(05-26-2018, 11:17 AM)Jagfan44 Wrote:

(05-25-2018, 10:51 AM)MalabarJag Wrote: As I stated, I used Nobel prizes a a criterion because it was a readily available quantitative measure. I view it in the same way I view using the Pro Bowl to evaluate GMs. It's not really accurate, but it's not totally inaccurate either, and it's easy to compile.

I'm calling physics, chemistry, and biology (including medicine) the "hard"sciences that have Nobel prizes. The others are economics, literature, and peace. The criteria for those three prizes delve deeply into politics. The science prizes can be affected by political considerations too, but are generally more objective. Maybe you'd like to comment on whether the Swedes look favorably or unfavorably at a scientists from another Scandinavian country? Offhand, I'd guess that if anything it would be a political advantage to come from Finland in this case.

As far as "sticking up for my people" does that mean you are from Finland? If so, I'm always happy to see Jags fans from foreign countries, even the clueless Leftists who post about American politics. My post was about sticking up for my people, namely the US education system. I have many complaints about US schools, but I don't like to have them called inferior to some other country, especially from a foreigner posting here.

Now if you want to complain about my statements, at least do the math.

320 is 58 times more than 5.5.  The US has had a combined (roughly since it's from a Google search graph) 250 Nobels in Physics, Chemistry, and Biology, so, all things being equal, you'd expect 4 or 5 people from a country of 5.5 million to win a Nobel prize in those fields. The original poster claimed Finland has a better educational system, so that would imply there should be significantly more than 4 or 5. 

Only one Finn has ever won a Nobel prize in those categories.

There are, of course, many factors here. Many of the US citizens who won Nobel prizes were naturalized citizens educated in other countries. There's a time factor too since the discussion of educational quality is about recent times, so older Nobel prize winners don't apply. Considering the one Finn who won a Nobel prize had an education that predates the existence of Finland, that number goes to zero. We all know what happens when you divide by zero, the number of Americans educated in the US school system vs. the number of Finns educated in the Finnish school system becomes infinite.

And yes, none of this applies to school shootings. Like I said above, I was just defending my people.

Fair enough. I understand what hard sciences are, I just figured the word "difficult" was a better fit. 

Although I have lived here in the United States since I was three, I was born in Finland, thank you for asking. 

I can completely relate with you about sticking up for your country. I have been an American Citizen for many years. Although I do speak the language and I visit from time to time, I would never go back to Finland. With that said, I do recognize that some things are better in Europe and in a small country like Finland the socialist system works. I am more proud of the fact that I am an American than most people who were born here. The rights and liberties that we have here are not something that most of the world has. Not to mention, people here in the States can truly become something. With what I personally do for a living, between the small population and high taxes I would not be as successful in Finland as I can be here in this country.

When it comes to things that matter more to Finland, like Ice Hockey, I've got to root for them even if they are playing the U.S.

I understand there is a contradiction with Finland being socialist, in regards to high taxes and good schools, however you have to give credit to the Finnish school system. It is far and beyond better than the system we have in place here in the States. Does being a homogenous country help? IMO, yes, I won't deny that. To become a teacher in Finland you are required to have a Masters Degree and the profession itself is one that is respected. As far as the schools something that stands out to me is the fact that there are no Honors classes. Every student is treated the same. While the argument can be made that this holds some children back, other children are not in a place to feel inferior. I know when I was in High School I was there to play football, school did not interest me however having classmates that were in AP classes was absolutely a discouragement. 

Finland, having been a part of both Russia and Sweden at different times has had to face an uphill battle that many other countries have not, a good example being Sweden. Not that I am discreting Sweden in any way, but considering Finland had no choice but to fight on both sides of WWII while Sweden remained neutral. Finland did receive help from Sweden, while the UK declared war on us. This remains true to this day with a military designed not to attack, but to defend against yet another eventual Russian invasion. If you enjoy WWII history read about Finland during WWII, very interesting and as FLSportsGod pointed out, we whooped some Soviet behind!

Up until fairly recently the Finnish economy was based on natural resources, mainly timber. While timber is still a large part of the economy, Finland has done an outstanding job of investing in their future by making the school system what it is today. There are lots of tech companies coming out of Finland. While he may not have have won a Nobel Prize, Linus Torvalds created Linux and has been awarded numerous awards. We all know about Nokia, and a video game that I enjoy made by Supercell, Clash of Clans. I don't feel the need to Google this, but I can say with confidence that there is a correlation between the tech industry and schools. 

Obviously here in the U.S. we have tech giants, even Torvald himself is now a naturalized U.S. citizen just as I am. I would say Capitalism plays a large part, why be content with less money when you can make more here in America?

A bit off topic:
I love hearing a perspective like this. In my opinion, most Americans take for granted what opportunities they are provided at birth. Nowhere else in the world can you prosper as you can here, if you are willing just to put forth the effort. On the flip, there is also an inherent ignorance of Americans believing everything the U.S. does is better than everyone else. There is a ton we could learn from other countries and visa' versa. One thing that is evident in almost all countries versus what we have here in America, is national pride. Sadly, that no longer exists in the United States, at least on the level of most countries.

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