(07-16-2019, 04:25 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: First of all Bullseye let me start off by saying that you are a valued and respected member of this community.  I don't want to turn this discussion personal.  We can agree to disagree along political lines and it doesn't change the respect that I have for you as a valued member of our board.


I share your sentiments.  There is considerable danger in vituperative dissonance stemming from discussions on this board, which is why I am generally loathe to come here.  As I said in a different thread, I don't want opinions formed here to taint the overall view of posters whose football takes and loyalty to the Jaguars I have grown to really really appreciate and respect over the years (you are included in that...and Kane too, for that matter).

(07-15-2019, 07:51 PM)Bullseye Wrote: It just so happens the target of his rants happen to be women of color?

In this case, yes it did "just so happen" to be minority women.  One factor that you seem to overlook is the fact that they are young freshman members of Congress who happen to be very far left on the political spectrum.  His rant had nothing to do with their ethnicity and everything to do with how they have conducted themselves.

Their status as freshmen members of Congress or their place on the political spectrum does not, in any way, mitigate their rights to voice dissent.  There have been others with whom the President has disagreed, but his most persistent targets have been persons of color.  It is noteworthy nobody else (read: white) has been urged to leave the country by this president.  The whole "come back" argument is quite silly.  Three of the four congresswomen were born in this country.  The fourth (Omar) is a U.S. citizen, and has been since she was a teenager.  Why should she be urged to go back to Somalia because she disagrees with this president's policies?  Why should she have to split her time between the country to which she has pledged allegiance when she became a citizen and a country she no longer calls home?  Why does she have the burden of fixing all of Somalia's ills before uttering policy disagreements with Trump?  Not one white male congressmen was ever required to fix all of the problems in their state before voicing disagreements.  For that matter, Trump didn't fix ANY problems in New York as a private citizen, yet that didn't preclude him from attempting to impugn and delegitimize former President Obama with the birther thing and the query into his college qualifications.  On the issue of how the freshmen congresswomen conducted themselves, Trump is the very last person to lecture anyone on how to conduct themselves.  If Trump truly had no racial animus driving his comments, tweets on this matter, had any leadership traits and instincts, and had a legitimate interest in having a unified country, he would make it a point to clarify his comments and urge unity.  Conservative whites threw a hissy fit when Obama said the cop acted stupidly for arresting professor Henry Louis Gates for breaking into his own home.  Obama brought professor gates and the cop for the beer summit and spoke repeatedly on the need for unity.  Trump has never come close to doing that.


Spare me the nonsense about us being "human beings."  This country's history has treated "human beings" quite differently based upon skin color.  Omar is American.  Full fledged...wholly legalized American Citizen with all of the rights that flow from being a citizen-as are the other three Congresswomen to which he refers.  

While you might think that my belief that there is only one race, that being the human race is "nonsense", it's what I believe and how I was raised.  I don't speak for anyone else but myself regarding that.  Unlike the far left that practically preaches identity politics, I view people for who they are and the "content of their character rather than the color of their skin".

If this is a true reflection of your views, you represent an aberration for someone on the right.



Where the hell does Trumo get off telling anyone-especially legal U.S. citizens-to leave the country, anyhow?  The fact he is urging these four United States citizens to leave the country almost as urgently as those in cages along the border shows that legal status is but flimsy pretext for those policies and proclamations.

President Trump clearly stated that if they or anyone else is unhappy with our country they are free to leave.  As far as the people in "cages" along the border, they are not being held against their will.  They can return to their country of origin at any time.  They are being detained because they broke the law by entering the country illegally.  Citizens every day are detained in "cages" (jail) for the same reason every day.


Is this really what you are arguing?  First off, it doesn't answer the question of where Trump gets off telling legal US citizens to leave the country.  Secondly your argument about the immigrants in cages absolutely boggles the mind to a ton of different levels.  They are not being held against their will?!?  You mean to suggest they traveled thousands of miles-some by foot for the "privilege" of being locked in overcrowded cages with no cots or access to showers, changes of clothing, etc?  THAT was their plan?!?  They can return to their country of origin at any time?  Really?  How are the children, ranging in age from toddler to teenager, separated from their parents, supposed to accomplish this?  Keep in mind, this completely IGNORES the very reasons many of them left their countries of origin in the first place.  How desperate do you have to be to leave the only place you've known, uproot your family, walk throughout Central America and up the length of Mexico to reach this country?!?  Their journeys here was every bit as courageous as those of the Pilgrims who fled England.If life for them were tenable in their countries of origin, they wouldn't have come here.  Also consider many of those detained-toddlers or otherwise-have been moved to facilities around the country away from the border.  How are they supposed to return to their country of origin?  Even if you opened the door to the facilities and told them see ya later, they'd still have to walk back to the borders, potentially extending their stays here for months.  I am straining to avoid personal invective here, I really am.  But this argument on this topic epitomizes the "distasteful, misguided, myopic and bigoted" views I referenced.  What of the people who emigrate from ostensibly "non [BLEEP] countries"
who overstay their visas?  They violate the immigration laws just like those crossing the southern border?  Are any of them in cages?

He mentioned that all they do is complain.  First off, when does criticizing the president constitute hatred of the country?!?  Under that tacit rationale, Trump should have exited stage right when he began his wholly baseless attacks on former President Obama, and should have taken the bigoted and intransigent fascists on the right with him.

