches.  Keep in mind, his initial plan was to trade up in that draft for Curtis Enis, and that was with Randy Moss on the board.  

In 2000 he drafted R Jay Soward in the first round, and came back with WR Emmanuel Smith in the 4th.  Do we really need to re hash that?

In 2001m he used a 7th round pick in Richmond Flowers, and in 2002 he spent a late pick on Kendall Newsome.

Out of all of those year, the only remotely productive drafted WR was Reggie Barlow, and that was as a punt returner.

He was followed by Shack Harris.

Harris wasted draft picks on Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, Ernest Wilford, Chad Owens, Mike Sims Walker and John Broussard.  Wilford was probably the best out of that group, and he ran at best a 4.7 40.  He never made any Pro Bowls, though he did have one noteworthy game.

Gene Smith?  We've long established he never drafted any Pro bowl players and he was clearly the worst GM in team history.  His last year, he drafted Justin Blackmon, who very clearly had the talent to be a star, but had unmitigated substance dependence problems.  He easily ranks as one of the biggest draft disappointments in team history.  There was also a mid round gamble on Jarret Dillard out of Rice who never amounted to anything for us. 

In two seasons, Baalke has yet to draft a WR for the Jaguars.

Observing that Caldwell was the best at drafting WRs in this group is not the same as saying Caldwell was a good GM.  But "in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king..."  WHen it comes to drafting acquiring productive rookie WRs, Caldwell's draft picks of Robinson, Lee, Westbrook, Hurns and Chark are by far superior to any other WRs drafted by any other GMs in team history.

Caldwell is the best of a bad group when it came to identifying/drafting WR talent in the draft.  Again, that doesn't emphasize how good he was, but how bad the organization's GMs as a whole have been when it comes to drafting WRs.

You say this yet you don't think we can do better than Caldwell lol.  I don't care if we win zero games this year and Baalke gets fired, the odds to me is that we can find a better GM than Dave Caldwell.  All you have to do is look around the league.  If you put the top WRs names in a bowl and it's our pick and draw a name you have a better chance to hit.  Odds alone!

No.

Earlier in this thread I said we SHOULD be able to do better in terms of drafting WRs.

But this franchise has repeatedly proven incapable of drafting stud WRs no matter how you slice it.  Two (2) drafted Pro Bowlers at the position in 28 years (excluding the one year of Reggie Barlow)?!?  Seriously?!?

Do I assert Caldwell was the best Jaguars' GM overall?

No.  I'd argue that distinction goes to Shack or TC.

But looking at the records in terms of drafting WRs, Caldwell is the best of the five GMs we've had thus far.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

By the way, there seems to have been a convenient conflation of the issues here.

Let's clarify:

The issue originally under discussion was this organization's inability to identify and effectively draft WR talent.

It's NOT whether Caldwell was a good overall GM.

All of the GM comparisons have been within the context of drafting competent or better WRs.

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Lololol.  Bullseye, you are one of the best writers on the board and could probably write amazing books.  But, sometimes you just try way too hard and it just doesn't add up.  

2.  Just based on what he has done In these last couple of drafts.  Of course we have to see how it plays out but some people just get better at their jobs with experience.  I don't think Baalke is the same GM as he was when he was with SF.  He's faced alot of criticism and I don't think he is [BLEEP].  I'm sure he has looked back in his past and re evaluated his previous mistakes.  We shall see how it plays out.  

3.  I wanted of like a WR as well until I seen how the board fell.  I'd take Lloyd in that trade over any WR at 33.

---

You say this yet you don't think we can do better than Caldwell lol.  I don't care if we win zero games this year and Baalke gets fired, the odds to me is that we can find a better GM than Dave Caldwell.  All you have to do is look around the league.  If you put the top WRs names in a bowl and it's our pick and draw a name you have a better chance to hit.  Odds alone!

No.

Earlier in this thread I said we SHOULD be able to do better in terms of drafting WRs.

But this franchise has repeatedly proven incapable of drafting stud WRs no matter how you slice it.  Two (2) drafted Pro Bowlers at the position in 28 years (excluding the one year of Reggie Barlow)?!?  Seriously?!?

Do I assert Caldwell was the best Jaguars' GM overall?

No.  I'd argue that distinction goes to Shack or TC.

But looking at the records in terms of drafting WRs, Caldwell is the best of the five GMs we've had thus far.

Agreed 100%.  My point is as bad as we have been I think the odds are finally on our side.  A squirrel finds a nut every once in a while and we are bound to hit at some point

---

By the way, there seems to have been a convenient conflation of the issues here.

Let's clarify:

The issue originally under discussion was this organization's inability to identify and effectively draft WR talent.

It's NOT whether Caldwell was a good overall GM.

All of the GM comparisons have been within the context of drafting competent or better WRs.

It had nothing to do with the history of this organization.  It was if we can find better WR talent than Caldwell.

---

I used to love how Vic Ketchman would say receivers are a dime a dozen.

I loved Vic's columns but man is he wrong on this. We've had a drought of WR talent ever since Thunder and Lightning moved on.

---

You're Welcome.

I used to love how Vic Ketchman would say receivers are a dime a dozen.

I loved Vic's columns but man is he wrong on this. We've had a drought of WR talent ever since Thunder and Lightning moved on.

Vic was saying that in the context of Brady and Manning constantly making marginally talented receivers into statistical superstars.  There are dozens of receivers who could put up pro bowl numbers with the right QB throwing to them.  Vic just took it too far.

---

My fellow southpaw Mark Brunell will probably always be my favorite Jaguar.

No.

Earlier in this thread I said we SHOULD be able to do better in terms of drafting WRs.

But this franchise has repeatedly proven incapable of drafting stud WRs no matter how you slice it.  Two (2) drafted Pro Bowlers at the position in 28 years (excluding the one year of Reggie Barlow)?!?  Seriously?!?

Do I assert Caldwell was the best Jaguars' GM overall?

No.  I'd argue that distinction goes to Shack or TC.

But looking at the records in terms of drafting WRs, Caldwell is the best of the five GMs we've had thus far.

Agreed 100%.  My point is as bad as we have been I think the odds are finally on our side.  A squirrel finds a nut every once in a while and we are bound to hit at some point

---

By the way, there seems to have been a convenient conflation of the issues here.

Let's clarify:

The issue originally under discussion was this organization's inability to identify and effectively draft WR talent.

It's NOT whether Caldwell was a good overall GM.

All of the GM comparisons have been within the context of drafting competent or better WRs.

It had nothing to do with the history of this organization.  It was if we can find better WR talent than Caldwell.

(Emphasis added in last line)

Odds on our side?  You mean like the law of averages finally catching up to us?  Sorry, but I'd like better odds than that, especially considering we seem to finally have a franchise QB.

As for the issue/history of the organization. what did you mean by the last statement?  Who is the "we" to whom you refer?

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Agreed 100%.  My point is as bad as we have been I think the odds are finally on our side.  A squirrel finds a nut every once in a while and we are bound to hit at some point

---

It had nothing to do with the history of this organization.  It was if we can find better WR talent than Caldwell.

(Emphasis added in last line)

Odds on our side?  You mean like the law of averages finally catching up to us?  Sorry, but I'd like better odds than that, especially considering we seem to finally have a franchise QB.

As for the issue/history of the organization. what did you mean by the last statement?  Who is the "we" to whom you refer?

We, as in the Jags within the next 5 years I feel will have a better WR group than DC ever did. But yes I meant the odds finally catching up to us

---

I used to love how Vic Ketchman would say receivers are a dime a dozen.

I loved Vic's columns but man is he wrong on this. We've had a drought of WR talent ever since Thunder and Lightning moved on.

Vic was saying that in the context of Brady and Manning constantly making marginally talented receivers into statistical superstars.  There are dozens of receivers who could put up pro bowl numbers with the right QB throwing to them.  Vic just took it too far.

When were Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne ever "marginally talented?"

---

 

Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

Vic was saying that in the context of Brady and Manning constantly making marginally talented receivers into statistical superstars.  There are dozens of receivers who could put up pro bowl numbers with the right QB throwing to them.  Vic just took it too far.

When were Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne ever "marginally talented?"

I think he mean Stokes, Clark, our old TE from Den etc.

---