The thing is yes they do complain and point out things that might be wrong, yet vote "no" on bills that would address the situation solely because it would be a "win" in their eyes for the current President.  Criticizing The President is one thing, but when falsely labeled and accused is a whole other thing.


You argued this in the administration immediately following the Obama administration?  Seriously?  Did we forget Mitch McConnell ordering all Republicans to vote against every Obama proposed legislation, even when, in the estimation of Republican congressmen, it was good for the country?  https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/t...dge-044311  Did we forget McConnell's theft of the Obama Supreme court appointment?!?  Funny you mention being falsely labeled and accused.  Let's see...starting with the "terrorist fist jab" and "palling around with terrorists," continuing with the birther conspiracy and allegations of being a "secret muslim" bent on instituting Sharia law and taking everyone's guns, continuing still with FEMA camps and the whole Jade Helm conspiracy, and countless other nonsensical tripe, NOW you have a problem with presidents being falsely labeled and accused?!? Surely you jest.

He cites allegedly anti semitic and pro al Qaeda sentiments uttered by Omar as a basis for them to leave. Again, by that rationale, Trump should be long gone from here.

So by your comment I assume that you agree that Representative Omar did not utter anti-semitic and pro al Qaeda sentiments?  If so, why should President Trump be "long gone"?

I agree that Omar did not make anti semitic and pro al Qaeda statements.  As I indicated above, I was taking Trump's assertions and logic at face value.


What enemies of this country has Trump NOT aligned himself with?  He supports the flying of the Confederate flag and the preservation of confederate monuments, which glorify a group of individuals who were willing to renounce citizenship in this country; a group founded-by its own admissions-upon principles opposite to the U.S. Constitution those of you on the right so reflexively yammer about revering; a group that took up arms against American troops, ultimately costing over 600,000 American lives.

I also support the flying of the Confederate flag and the preservation of confederate monuments.  Like it or not it's a part of our country's history.  The Civil War is a whole other topic of conversation.


Like it or not, the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal is part of our history.  Where is the clamoring for memorials commemorating that...or the Teapot-Dome scandal..or any number of historical events and figures not memorialized in sculpture?  These Confederate memorials are not about history.  They are tributes to white supremacy.

He supported the "very fine people" of Charlottesville, who flew Confederate flags and Nazi flags.  For those of you who conveniently choose to forget, this country was at war with the Nazis between 1941-1945.  By the way, the Nazis were coalesced around anti semitism, as evidenced by "some very fine people" of Charlottesville who chanted "Jews will not replace us."

He bends over backwards to fellate Putin, former head of the KGB, the CIA equivalent of this country's biggest 20th century adversary, the former Soviet Union. His relations with Russians is unlike any U.S. president that came before him.  Furthermore, he engaged-without preconditions-one of the last remaining communist countries in the world-North Korea, who joined the Soviet union in opposing the United States, to the point where they went to war against us.


Regarding North Korea the call from the left has always been "diplomacy" yet those on the left including yourself criticize him for improving relations and attempting to solve differences diplomatically rather than going to war.  Rather than celebrate a historic act there is nothing but criticisim and the far left alleging that he is "with" them. It's a far greater act than any President before him ever achieved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjI5GgfNl5Q




The fact is, this country was founded on dissent.  Some of the greatest moments in this country involved reasoned, passionate debate over genuine philosophical/political differences on how best to govern this country.  The First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees the right to free speech thusly, in relevant part:  "Congress shall make no law...or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;  or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for the redress of grievances." There is nothing in Article II that negates this, or for that matter, the rights of members of Congress to criticize sitting presidents.   There are any number of Supreme court cases that have the most eloquent advocacy of policy-in majority and dissenting opinion-you will ever see.  As distasteful, misguided, myopic, and yes, bigoted as I find many takes on the right, without question I affirm your rights to voice those views without having to excuse yourself from the country.  How dare this egotistical and bigoted [BLEEP] stain invite anyone who dares to disagree with him to leave the country?!?  If his policies are the right ones, he should have no problem defending the logic of them to his critics.  Instead, he divides this country again along racial and ethnic lines with his blatant hypocrisy and betrays the traditions that made this country great.  As many times as the right accused former President Obama of being a dictator, not once did he try to get his critics to leave the country because they dared disagree with him.  Not once did he call Fox news and other right leaning media "the enemy of the people."

As far as the part of your comment that I highlighted in blue let me say this.  I happen to be one of those people "on the right".  Please explain to me how my core values of "God, Family, Country" are "distasteful, misguided, myopic and bigoted".  President Trump's policy of defending our border follows The Constitution which he swore to protect and defend.  He shouldn't have to "defend" the fact that he is enforcing the law.  His invitation to anyone that isn't happy with our country is welcome to leave isn't about "him" or "his policy" , it's about our current policy in place and enforced by many presidents before him including President Obama.

Again Bullseye I don't mean anything personal.  I respect you and value your opinion as a member of this community.  I welcome open debate and discussion as long as we keep it civil, honest and stay away from the "name calling" and accusations (ie. "racist", "bigot" "xenophobe").  I have never met you personally but I am assuming that perhaps you are a black man.  Please correct me if I am wrong about that.  I personally am a Hispanic male in my 50's closer to 60.  I do have conservative values and am not afraid to say so.  Let's discuss it and let the other members of our community chime in.